Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS)

[Finlandia WOAT]

He has far too much personality, individuality and indecisiveness

This is exactly it.

Finn was impressed into a Fascist militia at a young age, so young he can't even remember his own name. He spent his entire adult life with them; never formed any bonds with anyone in said militia; and on his first taste of live combat broke mentally and ultimately had to run for his life from the only existence he's known.

AND HE DOESN'T ACT LIKE IT AT ALL

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Don't forget he was also entrusted with some of the highest access out there, however, he hadn't even participated in anything of note militarily, by his own admission and the movies.

Edit: He was also a janitor, when he had said high level access.

 

[MadDevil]

Thank God for actual good science fiction out there. Because the supposed King of the genre, SW, is a lame bloody duck, now rife with terrible characters, terrible choices those characters make.

Star Wars is more space fantasy than science fiction.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

These two posts above really drive home the point that Star Wars scripts don't seem to get proofread at all. How could anyone defend the writing in those movies?

 

[Shareefruck]

You know it's possible that some of us see the prequels for the flawed messes they are but see the Disney films as still flawed yet far more enjoyable films right? I'm not going to directly accuse you of negativity or confirmation bias because that isn't a fair accusation but it's quite interesting how any time someone comes into this thread to dare say they enjoyed one of the three Disney Star Wars films, it's always the same posters who rush in to insist that they're horrible movies.

While no direct attack has been made, such behavior carries with it the implication that no person should be enjoying these films in any respect. I still think the prequels are horrible (and would happily watch any Disney Star Wars before one of 1-3)but I know there are still some who genuinely enjoy it. I don't engage on some crusade to make them look dumb for enjoying them. Your point has been made many times over RB4PM. You hated TLJ. Do you think it will be possible to sleep at night if others found a way to enjoy it?

True to a degree, but I'm curious if you feel the same way about people who feel the need to scoff or push back any time anyone says speaks positively about their experience with the prequels. The motivation to react that way is the same, really-- the bar is just set at a different height.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I'll give the prequels this; Lucas knew the direction he wanted to go in, and he did. The execution of it all was basically a war crime, however, I can see what he was trying to do. Had he had more outspoken talent, and had he dropped his dictoral rule over the movies, I think they would have turned out pretty good.

This new set of sequels, or w/e, have no direction. You see that in the fact that they keep rehashing old plots from the originals. And you see it in the characters as well, none of them outside of Rey really have motivation or desire or goal to strive towards, well up until TLJ at least. Said motivation/goal (Luke) is now dead.

 

[HanSolo]

True to a degree, but I'm curious if you feel the same way about people who feel the need to scoff or push back any time anyone says speaks positively about their experience with the prequels. The motivation to react that way is the same, really-- the bar is just set at a different height.

When the tone of the dissent is such that it comes off more like witchhunting supposed inferior purveyors of art through cinema? Absolutely. I don't agree with people who like the prequels but I can at least understand why some might find value in them. They were ambitious, action packed, the story on a more surface level is a compelling one (even if executed poorly). Like there's stuff to like there. I wouldn't judge someone for liking them.

And again, at least people here haven't been dropping any direct personal insults at people who enjoyed the new films so that's a plus. At least we're above the level of youtube commenters and Reddit. But there still seems to be an inherent implication that if you don't see all that's wrong and hate these films then you are not a good evaluator of films.

I recognize the new Star Wars films have flaws. I'd even say they haven't quite hit the quality I wanted them to. Though I went into this experience fully expecting the Disney era of Star Wars to miss the mark of magic the originals had for a variety of reasons. All I wanted was for them to be better than the prequels. And I still hold that they do. But my impression, from the jump is that there is this trend towards wanting to be ahead of the curve on the dissent train. The negative backlash towards the prequels didn't come immediately. At least not as a majority opinion. It feels like some, while actually being disappointed in all the way up to hating the new films, are looking for reasons to argue that the new films fail even to hit the mark of being better than the prequel trilogy. And I can accept that. What aggravates me is that any time someone bumps this thread saying they enjoyed one of the new films there is a frantic rush by the same group of people who come in to rabidly attack the films and try to convince people they should hate them.

