Stephen Weiss

[abbbaron]

yeah, there was puck luck involved, but he also knows where to go and what to do once he got there. You're right, he couldn't generate much of anything on his own, but he was still productive when he was with someone who could do the leg work. Capitalizing on your opportunities shouldn't be held against him. The problem with Weiss is that he literally could't skate and still didn't seem to know what to do defensively. The guy looked lost whenever he was in his own zone, and I have no idea how he could still seem to not have a good grasp of our system.

Anyone with that puck luck could have been at least as productive as Weiss especially when on a line with possession drivers like Datsyuk and Helm-- if it was Weiss who was providing any kind of secret sauce then Babcock would've kept that line together. Weiss' knowledge of where to go had probably less to do with his own instincts/style of play than instructions that the coaching staff gave him ("let Helm's speed and Datysuk's shiftiness create time and space for you to just crash to the net"). That line was obviously a matching of the strongest with the weakest, typical of Babcock's preference for smoothing out his scoring lines; it had a pop of productivity then fizzled and was broken up, likely because Babcock saw its productivity for what it was, chiefly puck luck, and didn't want to have to overwork Datsyuk (on both sides of the puck)
I'm not holding it against Weiss for capitalizing on his chances (as a Wings fan I'm glad he did), I was making the case that we have to look behind the numbers, specifically his point scoring, and calling attention to the fact that they're unlikely to fool anyone around the league who actually observes Weiss' play.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Weiss being a dumpster fire in Detroit has been one of the more surprising outcomes I've seen with regards to the Wings in quite a while. If I had to make a list of contracts I thought would end up biting the team in the butt, Weiss' wouldn't have made my top 10.

I didn't think he'd do more than the ~20 goal, ~60 point stuff he put up in Florida, but holy jeez I figured he'd be more productive than 11 goals over two seasons.

 

[8snake]

Weiss being a dumpster fire in Detroit has been one of the more surprising outcomes I've seen with regards to the Wings in quite a while. If I had to make a list of contracts I thought would end up biting the team in the butt, Weiss' wouldn't have made my top 10.

I didn't think he'd do more than the ~20 goal, ~60 point stuff he put up in Florida, but holy jeez I figured he'd be more productive than 11 goals over two seasons.

Haven't seen a post of yours on this board in years...good to see you back.

 

[golffuul]

Weiss being a dumpster fire in Detroit has been one of the more surprising outcomes I've seen with regards to the Wings in quite a while. If I had to make a list of contracts I thought would end up biting the team in the butt, Weiss' wouldn't have made my top 10.

I didn't think he'd do more than the ~20 goal, ~60 point stuff he put up in Florida, but holy jeez I figured he'd be more productive than 11 goals over two seasons.

Totally agree with this. I thought Weiss could be the 2nd line Center that we needed to allow Sheahan to progress at the 3rd center spot and help stabilize some line combinations. At worst, I thought he would play wing to Helm's Center or vice-versa.

I don't know if it was just inopportune injuries or just a bad fit. But his services are definitely better off somewhere else.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

I was a huge supporter of Weiss, and I still think some of his issues were exacerbated by Babcock, but at the end of the day he's not the #2 Center we needed him to be. So, no matter what, he's overpaid. if he can be included in a deal (for Phaneuf for example) you need to do it.

 

[abbbaron]

A couple years ago when I heard that Filppula was looking for $5mil/5yrs and that Holland was interested in Weiss, I was in favor of letting Fil walk under the impression that Weiss was going to be the cheaper, cap-conservative alternative especially after Holland passed on Lecavalier (who was looking for $4-5mil over 4-5years). I was thinking maybe Weiss could be had for a Sammy-style contract of a couple years, $3-4mil per (and not more given that he had just had major surgery and a terrible season), so that there'd be space for Holland to address the blueline.

When the details about his contract came out, that he basically gave Weiss the same that Fil was looking for, and didn't do jack to bolster the blueline (Alfie could at least play the point on the PP, fine, but that was a clearly a temporary and insufficient fix for a lingering problem), that was the proverbial last straw for me in terms of giving Holland the benefit of the doubt.

I've been uneasy with Weiss' contract from the beginning, too much for too long that I would've rather seen go to the known commodity, Fil, than the unknown. In a stroke of irony, Holland likely awarded Weiss that oversized contract to keep him out of the hands of Toronto...

 

[RayMoonDoh]

A couple years ago when I heard that Filppula was looking for $5mil/5yrs and that Holland was interested in Weiss, I was in favor of letting Fil walk under the impression that Weiss was going to be the cheaper, cap-conservative alternative especially after Holland passed on Lecavalier (who was looking for $4-5mil over 4-5years). I was thinking maybe Weiss could be had for a Sammy-style contract of a couple years, $3-4mil per (and not more given that he had just had major surgery and a terrible season), so that there'd be space for Holland to address the blueline.

