Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS)

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RobBrown4PM

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Yeah, they f***ed up the vast majority of the characters quite well.

The only part about TLJ I liked were the force conversations between Kylo and Rey, and the whole "f*** it all" speech.

AvP had a better f***ing story, characters and action than this mess.

Prove me wrong.
 

tacogeoff

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Jar Jar Binks was the first Gungan to represent his people in the Galactic Senate and eventually became a senator himself. He was one of the first and only Gungan's ever to travel abroad in the Galaxy. He served as one of the lead commanders in the Battle of Naboo and became a General in the Gungan Army.

Apparently you think he's a great character.

Lol finn=jar jar. Now I've heard it all lmao. Terrible comparison.
 

Pilky01

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Finn was absolutely the Jar Jar of this film. They both play the same role of comic relief. Only thing Finn was missing was the goofy accent.
 

RobBrown4PM

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Why does anybody have to "prove" anything? Can't somebody just enjoy a film without needing to justify it?

Some movies are movies, and that's that. SW is a cultural phenomenon that had massive ramifications across the board. Everyone on every corner of this planet knows who Luke Skywalker is, who Darth Vader is, what a lightsabre is.

Why do you think the prequels were lambasted? Lucas was basically a God that could do no wrong prior to the release of episode 1. Mixing in poor acting, bad writing and overused tropes, into a franchise like SW is gona net you deserved backlash.
 

tacogeoff

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Finn was absolutely the Jar Jar of this film. They both play the same role of comic relief. Only thing Finn was missing was the goofy accent.

Character wise though. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to acting, character development etc. Sure they make some wise cracks but then you can also say the poe character or chewie is on par with jar jar as they ad some comedy to the movies.

Jar jar is just jar jar in my books. He is one of a kind lol
 

HanSolo

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Some movies are movies, and that's that. SW is a cultural phenomenon that had massive ramifications across the board. Everyone on every corner of this planet knows who Luke Skywalker is, who Darth Vader is, what a lightsabre is.

Why do you think the prequels were lambasted? Lucas was basically a God that could do no wrong prior to the release of episode 1. Mixing in poor acting, bad writing and overused tropes, into a franchise like SW is gona net you deserved backlash.
You know it's possible that some of us see the prequels for the flawed messes they are but see the Disney films as still flawed yet far more enjoyable films right? I'm not going to directly accuse you of negativity or confirmation bias because that isn't a fair accusation but it's quite interesting how any time someone comes into this thread to dare say they enjoyed one of the three Disney Star Wars films, it's always the same posters who rush in to insist that they're horrible movies.

While no direct attack has been made, such behavior carries with it the implication that no person should be enjoying these films in any respect. I still think the prequels are horrible (and would happily watch any Disney Star Wars before one of 1-3)but I know there are still some who genuinely enjoy it. I don't engage on some crusade to make them look dumb for enjoying them. Your point has been made many times over RB4PM. You hated TLJ. Do you think it will be possible to sleep at night if others found a way to enjoy it?
 
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Osprey

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Some movies are movies, and that's that. SW is a cultural phenomenon that had massive ramifications across the board. Everyone on every corner of this planet knows who Luke Skywalker is, who Darth Vader is, what a lightsabre is.

Why do you think the prequels were lambasted? Lucas was basically a God that could do no wrong prior to the release of episode 1. Mixing in poor acting, bad writing and overused tropes, into a franchise like SW is gona net you deserved backlash.

A slight correction: Lucas could do no wrong prior to Star Wars Special Edition in 1997. That's when the backlash towards him started. In fact, to many of us, forever changing the original films that so many of us grew up with makes us angrier than the prequels do. It's possible to ignore that prequels/sequels were even made if we'll always have the original films, but Lucas somewhat robbed us of that. It's like how most Indiana Jones fans probably aren't "angry" that 'Crystal Skull' was made because the original trilogy is almost entirely untouched. We can just ignore that 'Crystal Skull' was made and enjoy the original trilogy as we have since we were kids. We can't do that with Star Wars. Even if we have or find the theatrical versions (and are happy with their quality), it's hard to not still get a little angry when going back and watching them.
 

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Some movies are movies, and that's that. SW is a cultural phenomenon that had massive ramifications across the board. Everyone on every corner of this planet knows who Luke Skywalker is, who Darth Vader is, what a lightsabre is.

Why do you think the prequels were lambasted? Lucas was basically a God that could do no wrong prior to the release of episode 1. Mixing in poor acting, bad writing and overused tropes, into a franchise like SW is gona net you deserved backlash.

There's a difference between critiquing the film and challenging anybody who enjoyed the film to prove you wrong. It comes off as confrontational which just feeds the cycle of extremism with the discussion about this film. And there are those on the opposite side of this argument that are just as bad, so I don't want to make it seem like just the "haters" do it. I'll admit that I've been guilty of trying to "prove" why I like certain Star Wars films in the past, so it does happen when you're passionate about something.
 

RobBrown4PM

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The movie stands on it's merits, or I should say, fails to come to attention due to it's lack of. Bad acting, poor storytelling, and terrible terrible use of movie tropes.
 

Supermassive

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You know it's possible that some of us see the prequels for the flawed messes they are but see the Disney films as still flawed yet far more enjoyable films right? I'm not going to directly accuse you of negativity or confirmation bias because that isn't a fair accusation but it's quite interesting how any time someone comes into this thread to dare say they enjoyed one of the three Disney Star Wars films, it's always the same posters who rush in to insist that they're horrible movies.

While no direct attack has been made, such behavior carries with it the implication that no person should be enjoying these films in any respect. I still think the prequels are horrible (and would happily watch any Disney Star Wars before one of 1-3)but I know there are still some who genuinely enjoy it. I don't engage on some crusade to make them look dumb for enjoying them. Your point has been made many times over RB4PM. You hated TLJ. Do you think it will be possible to sleep at night if others found a way to enjoy it?