It just gives me the impression that there's this sense that if these people go on this crusade of trying to inform the masses of the error in their tastes, that will somehow bring back a Golden Age of Hollywood devoid of its present creative bankruptcy. Do I want high quality Star Wars stories? Absolutely. Do I think the new Star Wars movies have created some compelling new narrative? No not exactly. Do I see that there are structural flaws across all 3 new films? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy them as fun sci-fi romps. Even TLJ which as I've continued rewatching aggravates me more and more with its flaws to an extent that TFA never did, every time it's still an entertaining ride.

Contrast that to my last experience with the prequels trying to watch all three prior to Episode 7 it felt like a chore to watch the films. They disappoint me on a much graver level than these new films. And I get it. This is the experience some are having with these new films. I don't dare try to force anyone to try to enjoy what they simply don't like. But being told I have to see things the way they do just doesn't fly with me. I feel to this day TFA's flaws were overblown despite being there, Rogue 1 saw some apologism from the same people who showed vitriol towards TFA-though I felt Rogue One's structure and development was bungled, and TLJ had a lot of promise but has issues throughout. I am aware of all of these things but I can find entertainment in any of the three. If that's my experience, no one has the right to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying myself in whatever capacity I may be enjoying them.

 

[HanSolo]

I'll give the prequels this; Lucas knew the direction he wanted to go in, and he did. The execution of it all was basically a war crime, however, I can see what he was trying to do. Had he had more outspoken talent, and had he dropped his dictoral rule over the movies, I think they would have turned out pretty good.

This new set of sequels, or w/e, have no direction. You see that in the fact that they keep rehashing old plots from the originals. And you see it in the characters as well, none of them outside of Rey really have motivation or desire or goal to strive towards, well up until TLJ at least. Said motivation/goal (Luke) is now dead.

The remaining motivation is stopping the First Order. I'll grant you that's not the most compelling "new" narrative but it's something.

 

[Shareefruck]

When the tone of the dissent is such that it comes off more like witchhunting supposed inferior purveyors of art through cinema? Absolutely. I don't agree with people who like the prequels but I can at least understand why some might find value in them. They were ambitious, action packed, the story on a more surface level is a compelling one (even if executed poorly). Like there's stuff to like there. I wouldn't judge someone for liking them.

And again, at least people here haven't been dropping any direct personal insults at people who enjoyed the new films so that's a plus. At least we're above the level of youtube commenters and Reddit. But there still seems to be an inherent implication that if you don't see all that's wrong and hate these films then you are not a good evaluator of films.

I recognize the new Star Wars films have flaws. I'd even say they haven't quite hit the quality I wanted them to. Though I went into this experience fully expecting the Disney era of Star Wars to miss the mark of magic the originals had for a variety of reasons. All I wanted was for them to be better than the prequels. And I still hold that they do. But my impression, from the jump is that there is this trend towards wanting to be ahead of the curve on the dissent train. The negative backlash towards the prequels didn't come immediately. At least not as a majority opinion. It feels like some, while actually being disappointed in all the way up to hating the new films, are looking for reasons to argue that the new films fail even to hit the mark of being better than the prequel trilogy. And I can accept that. What aggravates me is that any time someone bumps this thread saying they enjoyed one of the new films there is a frantic rush by the same group of people who come in to rabidly attack the films and try to convince people they should hate them.

It just gives me the impression that there's this sense that if these people go on this crusade of trying to inform the masses of the error in their tastes, that will somehow bring back a Golden Age of Hollywood devoid of its present creative bankruptcy. Do I want high quality Star Wars stories? Absolutely. Do I think the new Star Wars movies have created some compelling new narrative? No not exactly. Do I see that there are structural flaws across all 3 new films? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy them as fun sci-fi romps. Even TLJ which as I've continued rewatching aggravates me more and more with its flaws to an extent that TFA never did, every time it's still an entertaining ride.