When the details about his contract came out, that he basically gave Weiss the same that Fil was looking for, and didn't do jack to bolster the blueline (Alfie could at least play the point on the PP, fine, but that was a clearly a temporary and insufficient fix for a lingering problem), that was the proverbial last straw for me in terms of giving Holland the benefit of the doubt.

I've been uneasy with Weiss' contract from the beginning, too much for too long that I would've rather seen go to the known commodity, Fil, than the unknown. In a stroke of irony, Holland likely awarded Weiss that oversized contract to keep him out of the hands of Toronto...

I don't think you noted that Fil was offered a competitive deal and decided to walk so Weiss was brought in as a replacement.

Fil wasn't going to be that scoring line center here.

That said, Weiss has been a huge bust. He's the 3rd highest cap hit among skaters for Det and is a legit buyout candidate. Oof.

The pro scouting department facepalms again

 

[odin1981]

I could tolerate him for 1 more year. Means the buyout won't hurt as much. And there isn't much to spend on this off season. I guess if we could get Soderberg we would buy him out then but really I doubt we pick a forward up this year.

He still sucks though don't get me wrong. But with 1 more year down it is less of a penalty to buying him out. So meh pretty much altogether.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Weiss being a dumpster fire in Detroit has been one of the more surprising outcomes I've seen with regards to the Wings in quite a while. If I had to make a list of contracts I thought would end up biting the team in the butt, Weiss' wouldn't have made my top 10.

I didn't think he'd do more than the ~20 goal, ~60 point stuff he put up in Florida, but holy jeez I figured he'd be more productive than 11 goals over two seasons.

Well aren't you a blast from the past.

Welcome back.

 

[abbbaron]

I don't think you noted that Fil was offered a competitive deal and decided to walk so Weiss was brought in as a replacement.

Do you have any sources about Fil turning down a Wings offer for 5yrs @ $5mil per? I recall the Fil's demands being circulated in the press for the better part of the season ("Filppula is looking for a deal that would pay him $5 million per season") and that Holland wasn't keen on going that far ("Detroit is reportedly not willing to commit that kind of term or money"), which explains why Holland was rumored to be open to trading his negotiating rights (ibid) and was known to be taking interest in Weiss. Holland ultimately didn't trade his rights, but going into the first day of free agency it was taken as granted that Filppula was as good as gone; so if you've got any information about Holland being outbid for Fil, that somehow Holland was willing to largely meet Fil's demands or otherwise preferred keeping Fil over Weiss all things equal, that'd be news to me and probably a lot of other people as well.

 

[HockeyinHD]

When the details about his contract came out, that he basically gave Weiss the same that Fil was looking for

At the time, my perception was that pretty much everyone saw that move as an upgrade. I saw it as an upgrade, too. Fil's first year in Tampa made us all seem silly for a second, but he was downright poor this year and had maybe his worst pro year since 2008.

Still better than what Weiss did, yes, but I suppose my point is that had Detroit signed Fil up to the same 5 mil per deal Tampa did people would be ripping Holland for overpaying him, instead of overpaying Weiss.

Both contracts look like they are bungles.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Do you have any sources about Fil turning down a Wings offer for 5yrs @ $5mil per? I recall the Fil's demands being circulated in the press for the better part of the season ("Filppula is looking for a deal that would pay him $5 million per season") and that Holland wasn't keen on going that far ("Detroit is reportedly not willing to commit that kind of term or money"), which explains why Holland was rumored to be open to trading his negotiating rights (ibid) and was known to be taking interest in Weiss. Holland ultimately didn't trade his rights, but going into the first day of free agency it was taken as granted that Filppula was as good as gone; so if you've got any information about Holland being outbid for Fil, that somehow Holland was willing to largely meet Fil's demands or otherwise preferred keeping Fil over Weiss all things equal, that'd be news to me and probably a lot of other people as well.

I remember someone posting an article about it way back, because I was under the impression Holland moved from Filppula on his own accord, instead of Filppula turning down a long-term offer.

Found it, thanks to Winger.

Yzerman will appear on Fox Sports Detroit during the second intermission, and while we're droppin' bombs, Mike Babcock had spoken to Ken Kal in a little chit-chat prior to Kal losing his voice this morning, and Babcock stated that Ken Holland had offered Valtteri Filppula a seven-year contract prior to the start of free agency, but Filppula chose to test the market anyway, and when Filppula circled back around, "the money was all gone." [edit: and Mickey Redmond said that Holland had told him that the Wings had 2 offers for Filppula, one pre-free agency and one during free agency, but 4 or 5 teams were after Filppula and he was gone]

 

[abbbaron]

Found it, thanks to Winger.