It’s fascinating that some people will now spend hours, or even days, of their life, absolutely trashing something over and over. And they rise up every single time someone expresses appreciation for the thing they’re trashing.

I see it on this thread, and on the Oilers board in the Taylor Hall thread, and several others. It’s an irrational loathing for, yet an insatiable preoccupation with, something that has no effect on that person’s life. It’s damn near mental illness.

People need to let things go a little, sometimes.
 

Finlandia WOAT

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At all? He's regarded as a hero within the resistance and he knew his way around a dreadnought and how they might've been tracking the resistance. What more do you want exactly?

That it shape his character rather than being a plot device. Plus, on that note, there's nothing that Finn does that absolutely requires a defected stormtrooper (Rose also knows about dreadknoughts and how they're tracking, but that gives them a connection, so that's fine).

The problem with Finn is simple: TFA doesn't exactly explain why he broke on that mission. As in, why did this character refuse to shoot? Is he a coward? Does he have strong moral convictions? Was he emotionally distraught over the loss of his friend? The former seems to be what they're implying, but TFA and TLJ start out with that implication and then have Finn do very courageous things (and my take on TLJ was less cowardice and more he didn't care about the Rebellion, but he cared about Rey and so was going to warn her). The 3rd is eliminated, Finn claims he was a loner to Poe, and if it's the 2nd, then I can't tell you what they are.

Finn's opening scene (really, the whole opening sequence) is shot well, the language is clear- we know he's breaking- but the films never explain why. This is a consistent problem with JJ Abrams, he knows how to get the effect he wants on the audience, but he doesn't care if it actually makes sense for this character to be doing this or that. Finn is shocked at the death of the stormtrooper, he attends to the man, unsure what to do, the only one to care. A bloodpack explodes sending a stream of blood out of the dying man's sleeve, he reaches up toward Finn, for one last moment of connection, leaving a sanguine mark on Finn and marking him as different, he alone is affected by this loss in a storm of casual cruelty and death. A pan in to close up on Finn's crimson-streaked helmet seals the deal for the audience- even if you didn't know dick about dick about this movie (like me), you knew, this guy is gonna defect.

Then he clarifies that he had no friends and has no problem mowing his former comrades down by the dozens to escape, LMAO.

TLJ could have fixed this by clarifying what caused Finn to break and working from that angle. But they didn't, which is why his sequence is the worst in the film.
 
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HanSolo

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That it shape his character rather than being a plot device. Plus, on that note, there's nothing that Finn really does that absolutely demands a defected stormtrooper (Rose also knows about dreadknoughts and how they're tracking, but that gives them a connection, so that's fine).

The problem with Finn is simple: TFA doesn't exactly explain why he broke on that mission. As in, why did this character refuse to shoot? Is he a coward? Does he have strong moral convictions? Was he emotionally distraught over the loss of his friend? The former seems to be what they're implying, but TFA and TLJ start out with that implication and then have Finn do very courageous things (and my take on TLJ was less cowardice and more he didn't care about the Rebellion, but he cared about Rey and so was going to warn her). The 3rd is eliminated, Finn claims he was a loner to Poe, and if it's the 2nd, then I can't tell you what they are.

Finn's opening scene (really, the whole opening sequence) is shot well, the language is clear- we know he's breaking- but the films never explain why. This is a consistent problem with JJ Abrams, he knows how to get the effect he wants on the audience, but he doesn't care if it actually makes sense for this character to be doing this or that. Finn is shocked at the death of the stormtrooper, he attends to the man, unsure what to do, the only one to care. A bloodpack explodes sending a stream of blood out of the dying man's sleeve, he reaches up toward Finn, for one last moment of connection, leaving a sanguine mark on Finn and marking him as different, he alone is affected by this loss in a storm of casual cruelty and death. A pan in to close up on Finn's crimson-streaked helmet seals the deal for the audience- even if you didn't know dick about dick about this movie (like me), you knew, this guy is gonna defect.

Then he clarifies that he had no friends and has no problem mowing his former comrades down by the dozens to escape, LMAO.

TLJ could have fixed this by clarifying what caused Finn to break and working from that angle. But they didn't, which is why his sequence is the worst in the film.
What is there to explain that isn't implicit? Not that I believe TFA was perfect and JJ is a master storyteller, but films don't have to spell everything out for character motivations to be apparent. I've seen you cite to the death of his comrade to illustrate a character inconsistency in killing Stormtroopers but I don't think that's what causes him to turn. When he sees his friend die he loses his composure, sure. He stumbles around the battlefield in a daze. It was his first experience in a combat situation as is alluded to later I'm pretty sure. He doesn't act defiantly until he's ordered to fire on innocent civilians...his gun drops and he shakes his head like "I can't do this."

What mental gymnastics are necessary to infer that from there Finn might feel morally justified shooting Stormtroopers since they're the ones who are killing innocents (and the ease of turning makes sense when he alludes to the idea that they took him from parents he'd never know and effectively stripped him of any sort of freedom) and in the moment where he actually kills his former comrades, he really has no choice but to seek self preservation( since he'd be punished for deserting) and try to save Rey. I'll admit that the Maz Kanata castle battle scene is slightly contradictory to the point of Finn's character development between his desire to protect Rey and save his own skin. He's still deadset on escaping the First Order but at the same time he charges forward in a dangerous area to try and stop Rey's kidnapping. The climax of Finn's arch, being that he spends the movie in a "we have to run from the bad guys" mindset is supposed to be when he ignites the lightsaber and defiantly confronts Kylo Ren to save Rey.

