Stephen Weiss

[8snake]

If he has another season that he only gets 35 or 40 points, Then you can be skeptical

He shouldnt even be in the NHL right now with how Detroit does things

He'll be 24 this season, that means he's almost in his mid-20's. There are exceptions, but for the most part a forward is what he's going to be by his mid-20's. We should get a good idea of where he tops out at this coming season. I just don't see it...not as a top 6 center.

 

[Debrincat93]

There's nothing wrong with Sheahan. We didn't draft him to become an offensive dynamo. we drafted him to provide size, good faceoff and hard worker... if he becomes a consistent 50 pt guy then that's all we can ask for..

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

There's nothing wrong with Sheahan. We didn't draft him to become an offensive dynamo. we drafted him to provide size, good faceoff and hard worker... if he becomes a consistent 50 pt guy then that's all we can ask for..

Sheahan as a 50 point guy would be amazing for us.

 

[TheOtherOne]

But let's ignore that Weiss played against much worse competition and his production is based on a goofy stat like points per minute playing very very few minutes.

I don't understand why you're so enamoured with Weiss.

I don't see what's so goofy about points per minute. It's pretty much the best way we have available to compare productivity of two players who are used differently. Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story, but no single stat does.

On the other hand, there is no stat that shows any evidence that sheahan is better than weiss at anything. Unless you're stuck on his +/- being better by a whopping +1, I guess.

 

[abbbaron]

I don't see what's so goofy about points per minute. It's pretty much the best way we have available to compare productivity of two players who are used differently. Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story, but no single stat does.

On the other hand, there is no stat that shows any evidence that sheahan is better than weiss at anything. Unless you're stuck on his +/- being better by a whopping +1, I guess.

Well, if you ignore that just about every possession stat (behindthenet.ca) speaks in favor of Sheahan, then yeah. Weiss' on ice sh% was a little better than Sheahan's, but that shouldn't be very surprising given that Weiss spent time with Datsyuk and Helm (1st and 3rd on the team, respectively). Sheahan also consumes about a fifth of the cap-space that Weiss does...if that means anything to you.

 

[Mijatovic]

Well, Weiss spent time with Datsyuk and Helm (1st and 3rd on the team, respectively).[\QUOTE]
No he didn't. Don't even argue that Weiss had better linemates Than Sheahan. It's an outright lie

 

[abbbaron]

Well, Weiss spent time with Datsyuk and Helm (1st and 3rd on the team, respectively).[\QUOTE]
No he didn't. Don't even argue that Weiss had better linemates Than Sheahan. It's an outright lie

You're right-- I'm lying. He didn't actually play on a line with Datsyuk and Helm, instead what happened on those points was that Weiss or Datsyuk/Helm would dump the puck in and go for a change while the other came on to the ice, retrieved the puck and immediately scored.

 

[wingsfan33]

Weiss is disaster and as good as gone

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Weiss is disaster and as good as gone

I wouldn't say he's gone, doubt there is any takers

 

[Invictus12]

Probably the most interesting situation on our roster is Weiss. He's definitely capable of providing some offense, he's shown that, this past season. If Weiss isn't traded, a lot will depend on the new coach and how he sees Weiss fitting in. Might even be in the top 6 for all we know. Under Babs, it was pretty clear Weiss had no place here. If the situation is the same under a new coach, rather have the guy moved for whatever is possible.

 

[sarcastro]

If they're not going to miss the cap space this summer, I think they keep Weiss and buy him out next summer when the penalty will be lower with an extra year burned off. No sense in buying him out now, taking the extra hit for years to come, and then not using the space you made by dumping him. He can fill the Cleary role of 14th forward if necessary. Don't need a prospect sitting for six weeks at a time waiting for multiple injuries on the same road trip or for two guys to run into each other in warm-up.

In terms of trades, the only way to trade him is to keep almost all his salary in return for a bag of pucks. Or trade him for an equal or greater cap disaster. He has less than zero trade value. Way, way less.

 

[Bench]

If they're not going to miss the cap space this summer [...]

They won't. Have you looked at the free agency class? It's awful. There's like a handful of 2nd and 3rd line guys and a few 2nd pairing defenders. And ironically, there will be a dozen teams lining up to give them all pretty big contracts. Mike Green is easily the best free agent... easily. He's going to cash in, just as Niskanen did when you had 5 teams trying to bid for the one offensive defender worth a damn.

Then there's guys like Carl Soderberg and Paul Martin. The fact that Michael Frolik is getting a lot of free agent buzz is pretty much all you need to know.

The Wings will go hard on Green and after that you're looking at a bunch of marginal upgrades that are going to cost a fortune, which isn't in Holland's DNA to get involved.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Well, if you ignore that just about every possession stat (behindthenet.ca) speaks in favor of Sheahan, then yeah. Weiss' on ice sh% was a little better than Sheahan's, but that shouldn't be very surprising given that Weiss spent time with Datsyuk and Helm (1st and 3rd on the team, respectively). Sheahan also consumes about a fifth of the cap-space that Weiss does...if that means anything to you.