Ok, thanks for that bit. Unfortunately it doesn't indicate anything about the money that was part of that last offer, but I'd have to assume it was under that magical number because he chose to leave it at the table. Otherwise the part about Fil circling back is plausible as his deal with Tampa was announced a little bit later than Weiss' (~30mins)

I suppose my point is that had Detroit signed Fil up to the same 5 mil per deal Tampa did people would be ripping Holland for overpaying him, instead of overpaying Weiss.

I can largely agree with you on that, as unfortunately the rip-Holland bandwagon is a bit too tempting for most Wings fans these days (at least here at HF), but personally I would've been more comfortable with Holland rewarding the guy who came up through the organization and was well known to us. Sure Fil wasn't likely to be a consistent 60-point scorer, but Wings fans shouldn't necessarily have expected that given the defense-first system. The fact that Wings fans have viewed Franzen and his sub $4mil cap hit as burdensome for the past few seasons is beyond me (going forward is a different story, as pretty much everyone can agree that the term on Franzen's contract is excessive, and not to mention that now there are legitimate concerns about his ability to stay healthy). For a fan-base that has been spoiled for the last 3 decades, I guess there's a little bit of a sense of entitlement that has to be contended with, hence all the complaining.

But even if Fil had stayed for 5mil @ 5 years, I think it'd be much easier to defend that contract given that Weiss would probably have become part of the tire-fire over in Toronto, that Ribeiro had to be bought out, that Derek Roy hasn't amounted to much; maybe Cullen was the one that got away from us?

 

[T Low]

What?

Which part needs clarication?

 

[TheOtherOne]

Weiss being a dumpster fire in Detroit has been one of the more surprising outcomes I've seen with regards to the Wings in quite a while. If I had to make a list of contracts I thought would end up biting the team in the butt, Weiss' wouldn't have made my top 10.

I didn't think he'd do more than the ~20 goal, ~60 point stuff he put up in Florida, but holy jeez I figured he'd be more productive than 11 goals over two seasons.

Have you looked at his productivity per minute? Yes of course his totals are terrible but when you take into account how much ice time he was given, is ridiculous to expect any better. See my avatar for a quick look.

There are a lot of things you can say about Weiss and a lot of them might be true. I'm not going to argue if you call him lazy or poor defensively. But his point productivity is undeniably not a problem. He is one of the three or four best on the team for that.

I just HAVE to reiterate one last time... his productivity accounted for by my avatar came despite the fact that most of the ice time he did get, he was dragging around joakim andersson, who, if his name doesn't ring any bells, is the guy on the far right with the barely visible orange bar.

 

[Roy S]

Sheahan was Weiss's most common forward linemate by a pretty wide margin. Pulk and Helm were 2nd and 3rd. Anderrsson was 5th. I think the tales of his terrible linemates is a bit overblown.

He also faced some of the easiest competition on the team and got a lot of o zone faceoffs and was helped by a lucky shooting percentage. Even with all of that, he had terrible possession metrics and was a - in the +- department. Scoring points is nice but if you give up more goals than you produce than it doesn't matter as much. It's also why Jurco played over him down the stretch. He could get defensive zone faceoffs and have good possession metrics and a "+" +-, so even if he wasn't scoring a lot of points then he was still a more effective overall player.

I think they should just buy him out. At best, in a trade, they would still retain $2 to $3 million worth of his salary. I don't see much of an advantage.

 

[Henkka]

They will never buy him out. It causes a 6-year problem with the cap.

Maximum 50% salary retention is a possibility, keep 2.45 Mil of his caphit and replace him with prospect for last 3 years. Then you can think it: 2.45M + 850k ELC = prospect costing 3.3M > playing better than 4.9M Weiss. It's an overall "win" move with the cap.

Or trade him for another bad caphit like Phaneuf, to have less bad caphit.

 

[abbbaron]

Sheahan was Weiss's most common forward linemate by a pretty wide margin. Pulk and Helm were 2nd and 3rd. Anderrsson was 5th. I think the tales of his terrible linemates is a bit overblown.

He also faced some of the easiest competition on the team and got a lot of o zone faceoffs and was helped by a lucky shooting percentage. Even with all of that, he had terrible possession metrics and was a - in the +- department. Scoring points is nice but if you give up more goals than you produce than it doesn't matter that much.

I think they should just buy him out. At best, in a trade, they would still retain $2 to $3 million worth of his salary. I don't see much of an advantage.