Although now that I think about it his inconsistency in not quite fighting for the Resistance but being more interested in the safety and survival of his friend at least carries over to The Last Jedi. He's not as much interested in stopping the First Order when he goes to Starkiller Base as he is in rescuing Rey. When the First Order attacks the Resistance ships in TLJ he's back to worrying about dying and getting the tracker off the ship so Rey wouldn't walk into a trap.

Finn has issues in how he's written, I won't deny that but it's more that he's relegated to a comic relief character but then also supposed to be taken seriously as one of the heroes. I don't hate his comedy, but in some parts it does feel unnecessarily out of place. But as to his character motivations, if my choice in what I get from the movie is ambiguity that demands inference (and personally I don't feel his motivations are all that ambiguous) about a character or having said character announce what he's feeling as he/she feels it and inundate the script with expository fluff. I mean do we really need a heart on the sleeve wearing Anakin from the guy?

Rey never SAYS why she wants to return to Jakku to anyone other than BB-8 and that wasn't even saying why she wanted to return. Just that she was sure her parents would return for her one day. She doesn't explain how her scavenging of tech gives her technological knowledge. We don't know why Kylo Ren had such anger and resentment of his father, him telling Rey that he didn't hate Han Solo is actually a bit maddening because it suggests a more complex relationship that we didn't expect but we may never get the context for the inconsistency. But if I start alluding to the vagueities in the characters of the new films it's just gonna invite more circular argumentation that new Disney sucks. How about the OT characters. How about Luke? We know he works this farm and he applied for a flight Academy. What academy? The imperial academy? Or is there some academy for the rebellion? He mentions his friends are going off to find the war then we see his friends are fighters for the rebellion. We see he hates the Empire but why? What is the Empire doing to this middle of nowhere moisture farm on a middle of nowhere outer rim planet? How is that missing character motivation any different? Moreover how does he get his piloting skills. He says he used to blast womp rats in some ship. If he's this intrepid kid looking to the stars desperate to see more why doesn't he just leave Tattoine for a bit in that ship? Is the ship not strong enough? Can he really not break away from looking at power converters at Toshe Station to try something like that? And speaking of the ship, if money was such an issue in paying Han Solo why wouldn't he just sell his speeder AND the ship, did the ship ever exist in the first place? We never see it. And how does flying around a canyon qualify you to become a starfighter in the midst of a civil war?

Then Han Solo, what does he smuggle? Who does he smuggle it to? Does he make good money doing what he's doing? If the Empire is so problematic to his way of life why doesn't he use the skills he boasts about to help bring them down? (the question is never asked and never addressed, but anyone with a brain can infer that following orders and being a military man wouldn't suit his lifestyle...but this is never TOLD to us. Not even remotely), if the Rebellion has already sufficiently paid off Han Solo to settle his debts with Jabba why does that have to spell the end of his helping them? Why can't the Rebellion just send an envoy to deliver the payment? And even if it HAD to be Han, why does that mean he can't help the Rebellion anymore. He says his goodbyes like the Rebellion has permanently lost his services...why? He's been helping the war effort for something like three years. Why hasn't he paid Jabba back in these three years? Was he not getting paid enough? Cause it seemed like he got paid more than well enough by the end of the second act of ANH. Why couldn't he hop over to Jabba's palace to pay off Jabba then rejoin the Rebellion?

Okay then Leia, she's a princess of Alderaan. How does the Empire tolerate a monarchial rule under a Totalitarian regime? She implies the Galactic Senate won't stand for her mistreatment by Darth Vader, and what are they going to do exactly? Can Alderaan make any kind of political protest to have him and his lackeys reprimanded? It's briefly implied but Darth Vader just resumes imposing his will on her. Anyway how was Alderaan involved with the Rebellion? What was Leia's role? Was she a captain? Was she a benefactor? How did she get the plans (we know that now but didn't in any of the OT movies), what is Leia and Alderaan's beef with the Empire anyway? In what way are they oppressing them? How does Leia operate within the rebellion while officially doing diplomatic work for the Empire? What kind of diplomatic work anyway? What the hell kind of diplomacy does the Empire need when they have total rule over the Galaxy? Then, we know that Han is attracted to Leia despite the fact that she annoys him. What indication does Leia give that she might be interested in Han? It's one thing to have a romance start after an initial disdain but Leia speaks to Han like he's a vile snake until he comes back to save Luke. Sure her getting flustered when he almost leaves in Empire is a light behavioral cue but even after Han saves Leia again she speaks to him condescendingly and with anger. Are we to believe that she only falls for him cause of his few gallant acts and the boldness of his kiss? What is going on behind the surface with Leia that makes her jump from calling him bad names to telling him she loves him? She doesn't say much outside of "you have your moments, not often, but you have them" to the effect of actual feelings for him.

But the point is does any of that ambiguity and vagueness matter? Obviously not. All we need to know is the little we get for every vagueness in character motivations and backstory I listed above. Everything else goes to inference. If you can't deduce why Finn defected from inference then you're trying not to understand.
 

Finlandia WOAT

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What is there to explain that isn't implicit? Not that I believe TFA was perfect and JJ is a master storyteller, but films don't have to spell everything out for character motivations to be apparent. I've seen you cite to the death of his comrade to illustrate a character inconsistency in killing Stormtroopers but I don't think that's what causes him to turn. When he sees his friend die he loses his composure, sure. He stumbles around the battlefield in a daze. It was his first experience in a combat situation as is alluded to later I'm pretty sure. He doesn't act defiantly until he's ordered to fire on innocent civilians...his gun drops and he shakes his head like "I can't do this."

The discussion I was replying to concerned whether or not the context of Finn's defection from the First Order was explored at all.