Alright well first things first: I'm never going to argue that Weiss is better than Sheahan. My argument is more nuanced. I don't think you can make all that informed of an argument for either guy when Weiss has been shackled to a random assortment of AHL linemates for the limited playtime he did get all season. But if the advanced stats you cite say Sheahan performed better in terms of possession, then fine, I'm just glad someone actually decided to use some evidence for once instead of blindly repeating "eye test! eye test! weiss sucks! hodor!"

Other things I find interesting from your source: It's kind of funny how everyone likes to shoot down Weiss by claiming he only gets easy shifts with all offensive zone starts, but here we have proof that Sheahan had an even higher percentage of offensive zone starts.

The other thing (that should have been obvious to everyone by now) is that Weiss kills Andersson in every category.

I also doubt he spent much time with Datsyuk and Helm. Maybe the one game you showed. Probably not much more than that.

Anyway we can move on now.

 

[Probie]

They won't. Have you looked at the free agency class? It's awful. There's like a handful of 2nd and 3rd line guys and a few 2nd pairing defenders. And ironically, there will be a dozen teams lining up to give them all pretty big contracts. Mike Green is easily the best free agent... easily. He's going to cash in, just as Niskanen did when you had 5 teams trying to bid for the one offensive defender worth a damn.

Then there's guys like Carl Soderberg and Paul Martin. The fact that Michael Frolik is getting a lot of free agent buzz is pretty much all you need to know.

The Wings will go hard on Green and after that you're looking at a bunch of marginal upgrades that are going to cost a fortune, which isn't in Holland's DNA to get involved.

Bench, whats your opinion of Frolik? What would you think is a good salary for him on this team?

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Bench, whats your opinion of Frolik? What would you think is a good salary for him on this team?

4/4.5 mil, I dont know what line he played on, If he was playing first line time hes probably worth 2 mil, If he was playing 2nd line or less then Hes worth at least 4.

Some team will probably offer 5 or 5.5

 

[abbbaron]

Alright well first things first: I'm never going to argue that Weiss is better than Sheahan. My argument is more nuanced. I don't think you can make all that informed of an argument for either guy when Weiss has been shackled to a random assortment of AHL linemates for the limited playtime he did get all season. But if the advanced stats you cite say Sheahan performed better in terms of possession, then fine, I'm just glad someone actually decided to use some evidence for once instead of blindly repeating "eye test! eye test! weiss sucks! hodor!"

Other things I find interesting from your source: It's kind of funny how everyone likes to shoot down Weiss by claiming he only gets easy shifts with all offensive zone starts, but here we have proof that Sheahan had an even higher percentage of offensive zone starts.

The other thing (that should have been obvious to everyone by now) is that Weiss kills Andersson in every category.

I also doubt he spent much time with Datsyuk and Helm. Maybe the one game you showed. Probably not much more than that.

Anyway we can move on now.

Weiss spent roughly 5 games on the line with Datsyuk and Helm back in November/early December. Aside from my memory of that time, you can look at the scoring summaries from those games to find evidence. 5 games may not sound like much, but remember that Weiss only played 50-some games, and moreover those games were some of Weiss' most productive of the season, so they were enough of an outlier to affect Weiss' averages (for the better).

Depending on which analytics site you're looking at, the numbers can vary because, firstly, they typically organize their data a little bit differently from each other, but also as far as I know there's no centralized source for the data (the league certainly isn't providing it, otherwise I'm not sure if each site collects their own data separately). So if one site says Sheahan or Weiss has a higher percentage of offensive starts or whatever and another site reads differently, first make sure you're looking at the same measure (some sites make adjustments) and in the same context (5v5, regular season, etc). Even when all that seems to match up and the numbers still differ, then it could be a matter of the data collection-- try to find a third site

 

[TheOtherOne]

Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention is that no, I don't care which of the two makes more money. And I don't see why other people do.

The one time discussing contracts makes sense is when you're talking about trading, renewing, letting go, etc. If we have 5 mil of cap space and we're discussing whether we should hire Weiss from free agency then sure, it's very relevant how much he wants to get paid.

When you're talking about two guys that are currently under contract, we (the fans) should only care about who is better. Who is our 12th forward, the minimum wage rookie or the 7 million dollar superstar? Whichever is currently playing better. Who is our starting goalie- Mrazek or Howard? Whichever is currently playing better. I see no reason to care about how much money they make. I just want to ice the best team possible with whatever is available to me.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Sheahan as a 50 point guy would be amazing for us.

Yeah.. But he feels like he could be an elite guy that scores 70+ points. Hes got the tools.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Yeah.. But he feels like he could be an elite guy that scores 70+ points. Hes got the tools.

