Stephen Weiss

[abbbaron]

If his offers from Holland were notably lower than what he was receiving elsewhere, yeah.

Yeah, it's never happened before that a player was willing to take a comparatively worse offer...if we could just ignore Cleary for the moment

 

[Winger98]

Yeah, it's never happened before that a player was willing to take a comparatively worse offer...if we could just ignore Cleary for the moment

Cleary's imaginary offer from Philly?

And comparatively or notably? I didn't say comparatively. If it was a buck cheaper, yeah, Filppula probably calls back. But you're trying to play up Holland's offer being low with your "significant difference" quote. Which is it? Is there a significant or notable difference or was it comparable?

And if it was comparable, then Holland's offer was never low and Filppula over-valued himself on the open market. Which is the most likely scenario. Holland, rather than waiting around and ending up with neither Filppula or Weiss, moved on who he could sign. If Filppula wanted to stay, he should have had an agent who read the market better and told him to sign with the Wings' offer originally.

 

[abbbaron]

Cleary's imaginary offer from Philly?

And comparatively or notably? I didn't say comparatively. If it was a buck cheaper, yeah, Filppula probably calls back. But you're trying to play up Holland's offer being low with your "significant difference" quote. Which is it? Is there a significant or notable difference or was it comparable?

And if it was comparable, then Holland's offer was never low and Filppula over-valued himself on the open market. Which is the most likely scenario. Holland, rather than waiting around and ending up with neither Filppula or Weiss, moved on who he could sign. If Filppula wanted to stay, he should have had an agent who read the market better and told him to sign with the Wings' offer originally.

Well it's nice to see how imaginary things can take a life of their own, I guess...

Your semantic game is absurd, but I'll play along. Apparently "comparatively" and "notably" are mutually exclusive these days? I gave the example of Cleary, who in Neverneverland forwent an offer that was significantly more than what Holland offered him, and he reached that decision on an imaginary second thought. But we can ignore his example because that never happens.

Through all this BS you guys have pulled to defend Ken Holland's good name, my point remains unchanged: "it seems Fil was fairly interested in making it work in Detroit, but Holland wasn't quite as interested or patient."

 

[TheOtherOne]

And Sheahan was a clearly superior player to Weiss. Weiss was slow in transition, couldn't keep up with a backcheck, and was often entirely lost in the neutral zone where he either still didn't grasp our system or was just sloppy. Guy converted his offensive opportunities very well, but he was crap once he couldn't play within ten feet of the opposition's net.

Yes yes I know. "Despite all the statistical evidence available demonstrating otherwise, I feel cold today, therefore I'm confident that the globe is not warming."

 

[ArGarBarGar]

rbbbbaron, I don't understand why you are taking the discussion so personally and with such aggression towards other members.

Just make your points, please. We don't need to turn this into a battleground.

Also Holmgren himself discounted the report of a three year deal for $2.75 million.

 

[Winger98]

Well it's nice to see how imaginary things can take a life of their own, I guess...

Your semantic game is absurd, but I'll play along. Apparently "comparatively" and "notably" are mutually exclusive these days? I gave the example of Cleary, who in Neverneverland forwent an offer that was significantly more than what Holland offered him, and he reached that decision on an imaginary second thought. But we can ignore his example because that never happens.

Through all this BS you guys have pulled to defend Ken Holland's good name, my point remains unchanged: "it seems Fil was fairly interested in making it work in Detroit, but Holland wasn't quite as interested or patient."

Holmgren never confirmed the three year offer as accurate, instead saying Cleary was offered a try-out. So, yeah, I'm not putting a lot of stock in the three year offer if all Cleary had actually on the table was a try-out. A try-out from the same Philly that had recently re-signed their core players in Richards and Carter then promptly dealt them just before their new deals and NMCs clicked in. That, or take the guaranteed offer from Detroit? Yeah, that was all in Dan's heart to stay in motown.

And, yeah, notably and comparatively have different meanings so when you're going to just slip one in for the other, I'm going to push for clarity. If Holland's offer was notably different from what Filppula was getting on the open market, no, he wouldn't have bothered coming back because it would be clear that Holland wasn't going to go that high. It only makes sense for Filppula to come skulking back if the deals were comparable, and if the deals were comparable, then Holland was never far off.