Not if it made logical sense. Whether or not it had anything to do with his character as presented in the film.

So I'm not saying, "They didn't explain why he broke, and that's bad because motivation and goals and stuff.", or "They didn't explain such and such logical detail, so it's terrible!", but "They didn't explain why he broke, and therefore missed an important opportunity to inform the audience of who Finn is and his specific role in this story." This is a frustrating example of Abrams' deficiencies as a storyteller because the opening sequence is very well done. He takes a guy who psychologically broke down on his first combat mission and had to run away from the only life he's known for most of his adult existence, and hardly does anything character related with it.

If you look at it, all TFA and TLJ use his character history for is plot convenience. Finn knows the layout of Starkiller Base, and he knows how they're tracking the Rebels. Not how that made him who he is today. This is something that should define Finn's character in the films, and it's hardly mentioned again!

Rey never SAYS why she wants to return to Jakku to anyone other than BB-8 and that wasn't even saying why she wanted to return. Just that she was sure her parents would return for her one day.

That was also dumb, for the same reason. Again, the problem here isn't that it's outside the realm of rational thought and possibility that someone is so obsessed with the family which abandoned her that she will wait for them like the sad puppy she is, it's that you have a potential character defining trait for the character and don't explicate it at all. Why is Rey obsessed with her family? Who knows. Why is she certain they'll come back? Meh.

Anyone can break, anyone can have abandonment issues, but why did Finn break? Why is Rey crippled with abandonment issues? The film doesn't care about these questions, for the former, all it wants is to get Finn out of the First Order (hence why his psychological trauma is never mentioned again), for the latter it's banking that the audience will think, "Wait, I have a family, and I'd be pretty sad if they abandoned me!". Which is shorthand.

If you can't deduce why Finn defected from inference then you're trying not to understand.

Let me phrase it this way. Is there anything in TFA or TLJ that absolutely requires we, the audience, see the exact and specific manner in which Finn defected from the First Order?

Honestly, not really. If anything, the importance isn't in the content itself, it's the timing- Ren and Phasma both react to Finn's betrayal in a manner that isn't exact for someone who betrayed them 6 months, or 5 years or whatever ago.

DONE EDITING
 
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HanSolo

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The discussion I was replying to concerned whether or not the context of Finn's defection from the First Order was explored at all.

Not if it made logical sense. Whether or not it had anything to do with his character as presented in the film.

So I'm not saying, "They didn't explain why he broke, and that's bad because motivation and goals and stuff.", or "They didn't explain such and such logical detail, so it's terrible!", but "They didn't explain why he broke, and therefore missed an important opportunity to inform the audience of who Finn is and his specific role in this story." This is a frustrating example of Abrams' deficiencies as a storyteller because the opening sequence is very well done. He takes a guy who psychologically broke down on his first combat mission and had to run away from the only life he's known for most of his adult life, and hardly does anything character related with it.

If you look at it, all TFA and TLJ use his character history for is plot convenience. Finn knows the layout of Starkiller Base, and he knows how they're tracking the Rebels. Not how that made him who he is today. This is something that should define Finn's character in the films, and it's hardly mentioned again!



That was also dumb, for the same reason. Again, the problem here isn't that it's outside the realm of rational thought and possibility that someone is so obsessed with the family which abandoned her that she will wait for them like the sad puppy she is, it's that you have a potential character defining trait her and don't explicate it at all. Why is Rey obsessed with her family? Who knows. Why is she certain they'll come back? Meh.

Anyone can break, anyone can have abandonment issues, but why did Finn break? Why is Rey crippled with abandonment issues?


Why are these concepts so needlessly complex to you?

Rey: Grew up on a desert shithole having to fend for herself whose only parental figure was a dick alien who ran a feudalistic scavenging economy for the inhabitants' survival.

Why does Rey have to SAY she has abandonment issues? How is it not implied from her opening scenes? I mean sure it's just as likely that she could grow cynical and decide to live life without the parents that abandoned her but why is the reverse of a typical trope such a logical leap? She counts every day she spends on Jakku, it's pretty implied she's been doing that every since she was young. The implication is that a reunion with her parents is the only positive future she has to look forward to.

And as to the implausibility of her waiting around on Jakku, what else is she supposed to do? She doesn't make money. she trades scrap for food. Sure it's implied she takes ships out for joyrides and she could just steal one and try to make her way in the galaxy somehow, and I'll grant you...that could be an intriguing way to start a hero's journey but is it really that film breaking that she doesn't?

Finn: Again, I don't know what's hard about being ordered to kill his first outing having to use a blaster, seeing the act as evil, and not wanting to be party to that evil.

I really don't understand what more needs to be explored. A former footsoldier sees the evil in his cause, defects, and then joins the other side. That kind of stuff happened in real life, not just in Star Wars. And it's not like it's not explored AT ALL. You can argue the basis of Poe's respect for Finn is his defection. Poe is a hardcore believer in the Resistance cause and it's easy to infer that he would hold Finn in high regard for what he did. Leia personally commends him for his bravery in doing so. Rose holds him up as almost an icon in viewing him as a hero for what he did. Finn adds his own context by saying he was stolen from a family he had never known and when he saw the horrors of the First Order he vowed never to kill for them.

What. more. do. we. need? "The guys that kidnapped me are even more evil than I thought." seems to be pretty sufficient motivation to me. Do we need a whole side plot of Phasma enacting a detailed investigation in how Finn might have become defiant? Do we need to see a detailed record of every First Order defector/deserter/traitor to have a more robust idea of the fallibility of the First Order training programs to determine the credibility of Finn's decisions? Do we need his monologue on why he ran to be another 15 minutes long?

I don't get it. Bad guys are bad and I don't want to help bad guys is such a basic and simple motivation I truly don't understand what it is about it that challenges you.
 