Contrast that to my last experience with the prequels trying to watch all three prior to Episode 7 it felt like a chore to watch the films. They disappoint me on a much graver level than these new films. And I get it. This is the experience some are having with these new films. I don't dare try to force anyone to try to enjoy what they simply don't like. But being told I have to see things the way they do just doesn't fly with me. I feel to this day TFA's flaws were overblown despite being there, Rogue 1 saw some apologism from the same people who showed vitriol towards TFA-though I felt Rogue One's structure and development was bungled, and TLJ had a lot of promise but has issues throughout. I am aware of all of these things but I can find entertainment in any of the three. If that's my experience, no one has the right to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying myself in whatever capacity I may be enjoying them.

Fair enough

When the tone of the dissent is such that it comes off more like witchhunting supposed inferior purveyors of art through cinema? Absolutely. I don't agree with people who like the prequels but I can at least understand why some might find value in them. They were ambitious, action packed, the story on a more surface level is a compelling one (even if executed poorly). Like there's stuff to like there. I wouldn't judge someone for liking them.

And again, at least people here haven't been dropping any direct personal insults at people who enjoyed the new films so that's a plus. At least we're above the level of youtube commenters and Reddit. But there still seems to be an inherent implication that if you don't see all that's wrong and hate these films then you are not a good evaluator of films.

I recognize the new Star Wars films have flaws. I'd even say they haven't quite hit the quality I wanted them to. Though I went into this experience fully expecting the Disney era of Star Wars to miss the mark of magic the originals had for a variety of reasons. All I wanted was for them to be better than the prequels. And I still hold that they do. But my impression, from the jump is that there is this trend towards wanting to be ahead of the curve on the dissent train. The negative backlash towards the prequels didn't come immediately. At least not as a majority opinion. It feels like some, while actually being disappointed in all the way up to hating the new films, are looking for reasons to argue that the new films fail even to hit the mark of being better than the prequel trilogy. And I can accept that. What aggravates me is that any time someone bumps this thread saying they enjoyed one of the new films there is a frantic rush by the same group of people who come in to rabidly attack the films and try to convince people they should hate them.

It just gives me the impression that there's this sense that if these people go on this crusade of trying to inform the masses of the error in their tastes, that will somehow bring back a Golden Age of Hollywood devoid of its present creative bankruptcy. Do I want high quality Star Wars stories? Absolutely. Do I think the new Star Wars movies have created some compelling new narrative? No not exactly. Do I see that there are structural flaws across all 3 new films? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy them as fun sci-fi romps. Even TLJ which as I've continued rewatching aggravates me more and more with its flaws to an extent that TFA never did, every time it's still an entertaining ride.

Contrast that to my last experience with the prequels trying to watch all three prior to Episode 7 it felt like a chore to watch the films. They disappoint me on a much graver level than these new films. And I get it. This is the experience some are having with these new films. I don't dare try to force anyone to try to enjoy what they simply don't like. But being told I have to see things the way they do just doesn't fly with me. I feel to this day TFA's flaws were overblown despite being there, Rogue 1 saw some apologism from the same people who showed vitriol towards TFA-though I felt Rogue One's structure and development was bungled, and TLJ had a lot of promise but has issues throughout. I am aware of all of these things but I can find entertainment in any of the three. If that's my experience, no one has the right to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying myself in whatever capacity I may be enjoying them.

Fair enough, I wasn't accusing or anything, I just wanted to check if you were consistent about that, or if you could perhaps relate to the compulsion more if it came to something you actually hated and didn't find redeeming qualities in.

I relate to the compulsion to a degree, and I think that it's generally understandable/meaningful/satisfying to push back and say your bit whenever a disagreeable opinion is prevalent, but I agree that it can be taken to an extreme that is overly forceful/intrusive and overstep your boundaries.