 

[Winger98]

Yes yes I know. "Despite all the statistical evidence available demonstrating otherwise, I feel cold today, therefore I'm confident that the globe is not warming."

If you're comparing your argument to the argument for global warming, you are doing a gross dis-service to the argument for the latter.

Especially when I've agreed with the idea that Weiss wasn't just luck when in the offensive zone. He knows what to do around the net, and I remember him racking up a lot of points there. Nothing in your stats tells me what he was when he wasn't ten feet from the net, though. It tells me Babcock did a great job of getting him out there in situations that benefited Weiss, and that Weiss took advantage of them. Guy still couldn't skate worth a lick, and was still lousy defensively.

 

[TheOtherOne]

If you're comparing your argument to the argument for global warming, you are doing a gross dis-service to the argument for the latter.

Especially when I've agreed with the idea that Weiss wasn't just luck when in the offensive zone. He knows what to do around the net, and I remember him racking up a lot of points there. Nothing in your stats tells me what he was when he wasn't ten feet from the net, though. It tells me Babcock did a great job of getting him out there in situations that benefited Weiss, and that Weiss took advantage of them. Guy still couldn't skate worth a lick, and was still lousy defensively.

All I'm trying to do is point out how ridiculous the crowd looks when they endlessly repeat the "sheahan is better than weiss at everything and it's not even close" line that has just been getting oh so ****ing old to me.

 

[Winger98]

All I'm trying to do is point out how ridiculous the crowd looks when they endlessly repeat the "sheahan is better than weiss at everything and it's not even close" line that has just been getting oh so ****ing old to me.

Everything is pretty encompassing, though. There's bound to be something Weiss is better at, even if it's checkers. Or children's show trivia I beat the drum for Weiss to at least be tried at center for most of the season, and I was generally supportive of him and giving him a good long look. At the same time, though, I don't think comparing him to Sheahan does him any favors. Partly because Sheahan was played at center, while Weiss was primarily on the wing, but also because Sheahan was tasked with more than putting up points, as any center in the Wings system is. And by and large Sheahan held his own.

I think Weiss was largely used as a specialist this year, as was Andersson. Where Andersson was used defensively and on the PK, Weiss was used offensively and on the PP. For me, I think a more convincing argument would start here since neither player was really asked to play a 200 ft, all situations style game. Was Weiss worth more for the offensive spark he provided than Andersson was for the defensive play? I don't know. I'm not a big fan of Andersson, so I'd probably lean Weiss, but I can see the argument for Andersson coming, too.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I beat the drum for Weiss to at least be tried at center for most of the season, and I was generally supportive of him and giving him a good long look.

Then you're probably not REALLY the person I'm arguing with. I'm just sick of people ignoring stats completely and repeating over and over that "Weiss was supposed to be the second line center but Sheahan won that spot convincingly". Sheahan might have won it. I don't know or care. But even if he did, it was far from convincing. The only way to prove to me that Weiss couldn't have done a better job would be to actually put him there to find out, but that never happened and will never happen. I don't care anymore. I just hate that everyone thinks that repeating "Sheahan is better" over and over makes it true.

I agree that the Andy v Weiss argument is a reasonably appropriate one, but what I don't like about it is that it's offensive v defensive. Which means that if the coach wants defensive, then Andy wins, even if the situation is +5 defensive v +100 offensive. That's all. If all you're trying to do is compare overall strength then Weiss is a million times the player Andy is. But if you're dead set on a defensive specialist then Andy wins by a hair.

 

[abbbaron]

Holmgren never confirmed the three year offer as accurate, instead saying Cleary was offered a try-out. So, yeah, I'm not putting a lot of stock in the three year offer if all Cleary had actually on the table was a try-out.

Holmgren caught a lot of crap when the details of the Cleary 'signing' came out, so there was reason for him to not confirm what at that point was a verbal agreement between him and Cleary. If it was all just make-believe, then I for one can't explain why Holmgren would later publicly state “I have more respect for Dan now based on what happened today.” Would he have had more respect for Cleary because the guy just organized an elaborate ploy to bilk an extra 250K out of Holland?... “He was loyal to his team.” ...well, that sure is commitment to a hoax.