Man, people love to do that with prospects. A young player shows a glimmer of something and then we start musing about how great it would be if he did that, except 4 times as well.

Then, inevitably, the prospect fails to meet those standards and the timer starts ticking on when they need to be shoved aside for the NEXT young player to come along.

If Sheahan develops into a guy who gets even ~40 points a year playing a complete game we should be doing freaking cartwheels considering what most teams normally get picking in the 20's in the first round. Cart. Wheels.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Man, people love to do that with prospects. A young player shows a glimmer of something and then we start musing about how great it would be if he did that, except 4 times as well.

Then, inevitably, the prospect fails to meet those standards and the timer starts ticking on when they need to be shoved aside for the NEXT young player to come along.

If Sheahan develops into a guy who gets even ~40 points a year playing a complete game we should be doing freaking cartwheels considering what most teams normally get picking in the 20's in the first round. Cart. Wheels.

Hey, Id love for Sheahan to be a consistent 40+ point guy, Im not one of those overhyped prospect guys( trade datsyuk and bring up Mantha!) Unless you show me Ouellet, Then when I see something good ill point that out everytime.

I just have a gut feeling that Sheahan can be a 1st line center.

 

[abbbaron]

Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention is that no, I don't care which of the two makes more money. And I don't see why other people do.

The one time discussing contracts makes sense is when you're talking about trading, renewing, letting go, etc. If we have 5 mil of cap space and we're discussing whether we should hire Weiss from free agency then sure, it's very relevant how much he wants to get paid.

When you're talking about two guys that are currently under contract, we (the fans) should only care about who is better. Who is our 12th forward, the minimum wage rookie or the 7 million dollar superstar? Whichever is currently playing better. Who is our starting goalie- Mrazek or Howard? Whichever is currently playing better. I see no reason to care about how much money they make. I just want to ice the best team possible with whatever is available to me.

That's something where I disagree you. As fans, yeah we immediately only care about who is better (we want to see the best possible configuration on the ice). But for coaches who are a little less willing to thumb their noses at their GMs as Babcock was this past season, a player's contractual background inevitably affects how a coach treats/uses that player-- it affects the one-ice product. Another reason for why we can't simply be blissfully ignorant of what's going on financially is because there are longer term implications to (over)paying guys to warm the bench. These guys aren't being paid in isolation of one another, so for one thing there are peer effects.

Also, if you're the owner of the club and you're watching your money being put to poor use on a guy like Weiss or possibly Howard now, you're either going to wonder about your GM (probably not the case for Ilitch, unfortunately) or you're going to understand it as added risk, in which case you might try raise more revenue for yourself. The money comes from somewhere...

It's myopic to ignore the financial side of the game

 

[DanZ]

Man, people love to do that with prospects. A young player shows a glimmer of something and then we start musing about how great it would be if he did that, except 4 times as well.

Then, inevitably, the prospect fails to meet those standards and the timer starts ticking on when they need to be shoved aside for the NEXT young player to come along.

If Sheahan develops into a guy who gets even ~40 points a year playing a complete game we should be doing freaking cartwheels considering what most teams normally get picking in the 20's in the first round. Cart. Wheels.

Jesus, all he said was he has the tools. Which he does. Are you disagreeing with that?

Sheahan doesn't really have any specific weaknesses in his game that you can point to and say that that is something he should work on. His weaknesses are more broad and abstract. He needs consistency and to be able to put it all together. Other than that, he's pretty good at everything... Defense, passing, shot, strength, skating, speed, puck protection, board play, etc.

It's not like some players where you can pick out a specific weakness. For example, Nyquist is sometimes weak on the puck and isn't the best on the boards. Tatar is prone to bad giveaways and is under-sized. Pulkkinen is an average skater and is bad along the boards. Sheahan doesn't really have anything specific you can point to and say "This will probably hold him back." He has everything.

 

[abbbaron]

Jesus, all he said was he has the tools. Which he does. Are you disagreeing with that?

Sheahan doesn't really have any specific weaknesses in his game that you can point to and say that that is something he should work on. His weaknesses are more broad and abstract. He needs consistency and to be able to put it all together. Other than that, he's pretty good at everything... Defense, passing, shot, strength, skating, speed, puck protection, board play, etc.

It's not like some players where you can pick out a specific weakness. For example, Nyquist is sometimes weak on the puck and isn't the best on the boards. Tatar is prone to bad giveaways and is under-sized. Pulkkinen is an average skater and is bad along the boards. Sheahan doesn't really have anything specific you can point to and say "This will probably hold him back." He has everything.

"The Total Package" Riley Sheahan

 

[SpookyTsuki]

"The Total Package" Riley Sheahan

Gotta love the Purple Teletubby

 

[davecrockburn]

Sheahan is probably the second best passer on the team after Datsyuk. He consistently wins battles along the boards and has a great shot when he uses it. I think he becomes at LEAST a 50 point player at his peak.