I don't see anything wrong with something like.... instinctively being triggered to say that you think it's awful every time you hear someone say that they think it's great, though, as long as it's respectful.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

The remaining motivation is stopping the First Order. I'll grant you that's not the most compelling "new" narrative but it's something.

They could have traded the name 'First Order' with 'Sith' and absolutely nothing would have changed in the movie.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I'll give the prequels this; Lucas knew the direction he wanted to go in, and he did. The execution of it all was basically a war crime, however, I can see what he was trying to do. Had he had more outspoken talent, and had he dropped his dictoral rule over the movies, I think they would have turned out pretty good.

I'd imagine someone would have pointed out that having the tragic hero you're crafting to affect sympathy from the audience murder children is probably not the best idea.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I finally saw the movie.

My biggest gripe with the movie (the first two movies actually but it was even more accentuated in this one) is that the villains are dumb, ineffectual, unappealing, uninteresting, too easily defeated and are turned into a joke all the time. It makes me care less what happens because they are not menacing. It just makes me wonder what is the next stupid thing they will do.

The comedy act between Poe and Hux at the start killed the tension and just made Hux look and sound completely dumb. The "can you hear me?" bit was a cringe-fest. Felt like he escaped out of the spaceball movie. He's more of a secondary villain so it's not that big of a deal but still it is another example of what I mean.

Phasma and Snoke are jokes basically. Almost zero backstory and died far too easily and stupidly with zero payoff or satisfaction behind it. Especially Snoke who was gloating that he can see everyting in Kylo Ren's mind... what a joke... At least they looked great aesthetically speaking. They're on the Darth Maul scale of villains (if you haven't watched the animated SW series where Darth Maul's character gets fleshed out a lot ). BTW this is who should have been doing the movies, the guy (Dave Filoni I think) who wrote the stories for the animated show.

But Kylo Ren is the worst for me. I know people like him but he's a tall lanky awkward long haired child with a dumb looking face prone to ridiculous tantrums. He gets played by every single character since the first time he's appeared on screen. He got beaten by Rey who had never wielded a light sabre before. Even Snoke piled on at the start of the movie and exposed how much of a joke he is. Continuously makes stupid and bad decisions like send his entire fleet after the falcon, stops the advance of his troops to fight Luke, getting played yet another time. Plus he looks stupid. He's not aesthetically pleasing to the eye. He looks tall, awkward and weak. He doesn't look manly or menacing. He just looks unhinged, deranged, stupid and weak. I just feel like he was terribly miscast. I don't have a problem with the actor's job, I just feel like he's not my idea of a menacing villain. The emperor in the original movies was a great villain. Darth Vader was menacing and threatening. He had a quiet power to him and was never ever turned into a joke at any point in the series. One character attempted to turn him into a joke and the force choke promptly reminded everyone why he is a badass MFer. He kills a beloved character early on with brute force mano a mano. Kylo ren just takes advantage of his father's trust. Makes him look deranged and weak. Then it is never explained how he could have turned in such a way that he would kill his father. Patricide is the act of a deranged person.. or the act of someone pushed to the very edge by an even more deranged father. We need to know how such an unnatural thing as patricide came to be. I was willing to withhold judgement after the first movie until I knew the back story but it seems pretty obvious that there won't be a satisfying one. It's just what it is. Snoke "turned" him, and... Ben Solo just became Kylo Ren just like that.... that easily. To me he's the worst villain I've ever seen. He's not threatening, he's dumb, unappealing. His arc is stupid and he doesn't look the part. Snoke was right when he asked him to remove that ridiculous helm. But it at least hid his dumb long face with his gigantic nose...

Also I didn't like the use of humor in this one. It felt out of place, not sure why. Maybe because the tone of the movie was pretty dark.

I don't like what Disney is doing with this IP.

EDIT:

Another thing that bothered is why does Rey feel like turning Kylo Ren would completely switch the odds in the rebels favor ? With almost no training she almost killed him. Why would she have any respect for his power. It felt wrong.