If anyone has access to the 24/7 episodes from 2013 (they've been largely pulled from youtube save for a few clips), Cleary made it a point in the interview to say that he had a better offer from Philly but nevertheless decided to return to Detroit. Again, maybe just following through with the ruse? He's good...

A try-out from the same Philly that had recently re-signed their core players in Richards and Carter then promptly dealt them just before their new deals and NMCs clicked in. That, or take the guaranteed offer from Detroit? Yeah, that was all in Dan's heart to stay in motown.

Sorry, I don't see what you're implying with this narrative. Cleary saw what happened to Carter and Richards 2 years prior and was afraid of being traded by Holmgren? (because surely there would've been plenty of trade partners lining up for that one)
I think the more appropriate event temporally would've been the buy-out of Bryzgalov. If, as you hinted, Cleary was at all worried about being double-crossed by Holmgren, then maybe he could've been just as well banking on the possibility of being bought-out, being paid for nothing with the option of resigning in Detroit-- the best of all worlds!
Again, it doesn't really pass the smell test.

And, yeah, notably and comparatively have different meanings so when you're going to just slip one in for the other, I'm going to push for clarity.

Indeed, notably and comparatively are two different words. But in that context, and in the context of everything that I had written up to that point where I used "comparatively", I thought it was pretty darn clear what I meant and otherwise absurd to try and make it seem as if I was changing my tune.

If Holland's offer was notably different from what Filppula was getting on the open market, no, he wouldn't have bothered coming back because it would be clear that Holland wasn't going to go that high. It only makes sense for Filppula to come skulking back if the deals were comparable, and if the deals were comparable, then Holland was never far off.

Please revisit Holland's comments, made at the time when, by Holland's own account, there was a "significant difference":

“He’s looking forward to July 5,” Holland said. “There’s a significant difference (in negotiations). That’s why it doesn’t appear we’re positioned to do a deal.

“It makes good sense for Fil and his agent to see what’s out there. I’ll stay in contact with Fil’s agent. If it’s time to leave, it’s time to leave.

“When players hit the open market they’re probably moving on. Players usually get offers that are better because so many teams are in play.

There was going to be an open line of communication no matter if the difference would become smaller or not. Again, what I wrote earlier: [The Babcock quote] suggests at the very least that [Fil] was still open to staying with the Wings; we just don't know whether he did so expecting Holland to sweeten the offer or what. Either way, it seems Fil was fairly interested in making it work in Detroit, but Holland wasn't quite as interested or patient.

MOD

 

[HockeyinHD]

Perhaps we need another Filppula/Hudler thread.

Feels like Groundhog Day right now.

Could I interest you in a 'Lilja/Lebda' thread, instead?

 

[Winger98]

Then you're probably not REALLY the person I'm arguing with. I'm just sick of people ignoring stats completely and repeating over and over that "Weiss was supposed to be the second line center but Sheahan won that spot convincingly". Sheahan might have won it. I don't know or care. But even if he did, it was far from convincing. The only way to prove to me that Weiss couldn't have done a better job would be to actually put him there to find out, but that never happened and will never happen. I don't care anymore. I just hate that everyone thinks that repeating "Sheahan is better" over and over makes it true.

I agree that the Andy v Weiss argument is a reasonably appropriate one, but what I don't like about it is that it's offensive v defensive. Which means that if the coach wants defensive, then Andy wins, even if the situation is +5 defensive v +100 offensive. That's all. If all you're trying to do is compare overall strength then Weiss is a million times the player Andy is. But if you're dead set on a defensive specialist then Andy wins by a hair.

I think that's just life under Babcock. He loves minimizing mistakes. Part of the reason I sort of look forward to him not being around next year. I don't know if Blashill or whoever would be more successful with the Wings, but I'd like to see a different approach.