JackSlater

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Seeing the Finn character so poorly defended just makes me realize again how much of an issue he is for this new trilogy. It isn't as simple as a soldier changing his mind. This guy was raised to be a stormtrooper, doesn't remember his family, didn't even have a name. He would have grown up under almost complete indoctrination or at least with little individuality. For him to suddenly defect at the first chance with such flimsy motivation given his history is lazy at best, but stupid is more accurate. Even worse is that he then comes off to his new allies as a normal, almost cheery guy who cracks jokes and seems to have no issues stemming from defecting from the only life he has ever known. Again lazy is one possibility, but it comes off more as stupid. Given that horrible background, I would say that what they did with him in The Last Jedi was just par for the course, the only difference being that in this movie he was completely superfluous to the plot while remaining horribly developed. Terrible character that wastes a decent actor and a decent idea.
 

Finlandia WOAT

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Rey: Grew up on a desert ****hole having to fend for herself whose only parental figure was a dick alien who ran a feudalistic scavenging economy for the inhabitants' survival.

Why does Rey have to SAY she has abandonment issues? How is it not implied from her opening scenes? I mean sure it's just as likely that she could grow cynical and decide to live life without the parents that abandoned her but why is the reverse of a typical trope such a logical leap? She counts every day she spends on Jakku, it's pretty implied she's been doing that every since she was young. The implication is that a reunion with her parents is the only positive future she has to look forward to.

Are you reading what I write??

The problem isn't whether it makes logical sense. The problem is that something is established about the character and then, rather then mining that for insight into the character or creating dramatic tension or getting the audience to sympathize with the character or forming the character around that basis or at least their character arc or going anywhere with it, it's used it for plot convenience.

Why is Rey obsessed with her parents? Who knows. This is here not to make Rey seem real, nor to dramatize some of her suffering- it's simply there to give her a reason to refuse the call to adventure. At least this was somewhat, kinda, not really clarified in TLJ.

Why does Finn break? Screw you, that's why. We're just going to use his horrific upbringing and implied (lol) psychological trauma so he can tell the Rebels that he knows the plans to the Death Star. Sucks for your psyche Finn, I guess all the Bothan spies were killed.

Movies (stories) aren't a checklist. You don't give your character a motivation and then ignore that for the rest of the film, or put them through a character defining moment and then only use that for plot convenience. You get boring, lifeless characters otherwise.

I really don't understand what more needs to be explored. A former footsoldier sees the evil in his cause, defects, and then joins the other side. That kind of stuff happened in real life, not just in Star Wars

This is exactly my point! It's justified not because of anything the film says about Finn, it's justified because it's logical. It gets Finn out of the Order and then moves on like it never happened.

Think about this for a freaking second: a guy, impressed into a Fascist militia at a young age, gets his first taste of combat and it abso-f***ing-lutely breaks him. No longer can he stand idly by, now he absolutely must escape by any means necessary.

Or a girl is abandoned at a young age by her parents on a desert wasteland. Every day is a battle for survival. She has to put her life on the line as a matter of course- yet she patiently waits, day in, day out, doing nothing to improve her situation, or escape, or anything. Just confident in the fact that they will return. That's impressive! That takes a strong will. Most people would give up a long time ago, if they hadn't formed a resentment, a hatred of their parents. That she didn't do that is extraordinary!

These are powerful forces here, and all Abrams can think to do with this is a plot device?!?! So forgive me for seeing these things and immediately assuming that the movie was actually going to do something with it. The failure to build their characters out of clearly defined character moments is why these characters are "controversial" (read: poorly written).

 
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HanSolo

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Are you reading what I write??

The problem isn't whether it makes logical sense. The problem is that something is established about the character and then, rather then mining that for insight into the character or creating dramatic tension or getting the audience to sympathize with the character or forming the character around that basis or at least their character arc or going anywhere with it, it's used it for plot convenience.

Why is Rey obsessed with her parents? Who knows. This is here not to make Rey seem real, nor to dramatize some of her suffering- it's simply there to give her a reason to refuse the call to adventure. At least this was somewhat, kinda, not really clarified in TLJ.

Why does Finn break? Screw you, that's why. We're just going to use his horrific upbringing and implied (lol) psychological trauma so he can tell the Rebels that he knows the plans to the Death Star. Sucks for your psyche Finn, I guess all the Bothan spies were killed.

Movies (stories) aren't a checklist. You don't give your character a motivation and then ignore that for the rest of the film, or put them through a character defining moment and then only use that for plot convenience. You get boring, lifeless characters otherwise.



This is exactly my point! It's justified not because of anything the film says about Finn, it's justified because it's logical. It gets Finn out of the Order and then moves on like it never happened.

Think about this for a freaking second: a guy, impressed into a Fascist militia at a young age, gets his first taste of combat and it abso-****ing-lutely breaks him. No longer can he stand idly by, now he absolutely must escape by any means necessary.

Or a girl is abandoned at a young age by her parents on a desert wasteland. Every day is a battle for survival. She has to put her life on the line as a matter of course- yet she patiently waits, day in, day out, doing nothing to improve her situation, or escape, or anything. Just confident in the fact that they will return. That's impressive! That takes a strong will. Most people would give up a long time ago, if they hadn't formed a resentment, a hatred of their parents. That she didn't do that is extraordinary!

These are powerful forces here, and all Abrams can think to do with this is a plot device?!?! So forgive me for seeing these things and immediately assuming that the movie was actually going to do something with it. The failure to build their characters out of clearly defined character moments is why these characters are "controversial" (read: poorly written).


