Speculation: Summer 2018 off season roster discussion

[Maladroit]

Engelland played very well this season for the Knights

Theodore and Engelland together (794 minutes): 49.3% Corsi
Theodore without Engelland (222 minutes): 57.9% Corsi
Engelland without Theodore (536 minutes): 47.2% Corsi

Engelland is awful. The only Vegas defensemen with worse possession numbers than him were Garrison (who was quickly banished to the AHL) and Sbisa (who is widely regarded as terrible). And this was despite spending nearly 800 minutes playing with a possession stud in Theodore.

 

[Groo]

Theodore and Engelland together (794 minutes): 49.3% Corsi
Theodore without Engelland (222 minutes): 57.9% Corsi
Engelland without Theodore (536 minutes): 47.2% Corsi

Engelland is awful. The only Vegas defensemen with worse possession numbers than him were Garrison (who was quickly banished to the AHL) and Sbisa (who is widely regarded as terrible). And this was despite spending nearly 800 minutes playing with a possession stud in Theodore.

Did you watch him play or just look at some spread sheets ?

 

[Maladroit]

Did you watch him play or just look at some spread sheets ?

Have you watched him play? He skates like he's trapped in molasses and handles the puck like a hand grenade. He's one of the least talented NHLers I have ever seen. He's just big and physical and drops the gloves from time to time, that's the only reason he sticks around. He was literally just a 7th defenseman/enforcer until Calgary gave him that stupid contract.

 

[Groo]

Have you watched him play? He skates like he's trapped in molasses and handles the puck like a hand grenade. He's one of the least talented NHLers I have ever seen. He's just big and physical and drops the gloves from time to time, that's the only reason he sticks around. He was literally just a 7th defenseman/enforcer until Calgary gave him that stupid contract.

Yes, My old college roomate was stayng for a coupe of months for some training course.
He's from Nevada and adopted the Knights for the get go.
We went to Sports bars/resturants to catch dang near every game they played while he was a guest.
Plus the playoffs of course.
You ?

 

[Maladroit]

Yes, My old college roomate was stayng for a coupe of months for some training course.
He's from Nevada and adopted the Knights for the get go.
We went to Sports bars/resturants to catch dang near every game they played while he was a guest.
Plus the playoffs of course.
You ?

Yes, I've also seen almost every Vegas playoff game and have been watching Engelland for years now. I just described his play to you and showed you the numbers to back it up. He sucks dude.

 

[Groo]

Yes, I've also seen almost every Vegas playoff game and have been watching Engelland for years now. I just described his play to you and showed you the numbers to back it up. He sucks dude.

Yes, I recall him from the Pens.
He plays to his size.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Let's not forget that while Shea Theodore was considered a solid prospect, he was more project than established top talent. Similar to a young Chrisitan Ehrhoff, Jason Demers, or Justin Braun. He's ironed out many of the defensive quirks in his game in Vegas.

He was not similar to those in terms of how he was regarded. Theodore was a late 1st round pick. Ehrhoff was 4th round, Braun was 6th round, and Demers was 7th round. None of the Sharks three picks were considered solid prospects at the time of their drafts and none of them were this far along at 22 as Theodore is.

 

[wishman]

Assuming Kane deal is completed and Thornton re-signs, that gives us 10 top 9 forwards. With Sorenson and possibly Balcers likely able to fill in Top 9, that probably makes one forward expendable.

Who do folks think is most likely to go? I'm assuming they'll look to replenish draft picks or improve Defensive depth.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Assuming Kane deal is completed and Thornton re-signs, that gives us 10 top 9 forwards. With Sorenson and possibly Balcers likely able to fill in Top 9, that probably makes one forward expendable.

Who do folks think is most likely to go? I'm assuming they'll look to replenish draft picks or improve Defensive depth.

Until I hear otherwise, I still expect DW to be in the running for Tavares. With that in mind, it probably means that Boedker and Karlsson are out the door. If they miss out on Tavares, that would afford them the opportunity to pursue Jake Gardiner through a trade or Mike Green through free agency. How the Sharks decide to deal with Paul Martin could be interesting. Either he is bought out or the Sharks are trading him with someone like Labanc to have another team eat his last year. I could see a team like Carolina being interested in that kind of deal. Maybe Florida as well. But there's definitely a trade happening after this signing.

 

[Used As A Shield]

I wonder how the team would do with less of a shutdown pairing and better balance amongst the d-pairs. I wondered if the change in system was detrimental to the vlasic/braun pairing, but last year before the change they were also subpar for their standard, so I guess not?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I wonder how the team would do with less of a shutdown pairing and better balance amongst the d-pairs. I wondered if the change in system was detrimental to the vlasic/braun pairing, but last year before the change they were also subpar for their standard, so I guess not?