Holmgren caught a lot of crap when the details of the Cleary 'signing' came out, so there was reason for him to not confirm what at that point was a verbal agreement between him and Cleary. If it was all just make-believe, then I for one can't explain why Holmgren would later publicly state “I have more respect for Dan now based on what happened today.†Would he have had more respect for Cleary because the guy just organized an elaborate ploy to bilk an extra 250K out of Holland?... “He was loyal to his team.†...well, that sure is commitment to a hoax.

If anyone has access to the 24/7 episodes from 2013 (they've been largely pulled from youtube save for a few clips), Cleary made it a point in the interview to say that he had a better offer from Philly but nevertheless decided to return to Detroit. Again, maybe just following through with the ruse? He's good...

Sorry, I don't see what you're implying with this narrative. Cleary saw what happened to Carter and Richards 2 years prior and was afraid of being traded by Holmgren? (because surely there would've been plenty of trade partners lining up for that one)
I think the more appropriate event temporally would've been the buy-out of Bryzgalov. If, as you hinted, Cleary was at all worried about being double-crossed by Holmgren, then maybe he could've been just as well banking on the possibility of being bought-out, being paid for nothing with the option of resigning in Detroit-- the best of all worlds!
Again, it doesn't really pass the smell test.

Indeed, notably and comparatively are two different words. But in that context, and in the context of everything that I had written up to that point where I used "comparatively", I thought it was pretty darn clear what I meant and otherwise absurd to try and make it seem as if I was changing my tune.

Please revisit Holland's comments, made at the time when, by Holland's own account, there was a "significant difference":

There was going to be an open line of communication no matter if the difference would become smaller or not. Again, what I wrote earlier: [The Babcock quote] suggests at the very least that [Fil] was still open to staying with the Wings; we just don't know whether he did so expecting Holland to sweeten the offer or what. Either way, it seems Fil was fairly interested in making it work in Detroit, but Holland wasn't quite as interested or patient.

MOD

Filppula was open to staying with the Wings when he went out and saw that the offers he was getting weren't what he thought they were. And you're assuming Holland wasn't in contact with Filppula's agent, and that what he was being told on that first day didn't play into him moving aggressively on Weiss.

Look, you clearly care about this way more than I do, so we'll just agree to disagree on this. I think Filppula spurned what turned out to be solid offers from Holland before free agency, then overplayed his hand expecting Holland to futz about on the golf course instead of making sure he and the Wings didn't get burned in the process.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Sheahan might have won it. I don't know or care. But even if he did, it was far from convincing.

Very often roles are determined by timing. It's much harder to win a role someone else already has than it is to win an open spot. When Weiss missed the first month or so of the season he lost out on the chance to get established early. When Sheahan got his opportunity and performed reasonably well, he got the spot.

I was very late to the Sheahan bandwagon. In fact, I'm not even sure I'm on it yet. When I look at the kid I'm not sure I can point to anything he does particularly well. On the other hand, and this matters to Babcock and always has, I can't point to anything the kid does badly, either.

So, while Weiss may (may) have a couple offensive secondary stats which support the notion he should play over Sheahan, with Babcock very often it's not just statistical production that moves you up his lineup sheet. I mean, Hudler put up big offensive numbers for Babcock (especially relative to TOI) for years and didn't get a larger role.

Babcock likes having a couple solid all around forwards in his top 9 who have some size, even if those guys end up not having a lot of offensive punch. Heck, he's had Abby in the top 9 for years now and up until this season it's been almost impossible to point to any substantial offensive production you couldn't directly credit his linemates for.

 

[Frk It]

I was very late to the Sheahan bandwagon. In fact, I'm not even sure I'm on it yet. When I look at the kid I'm not sure I can point to anything he does particularly well. On the other hand, and this matters to Babcock and always has, I can't point to anything the kid does badly, either.

Nothing at all jumps out to you? In my opinion, he has a really good shot (though he doesn't use it nearly enough). I also think he is a really good passer, some of the touch he displays on his saucer passes display quite a bit of skill.

I think he has the tools to be a really good pivot, I just don't know if it will all come together for him. At worst though, I think he will be a really good #3.

 

[abbbaron]

Filppula was open to staying with the Wings when he went out and saw that the offers he was getting weren't what he thought they were.

Really? That's interesting-- I've never heard that version. Could you direct me to your source(s) for that?