As to Rey refusing the call to adventure tell me how that isn't Han's character to a T pretty much until the Empire attack Hoth? The only thing that motivates him out of being uncooperative in the grand scheme is money and a sudden change in conscience at the end. E.G. plot convenience. Him being an outlaw serves no real purpose other than to have a fun, lovable, space cowboy who resists any impulse to engage in heroism until it's convenient to the plot for dramatic effect.. We don't know why he doesn't want to use his talents for good...or evil for that matter. None of that is explored or fleshed out. We simply have a wanna-be dashing rogue who runs into our main protagonist and for unexplored reasons (other than money) he plays the unwilling hero role.

Luke is written as an every-man but other than being a relatable audience vehicle, his character motivations are not fleshed out in any way. He wants to be a pilot. Cool. How do we know he wasn't gonna be a pilot for the Empire? To what extent would that life goal allow him to bend his morals to achieve it? WHY does he want to be a pilot so badly? Why does he want to leave Tattooine so badly? Why when he finds out about the Jedi does he want to be one so badly? Cause his father was? Cause he thinks it might help him fight the Empire? Cause he thinks it might help him be a better pilot? Cause Ben told him to and he feels bad? If we're talking characters as written needing sense and purpose to their behavior then you need to acknowledge that Luke goes from wanting to be some galactic fighter ace to going full "I wanna be a Jedi like my father." faster than his father fell to the dark side. Does it not concern him one bit that his father's chosen career path resulted in his death? On that note what connection does he have to his father anyway? He never met the man, why is he so devoted to carrying on his legacy and become a hero like him? Is it because he feels some strange obsession with this man he never met (wonder what that sounds like) or is it because he wants to use being a Jedi as a platform to become a space adventurer and a hero? Who knows? None of the original 3 movies give us the reasons for this motivation, yet they don't suffer for it.

And then Leia. Yes she's a princess. Yes she's involved with the Rebels. In what capacity though? What is her ranks? She gives orders to people like she has authority but that authority is never established. Is she a general? Is she a captain? A lieutenant? A major? What? Is she allowed to give people orders simply because she was a princess of a planet that got blown up? And why is she risking her neck crossing the Empire when she's not a trained soldier in the first place. Easy answer is heroism and that's all you really need, but if we're applying the strict scrutiny you're applying to D!SW, then one must ask why she doesn't simply remain with the commanders since she seems to be some high authority of some kind. Why is she out there risking her life carrying sensitive information. Is NO ONE else more disposable capable of something like this? Why does Alderaan and Leia even involve themselves in the first place? It's a peaceful planet on the still existing Senate. Why don't they just mind their own business on Alderaan and continue on as normal? Outside of battles and the destruction of Alderaan we never really see what horrible evils the Empire are committing. We have no sense as to what is necessitating a Rebellion other than the mere presence of an Empire and their fascist overtones. What cause does Alderaan have to overthrow the Empire? What atrocities are so bad that we need this seemingly very valuable Princess to put her life on the line? Could it just be that Bad guys bad, must stop (or maybe get away from) bad guys...sort of how Finn's motivation is a simple inference? If we apply your standards then we need to know why Alderaan is even bothering in the first place and why Leia is put at risk with the most sensitive missions the Rebellion has. Maybe even some background in to why the rebellion trusts her to do these things. We don't even get a canonical sense of such things until Star Wars Rebels.

The point of this is not to say the OT is weak. But that across Star Wars if you squint your eyes hard enough there's always going to be underdevelopment, ambiguity, and show don't tell. I only addressed the "Big three" OT characters but if I wrote you a dissertation on how all three OT movies left an incredible amount of detail and development out it would be a loooong read. The prequels were far more "tell more than you show" and in the end it got marred with poorly written exposition that made large portions of the trilogy painfully boring to sit through. You know, the majority opinion on Solo: ASWS, is that we didn't NEED to explore why and/or how Han Solo became Han Solo and that's because that's very much true. Han Solo is what he is and he serves his purpose to the plot and it works. Star Wars characters don't NEED full exploration to get their job done. In fact, as we've seen to the contrary with Anakin Skywalker over-development can result in a sloppy and ultimately unlikable character. Now would I be opposed to Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo, etc. being written in a more robust way? Not at all. In the right hands, so long as it doesn't bog the films down too much I'd be all for it. I never said the new SW characters were among the best written characters ever. Far from it, but I think there's more distance between very well written and poorly written characters than you seem to be demonstrating. Finn and the others, for my purposes as a viewer, get the job done in the way they need to (though I wish they'd tone down some of Finn's buffoonery) to advance the story.

I just personally don't see what is so damn essential to finding out the full roadmap of Finn's psyche to figure why he defected. He had a stronger moral compass than the rest of his fellow Stormtroopers and when first asked to aid in evil that he hadn't yet seen, he refused. And if he stayed he'd be executed if he kept refusing, if he didn't run as far as he can after deserting, he'd executed for desertion. Instead he finds a middle ground eventually with the Resistance and fights back against evil. This is f***ing Star Wars not William Gibson's Necromauncer or Brave New World. At its core it's always been about good's struggle against evil. We were never going to get Apocalypse Now or Fullmetal Jacket with the in depth look into a stormtrooper's defection even out of the Golden Age Star Wars storytellers. And it's not what Star Wars necessarily needs.

Now I will readily admit that Snoke and the backstory with the Resistance/Republic/First Order was wildly insufficient. I gave it a pass in TFA because as a set up movie and a modern restart button I thought it was fine to focus more on introducing characters and leaving unanswered questions for Rian Johnson to answer but he provided very very little. While I still enjoy TLJ as a more dumb sci fi action flick, these flaws do disappoint me.