By the eye test, I think they actually improved slightly when we changed systems.

 

[Lebanezer]

Why do media pundits keep talking about Lamierello still being a good GM? He did little for the Leafs aside from drafting Matthews which was a no brainer. The media needs to stop pretending that his presence will suddenly make Tavares want to stay.

 

[OffSydes]

Why do media pundits keep talking about Lamierello still being a good GM? He did little for the Leafs aside from drafting Matthews which was a no brainer. The media needs to stop pretending that his presence will suddenly make Tavares want to stay.

Tavares is well known to hate 3rd jerseys and facial hair. Him staying on the island is a nobrainer now.

 

[Painful Quandary]

Tavares is well known to hate 3rd jerseys and facial hair. Him staying on the island is a nobrainer now.

Since the Islander's third jerseys were always bad, there might be some truth to that.

 

[Herschel]

I wonder how the team would do with less of a shutdown pairing and better balance amongst the d-pairs. I wondered if the change in system was detrimental to the vlasic/braun pairing, but last year before the change they were also subpar for their standard, so I guess not?

Anyone else find it interesting that both Vlasic and Braun had career-high point totals while being deployed almost entirely in a shutdown role? I bring this up mainly because of all the talk about that pairings decline.

Now don't get me wrong, I think partnering Vlasic with a top end skater and shifting Braun to the third pairing makes for a stronger unit but I think even without this the Sharks blueline is clearly in the top 1/3 of the league.

 

[Painful Quandary]

Anyone else find it interesting that both Vlasic and Braun had career-high point totals while being deployed almost entirely in a shutdown role? I bring this up mainly because of all the talk about that pairings decline.

That is interesting. It makes me think that pressure was put on Vlasic and Braun to score, and their defensive play has suffered as a result. There is too much emphasis on scoring from defense especially when the team has Brent Burns. And if the organization wants more scoring from defense, then why isn't Heed being played?

 

[Maladroit]

I honestly think Vlasic and especially Braun just got lucky on the point total front this season. In my opinion there are really only a handful of defensemen (Burns, Karlsson, Subban, Josi, a few others) who actively drive offense when they're on the ice. Most defensemen, certainly those of Vlasic and Braun's offensive skillset, are largely at the mercy of how the forwards in front of them perform in determining how many points they end up with at the end of the season. There are routine plays non-offensive defensemen make every game - outlet passes, blueline keep-ins, point shots - and they don't really have much control over whether those plays lead to goals or not. Points really aren't the best way to judge most defensemen's performance imo.

Basically when you get the amount of ice time behind quality forwards that Braun does, you're going to end up with a random 30-point season on occasion just by accident. That doesn't mean he was good this season (he was absolutely not).

 

[Pistol Pete]

Until I hear otherwise, I still expect DW to be in the running for Tavares. With that in mind, it probably means that Boedker and Karlsson are out the door. If they miss out on Tavares, that would afford them the opportunity to pursue Jake Gardiner through a trade or Mike Green through free agency. How the Sharks decide to deal with Paul Martin could be interesting. Either he is bought out or the Sharks are trading him with someone like Labanc to have another team eat his last year. I could see a team like Carolina being interested in that kind of deal. Maybe Florida as well. But there's definitely a trade happening after this signing.

I agree with you, PF. I still believe the Sharks will be in the running for Tavares until we hear otherwise. I also believe that resigning Kane will make the Sharks a more attractive option to Tavares.

We’ve done a fair amount of speculation about players to move in an effort to clear space this summer. Martin and Karlsson are the most logical players to move imo. DW can either buyout Martin or use a player (Labanc, Tierney, or prospect) to have a team take Martin’s last year on. Karlsson will be attractive to some team looking for cheap depth. Boedker would be next on that list imo, since his deal is easier to swallow at this point, paired with his play in the second half. Tierney is an interesting option as well, only if both Tavares and Thornton are on board.

 

[Lebanezer]

Anyone else find it interesting that both Vlasic and Braun had career-high point totals while being deployed almost entirely in a shutdown role? I bring this up mainly because of all the talk about that pairings decline.

Now don't get me wrong, I think partnering Vlasic with a top end skater and shifting Braun to the third pairing makes for a stronger unit but I think even without this the Sharks blueline is clearly in the top 1/3 of the league.

That was more a product of the system change than the players themselves I think. They sacrificed defense for offense and the regular and advanced stats reflected it in both directions.