And you're assuming Holland wasn't in contact with Filppula's agent, and that what he was being told on that first day didn't play into him moving aggressively on Weiss.

Yeah, sorry, I can't make sense of whatever you're trying to convey with that firstly, and secondly for the life of me I don't know how you came up with those conditions as necessary assumptions to support what I've been arguing. Maybe someone else can explain? Otherwise do yourself a favor and go back a few pages to see what I've written-- I think I've kept it pretty lean and clear.

Look, you clearly care about this way more than I do, so we'll just agree to disagree on this. I think Filppula spurned what turned out to be solid offers from Holland before free agency, then overplayed his hand expecting Holland to futz about on the golf course instead of making sure he and the Wings didn't get burned in the process.

Do you have any information to support that thinking? Again, like those solid offers you talk about (or related disappointing offers from the open market)? Seeing as it that those are at the center of your narrative and all. At this point it's safe to say that unless you've got some inside information, then this amounts to little more than faith in Holland because thus far you've only given me half-baked reasoning that usually depends on something that doesn't jive with what Holland/others said or is otherwise common sense, and in trying to defend that or come up with a related alternative it has just gotten more and more convoluted. I've been painfully clear in my reasoning and sources. MOD

 

[Mijatovic]

Welcome back to actual playing time, Stephen Weiss. COME ON DOWN!!!

 

[Ricelund]

We've already heard this rumor, but:

 

[Inspiration]

we've already heard this rumor, but:

Actually, Friedman's clarification of his comments paints a different narrative than what we've been told:

 

[Heaton]

Just curious, but for those who want Weiss to get another chance, who's expense do you want it of?

We have:

Datsyuk
Z
Abdelkader
Tatar
Sheahan
Nyquist
Helm
Jurco
Pulkkinen (waiver exempt?)

That's a top 9. Who do you want Weiss playing over?

To me, it's Jurco if I had to choose... But do we really want Jurco getting 4th line minutes for another season, just for Weiss?

 

[Frk It]

Just curious, but for those who want Weiss to get another chance, who's expense do you want it of?

We have:

Datsyuk
Z
Abdelkader
Tatar
Sheahan
Nyquist
Helm
Jurco
Pulkkinen (waiver exempt?)

That's a top 9. Who do you want Weiss playing over?

To me, it's Jurco if I had to choose... But do we really want Jurco getting 4th line minutes for another season, just for Weiss?

Absolutely no one. Which is why I would like him traded or bought out.

And as I mentioned in the Blashill thread, watch for Jurco to have a nice season next year under Blashill. He knows how to get him to succeed.

 

[Bench]

That's a top 9. Who do you want Weiss playing over?

Yeah... Weiss doesn't have a spot anymore. We tried to get a 2nd line center, failed, and it's time to cut losses.

And since I think we all recognize this team isn't a stacked contender, way more emphasis needs to be put on playing and developing young talent now. Weiss fits nowhere into the equation from where I sit.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yeah... Weiss doesn't have a spot anymore. We tried to get a 2nd line center, failed, and it's time to cut losses.

And since I think we all recognize this team isn't a stacked contender, way more emphasis needs to be put on playing and developing young talent now. Weiss fits nowhere into the equation from where I sit.

This is probably true, unfortunately.

 

[Heaton]

This is probably true, unfortunately.

I think it's a major positive, actually. Our team has too many young and/or better players for an aging, injury prone player.

Hell, I didn't even factor in the off chance that Franzen might be back too.

Weiss was a great idea at the time, but we luckily have tons of potential upgrades to make him unnecessary.

 

[Inspiration]

Just curious, but for those who want Weiss to get another chance, who's expense do you want it of?

We have:

Datsyuk
Z
Abdelkader
Tatar
Sheahan
Nyquist
Helm
Jurco
Pulkkinen (waiver exempt?)

That's a top 9. Who do you want Weiss playing over?

To me, it's Jurco if I had to choose... But do we really want Jurco getting 4th line minutes for another season, just for Weiss?

How often are a team's top 9 forwards all healthy at the same time? I'd imagine that your 10th best forward will play in your top 9 the vast majority of games over the course of a season.