But in terms of the characters complexity, Star Wars has never had robust and complex characters. It just hasn't. Ironically enough I feel Cassian Andor was a totally botched character but he demonstrated a great deal of complexity compared to the norm. But regardless, these standards the new characters are being held to strike me more as "why aren't these new Star Wars films Blade Runner?" Star Wars has never been a deep series of think pieces. Sure they explore a variety of themes but these explorations are kept simple and surface level.


And to your victim attitude with "forgive me for...", I think we can resume a healthy debate without such attitudes that have no cause. I never attacked you personally and you were the one that fired the first shot in this debate. I've simply been responding in kind.
 
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Finlandia WOAT

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May 23, 2010
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We don't know why he doesn't want to use his talents for good

He tells us. This isn't his personal fight, and no amount of money would get him to fly what he considers a suicide mission. He's a loner who doesn't care about the fight for good and evil, which was established earlier when Luke failed in appealing to his sense of morality ("Let's save the princess!") but succeeded in appealing to his sense of greed ("She's rich"). He's conflicted about it, but he leaves the Rebel base and then we cheer! when he comes back. Han's arc is clear and impactful, Finn's arc is muddled and meh.

As to Rey refusing the call to adventure tell me how that isn't Han's character to a T pretty much until the Empire attack Hoth?
No. Han's arc is going from a selfish loner to a team player, forming a connection with Luke and Leia, finding a cause bigger than his own needs, etc etc.

It would be as if Han were told in the first ten minutes of ANH that he has to become more selfless, and he spent the entire runtime denying that only to admit at the end that, yeah, maybe I do need to change, rather than spending his time forming bonds with Luke and Leia and becoming invested in their cause through them.

Rey's arc is denying the call to adventure (literally, the little green bartender alien tells her that this is her destiny, Rey refuses and doesn't accept until the end) for the duration of the runtime.

And then Leia. Yes she's a princess. Yes she's involved with the Rebels. In what capacity though? What is her ranks? She gives orders to people like she has authority but that authority is never established. Is she a general? Is she a captain? A lieutenant? A major? What? Is she allowed to give people orders simply because she was a princess of a planet that got blown up? And why is she risking her neck crossing the Empire when she's not a trained soldier in the first place. Easy answer is heroism and that's all you really need, but if we're applying the strict scrutiny you're applying to D!SW, then one must ask why she doesn't simply remain with the commanders since she seems to be some high authority of some kind. Why is she out there risking her life carrying sensitive information. Is NO ONE else more disposable capable of something like this

Stop comparing character issues to logical nitpicks.

I just personally don't see what is so damn essential to finding out the full roadmap of Finn's psyche to figure why he defected.

It's the other way around. Why he defected gives us a roadmap of Finn's psyche, explains who he is as a person, tells us what drives and motivates him and (most pertinent!) should serve as the basis of his character, given it's the first time we see him.

Finn's character in TFA is torn between going home and staying with Rey. This means nothing to us, since we haven't seen what "home" is for Finn, which means we don't know what it means to him, and if we don't know what it means to him, why would it mean anything at all to us? What they did show us was him breaking in combat and defecting- so why is his character written about wanting to go home instead of that?

The solution is to either rewrite his character from the basis that he is a until-recently-slave-soldier who has never lived life on his own, never had a real relationship, never had a real name....or start the film with a scene that features child Finn at home. Show us what he has lost, and what he stands to gain by going back, so there's some actual drama involved in choosing between Rey and going home.

What you DO NOT do is open with a scene of Finn psychologically breaking at the first sign of combat, then proceed to never bring up that angle from a character perspective again. Or establish that Rey is committed enough to endure a decade and change of literal slavery, privation and destitution to wait for her parents to come back (despite the obviousness that they won't) to the point that she will refuse all opportunities to move the eff on, and not explain or dramatize the source of this determination.

Rose's first scene in TLJ establishes two obvious things about her: her sister has just died, and she is a true believer in the Resistance. It does this so well that Rose flips from gushing fan girl to shooting Finn first in a blink of an eye. So when there's a scene later where Rose has an opportunity to run away with Finn, to abandon the Resistance certainly doomed to die, her refusal is coming from somewhere. (Not that Rose is a particularly good character, I'm trying to keep the examples to Star Wars). When she gives up her sister's medallion to del Toro, it's a heroic sacrifice because it's all that she has left to remember her sister: when del Toro returns the pendant, we think that it's character growth from del Toro (psyche!).

Luke is written as an every-man but other than being a relatable audience vehicle, his character motivations are not fleshed out in any way

Luke wants to leave home and make something of himself, as well as the struggle between wanting to become who you are and your commitments to home and hearth. This is something literally every person in America will empathize with and understand. Hence why Luke Skywalker is a cultural icon: he captures what it means to be an inchoate young adult in the 1960's- and really today.

How many people do you think will empathize easily with a person who willingly spent a decade as a slave, waiting for parents never to return? Or a recently liberated child soldier?

Hence why Luke works with minimal explanation while you should have some for Rey and Finn.

The problem with Rey is that Abrams and the braintrust wrote an anti-Luke. Luke wanted to get off his godforsaken rock and make something of himself, but is basically forced to stay; Rey wants to stay despite ample opportunities to leave. Which can work if you then ask yourself "Why would someone do such a thing?" and then write her character based on that.

The problem with Finn is that Abrams and the braintrust wrote a character as "DEFECTOR STORMTROOPER", but rather than thinking what might make such a person, they filmed a competent scene in which, via shorthand, it's communicated that he's defecting. Bank on the audience presuming that of course he's defecting! He realized the Empire are the bad guys! and you get Finn: a character with little actual character.