 

[Maladroit]

If we can package Tierney with Martin to incentivize a team to take the latter's contract and can move Boedker for a pick without retaining salary then we'll have around $23mil to sign Tavares, Hertl, Thornton, Fehr and DeMelo. Doable if it's $12mil for Tavares, $5.5mil for Hertl, ~$3mil for Thornton and $1mil each for Fehr and DeMelo. Those cap hits for those players sound reasonable, the big ifs are being able to to rid ourselves of the entirety of Martin and Boedker's salaries.

 

[Hinterland]

If we can package Tierney with Martin to incentivize a team to take the latter's contract and can move Boedker for a pick without retaining salary then we'll have around $23mil to sign Tavares, Hertl, Thornton, Fehr and DeMelo. Doable if it's $12mil for Tavares, $5.5mil for Hertl, ~$3mil for Thornton and $1mil each for Fehr and DeMelo. Those cap hits for those players sound reasonable, the big ifs are being able to to rid ourselves of the entirety of Martin and Boedker's salaries.

Trading Boedker wouldn't be smart if they wanna win. I wouldn't do it unless they get a better player back who plays for less. I don't think that will be easy and if Wilson finds that guy he'll probably be extremely expensive.

 

[Maladroit]

Trading Boedker wouldn't be smart if they wanna win. I wouldn't do it unless they get a better player back who plays for less. I don't think that will be easy and if Wilson finds that guy he'll probably be extremely expensive.

Lol we'd be moving Boedker to fit in John Tavares. No one is going to miss Boedker if that happens.

 

[Hinterland]

Lol we'd be moving Boedker to fit in John Tavares. No one is going to miss Boedker if that happens.

I'd rather let Kane walk than to trade Boedker. Boedker provides better value and is the only Sharks forward (besides crappy Karlsson) signed until 2020. He's the one guy besides Meier and Hertl the Sharks should keep no matter what...at least for now. They can still trade him next season if they can't sign him to a new contract.
Tavares isn't gonna leave the Isles 99%. And if he does I don't know if the Sharks would be his preferred team. Sharks are a good option but just about every team is gonna want him.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If we can package Tierney with Martin to incentivize a team to take the latter's contract and can move Boedker for a pick without retaining salary then we'll have around $23mil to sign Tavares, Hertl, Thornton, Fehr and DeMelo. Doable if it's $12mil for Tavares, $5.5mil for Hertl, ~$3mil for Thornton and $1mil each for Fehr and DeMelo. Those cap hits for those players sound reasonable, the big ifs are being able to to rid ourselves of the entirety of Martin and Boedker's salaries.

Yeah, it'd either be Tierney or Labanc that goes with Martin to get him off the books. Boedker shouldn't be difficult to move coming off this season. A 2nd or 3rd round pick seems doable. Karlsson and his 2 mil should also go but he'll only return a 5th-7th round pick which is fine. Sorensen and Goodrow should be on the wings of the 4th line next season. If DW manages to swing those trades, that money savings should be enough for Tavares. I don't know if Fehr and DeMelo get 1 mil though. Fehr got a raw deal in Toronto and produces at a clip that could get a team to bite at 2 mil. DeMelo's production would probably put him at about 1.5 mil since I'm expecting only a one year deal for him if he signs here. Thornton you can make a guess at anywhere from 1 mil to 6 mil because of his 35+ status. If he took bonuses mostly then they can use what they have on the bonus cushion to go over the cap. I'd sell him hard on a one year, 1 mil salary with like three or four million in bonuses. But that's only if Tavares signs here. If they're going to miss out on him then you can move more of the bonuses into the salary area since it wouldn't be likely that the Sharks spent to cap.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'd rather let Kane walk than to trade Boedker. Boedker provides better value and is the only Sharks forward (besides crappy Karlsson) signed until 2020. He's the one guy besides Meier and Hertl the Sharks should keep no matter what...at least for now. They can still trade him next season if they can't sign him to a new contract.
Tavares isn't gonna leave the Isles 99%. And if he does I don't know if the Sharks would be his preferred team. Sharks are a good option but just about every team is gonna want him.

Yeah well Kane isn't walking so we need to move forward to the next thing. Kane's re-signing means a winger is going to be dealt. They need to move Karlsson regardless. Martin and Thornton's status are affected by Tavares' availability. Martin because if Tavares isn't available then they should buy him out instead of trading someone like Tierney or Labanc with him to lose the cap hit. Thornton's because they could go over the cap by giving him more performance bonuses for flexibility purposes. I sincerely doubt the organization or many fans are going to see Boedker as this untouchable that you view him as. He was good this year but he was good for a 2nd liner and his start plus last year takes him away from untouchable status. As for Tavares' availability, you're probably right that he's not available to the Sharks but you keep that door open so long as he keeps it open too. This team should make that pitch to him if he's willing to hear it. Prepare financially as if you will sign him and move forward if you don't.