Naw, let's just focus on those point scoring averages and hope that GMs around the league do the same, ignoring all that fancy schmancy stuff you just recited

I can't imagine Holland agreeing to eat much of Weiss' contract given that there's still 3 years left on it (that's way too much of an admission of guilt). Unfortunately the most likely trade scenario Weiss involves Phaneuf coming back our way. I'd sooner have Holland kick the tires on Semin, Bolland, and about a dozen other guys on similarly bad contracts that have shorter terms and who are a lot less likely to be able to drag down a team than Phaneuf

 

[HockeyinHD]

But even if Fil had stayed for 5mil @ 5 years, I think it'd be much easier to defend that contract

I don't. "There goes Holland, just overpaying the guys already on the roster instead of getting a UFA upgrade, or giving the spot to a prospect!"

Then, after Fil plays in an identical role to what he always had in Detroit: "There goes Babcock. Clearly he and Holland aren't on the same page. Holland gave Fil 5 mil to be a top line forward not trapped on the third line with bleep and bleep as linemates!"

This isn't to imply that there's no way Holland could have done a better job here, I just think he was going to get blasted regardless of which of the two most likely doors he took.

Ah well. Maybe the book hasn't been fully written on Weiss's tenure in Detroit and he'll have a second act that doesn't make me sad. Maybe it's just an injury issue. One can hope, I guess.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Probably wishful thinking, but does anyone think there is a potential deal for Weiss with Florida? He's had his best success there, and maybe if we threw in something else for a conditional sixth or something, just to dump the contract?

Or, even more outlandish, we send Weiss to Florida for Dave Bolland and something else?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Maybe the book hasn't been fully written on Weiss's tenure in Detroit and he'll have a second act that doesn't make me sad. Maybe it's just an injury issue. One can hope, I guess.

I think the book is fully written. If Babs is back, Weiss's goose is cooked, I cannot see him being anything other than Cleary 2.0. If Blash is the coach, he's going with what he knows, and he doesn't know Weiss.

Good to have you back, HD

 

[HIFE]

They will never buy him out. It causes a 6-year problem with the cap.

Maximum 50% salary retention is a possibility, keep 2.45 Mil of his caphit and replace him with prospect for last 3 years. Then you can think it: 2.45M + 850k ELC = prospect costing 3.3M > playing better than 4.9M Weiss. It's an overall "win" move with the cap.

Or trade him for another bad caphit like Phaneuf, to have less bad caphit.

What a ****ing mess. Weiss was a gigantic mistake. WingedWheel1987 said it best:

Bought out or traded, Weiss cannot still be on the roster next season.

 

[abbbaron]

Originally Posted by rbbbaron:
But even if Fil had stayed for 5mil @ 5 years, I think it'd be much easier to defend that contract

I don't. "There goes Holland, just overpaying the guys already on the roster instead of getting a UFA upgrade, or giving the spot to a prospect!"

Erm, so, at the moment you think it's easier to defend the Weiss signing than if we had kept Fil? Here we are debating the merits of buying the guy out, having him count against the cap for the next 6 years despite not being on the roster, or retaining half salary for the next 3 years so he might be traded for something other than another massive liability...see the previous comments on this thread about Weiss being a "gigantic mistake", cooked, etc.

Again, as I wrote above, I don't doubt the ability of Wings fans to find something to complain about-- that's kind of the going rate around here. Sure people would frustrated that Fil doesn't shoot/score enough or whatever, but it's not as if we would be pining for Weiss or any of those other centers who were on the market in July '13 as a result of the "gigantic mistake" of giving in to Fil's demands.

 

[abbbaron]

Probably wishful thinking, but does anyone think there is a potential deal for Weiss with Florida? He's had his best success there, and maybe if we threw in something else for a conditional sixth or something, just to dump the contract?

Or, even more outlandish, we send Weiss to Florida for Dave Bolland and something else?

Yeah, probably wishful thinking. After all, that was the organization that knew him better than anyone else and they didn't make much of an effort to extend him-- I don't Weiss has made them regret that decision in the meantime. The flip-side is whether they're disappointed enough in Bolland, whose 5.5mil cap hit is bigger than Weiss' (the biggest of any forward on their club) and term is one year longer. But Bolland is still looks like he's capable of contributing in other areas of the game, whereas Weiss...

If Toronto is basically the only club willing to take Weiss, then I'd rather take on Lupul than Phaneuf, but I doubt they would be up for that deal (unless they commit themselves full-blooded to tanking for the next 3 years). Between Lupul and Franzen, hopefully one of them could be healthy while the other is inevitably out with an injury

 

[TheOtherOne]

Sheahan was Weiss's most common forward linemate by a pretty wide margin. Pulk and Helm were 2nd and 3rd. Anderrsson was 5th. I think the tales of his terrible linemates is a bit overblown.

Yea and all 3 of those guys have a points per minute production that's like 60% of Weiss' at best.