To emphasize this point: explain to me, as simply as possible, Finn. What makes him tick? Why is Finn who he is? 'Cause I see a guy that is an amalgamation of traits without any driving focus to unite them. The most egregious example is staging Finn's opening as a guy who refuses to kill innocents, helps his fellow soldier- yet fails to make much of a statement on his character. It's using a powerful scene as setup for plot devices rather than character.

with the in depth look into a stormtrooper's defection

But in terms of the characters complexity, Star Wars has never had robust and complex characters


I'm not asking for an in depth look or a character study. Finn defected because X. This makes him Y person in this story.

If X doesn't cause Y, show us the scene that does.
 
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x Tame Impala

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It’s fascinating that some people will now spend hours, or even days, of their life, absolutely trashing something over and over. And they rise up every single time someone expresses appreciation for the thing they’re trashing.

I see it on this thread, and on the Oilers board in the Taylor Hall thread, and several others. It’s an irrational loathing for, yet an insatiable preoccupation with, something that has no effect on that person’s life. It’s damn near mental illness.

People need to let things go a little, sometimes.

I get what you're saying. People care about what they care about though and there's not much to be done that'll change that. As a sports fan you should know that. Star Wars is an incredibly influential part of entertainment culture so the reactions to these movies shouldn't be THAT surprising.

I was personally so upset because of the 2 years of buildup of this franchise getting me so excited for it to only fall flat on its face. I really think that TLJ was horrible enough to not only ruin itself as a sequel, but to ruin the new trilogy as a whole. I have no idea how they're going to make the final installment compelling whatsoever.

I'm still blown away that people were able to find enough redeeming qualities of this movie that they were able to convince themselves it was good. Whatever though, to each their own. Like it all you want but TLJ was a disorganized disaster if you look at it critically for even a moment. I've talked this to death so i'll stop here.

However, if anyone is interested, this is IMHO the most comprehensive and well articulated critique of TLJ. It's a 3-part series, very long, but IMO worth it if you care enough about Star Wars and/or just want to learn about dissecting writing techniques in film...



 

tacogeoff

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Interesting videos but they could of really condensed their critique....made it about 15mins into the first vid, started the third vid but it was pretty hyperbole/whiney at the beginning so that didn't last long.

As far as I am concerned TLJ is a Sci-fi movie from a franchise that has been known for subpar writing, outlandish fun and adventure....TLJ as far as I am concerned as a viewer wasn't made to be in contention for an Oscar or to be a feature at the Cannes Film Festival....it was made to be an entertaining scifi movie like the rest and to maximize profits.

The movie was not great but as a person who has followed only the movie series it really felt like a standard Star Wars movie. Now for the "superfan" who reads the books, follows the lore, cartoons and video games they probably expected more from the movie and were disappointed and they rightly can be so but I personally feel they expected too much from a franchise that has never been very deep to begin with.

Jmo on the movie.
 

MadDevil

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I'm somebody who consumes just about everything Star Wars and I thoroughly enjoyed the film. It was definitely not what I expected, but that didn't take anything away from it. I learned my lesson with the prequels to not be too precious with my expectations.

Do I think it's a perfect film? Absolutely not. Some of the humor didn't quite hit with me, I'm not a big fan of the Finn/Rose storyline, the Poe/Holdo stuff felt a bit clunky, and Leia flying in space still looks weird (although the music in that scene still hits me every time). I absolutely loved all the stuff dealing with the Force, and to me it carried the film. Say what you want to about Luke being a beaten down old man at the beginning, but it worked for me. Yes, I would have liked to get a little backstory on Snoke, but ultimately he's just there to move Kylo Ren's story along.

I do have a couple gripes about both TFA and TLJ though. Phasma is a waste of a cool looking character and talented actor. Where the hell are the OT aliens? You can't throw a Rodian or a Twi'lek in either Maz's castle or Canto Bight? And why do they keep underusing Artoo and Threepio? I know it's a "new" trilogy, but I don't see why that means they have to push those two aside.
 

Osprey

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Seeing the Finn character so poorly defended just makes me realize again how much of an issue he is for this new trilogy. It isn't as simple as a soldier changing his mind. This guy was raised to be a stormtrooper, doesn't remember his family, didn't even have a name. He would have grown up under almost complete indoctrination or at least with little individuality. For him to suddenly defect at the first chance with such flimsy motivation given his history is lazy at best, but stupid is more accurate. Even worse is that he then comes off to his new allies as a normal, almost cheery guy who cracks jokes and seems to have no issues stemming from defecting from the only life he has ever known. Again lazy is one possibility, but it comes off more as stupid. Given that horrible background, I would say that what they did with him in The Last Jedi was just par for the course, the only difference being that in this movie he was completely superfluous to the plot while remaining horribly developed. Terrible character that wastes a decent actor and a decent idea.

I agree. The Finn character doesn't match his backstory at all. He has far too much personality, individuality and indecisiveness for us to ever believe that he was raised and indoctrinated to be a stormtrooper. Even if we buy that he somehow resisted all of the indoctrination, we also have to buy that he wasn't weeded out as unfit to be a soldier at some point in his life, and because he was never weeded out, we have to assume that there were never any signs that he resisted indoctrination.

We're just supposed to accept that this indoctrinated soldier with a clean record flipped because he lost one friend (which, itself, doesn't make much sense, since they're stripped of individuality and have only numbers for names) and turned traitor, even though, in reality, a coward like him would likely be too afraid of the punishment (probably death) to even think about it. Absolutely no thought was seemingly put into the character at all. Someone (perhaps Abrams) just thought, "I need a comic sidekick character and Poe needs help escaping, so I'll kill two birds with one stone and make a defecting stormtrooper be the comic relief character," even though it makes no sense.
 
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RobBrown4PM

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Thank God for actual good science fiction out there. Because the supposed King of the genre, SW, is a lame bloody duck, now rife with terrible characters, terrible choices those characters make.
 
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