EDIT#2:

Perhaps another thing that bothers me is the lack of masculine figures in the movie. The male heroes are all dumb. Poe and Finn outright organized a mutiny and were wrong, they went on a wild goose chase and nearly got everyone killed. Then Finn tried to pull off a noble act and sacrifice himself but Rose heroically came out of nowhere to stop him and make him look dumb as hell instead of noble in sacrifice. They turned the legend Luke into a weak old man who cut himself off from the force, wouldn't train Rey, just a hermit... he redeemed himself at the end but.... then just died.

Kylo Ren is a tall effeminate emo child who throws temper tentrums and destroys equipment every 2 scenes he's in.

The most masculine figure in the movie is Phasma...

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I'm pretty sure at least a couple of you in here just have it out for Disney. I enjoyed the movie quite a bit. It wasn't as good as I expected but it was still enjoyable.

Pros-
I love the character of Kylo Ren. It's extremely refreshing to have a villain that isn't just evil for the sake of being evil. I seem to recall people wanting a character like that, but now he's just "a spoiled brat". Choose what you want for god's sake.

He's pretty much exactly that evil for the sake of being evil.

He was born from 2 heroes Leia+Han. Taught by a legend in Luke... but he just turns bad for reasons. Then kills his father.. for reasons...

He's pretty much evil for the sake of being evil. There is no backstory to really explain it aside from Luke going batshit crazy and attempting to murder him in his sleep going completely against what you would think of Luke. It's all nonsense really.

I just hate all these "Oh it stinks" or "Oh it's as good as Empire" posts. The truth is somewhere in between.

Did it entertain? Yes
Was it a good one-time popcorn flick experience? Yes
Was it coherent? Not totally
Will it stand the test of time? I don't think so. I give it a 6/10.

I agree with this. But the problem is that it is a star wars movies. I really hoped it would be better than that. If it was just generic space opera #102, I'd have enjoyed my 2h30 and just left that 6/10 behind never to think of it again. Does that feel satisfactory for something you had high hopes for ?

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I'd imagine someone would have pointed out that having the tragic hero you're crafting to affect sympathy from the audience murder children is probably not the best idea.

It could have worked just fine. Anakin was the tragic hero, who was turned to a dark evil using the lure of the welfare of his wife. The Clone Wars (Both renditions) do a very good job of building Anakin up as a likeable and endearing hero who you want to win, who you want to see be together with Padme.

 

[Osprey]

Perhaps another thing that bothers me is the lack of masculine figures in the movie. The male heroes are all dumb. Poe and Finn outright organized a mutiny and were wrong, they went on a wild goose chase and nearly got everyone killed. Then Finn tried to pull off a noble act and sacrifice himself but Rose heroically came out of nowhere to stop him and make him look dumb as hell instead of noble in sacrifice. They turned the legend Luke into a weak old man who cut himself off from the force, wouldn't train Rey, just a hermit... he redeemed himself at the end but.... then just died.

Kylo Ren is a tall effeminate emo child who throws temper tentrums and destroys equipment every 2 scenes he's in.

The most masculine figure in the movie is Phasma...

Nowadays, it's sexist for men to appear masculine or women effeminate. Instead, men must be portrayed as weak and women as strong. It shouldn't be the other way around, either, but the reverse of something that's wrong isn't necessarily right. Some of these big studios, like Disney, are seemingly trying so hard to establish strong role models for young females that they're stripping them from young males who need them, too.

It'll be interesting to see what Disney does with the upcoming Solo film. They have an opportunity for a strong male character there, but I'm afraid that Solo will be portrayed more as a jokester who doesn't take dangerous situations seriously and who needs Emilia Clarke's character to keep him in line and tell him what to do.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Isn't the whole reason Disney is making more Star Wars movies at all to make money? But only certain aspects of the wanting to make money bother you somehow. They only included lots of characters to make money, BB-8 to sell toys, ect...

You used evidence from a SW movie(s) to say males should be superior to females. Now there is new evidence that this idea isn't necessarily true. What makes evidence from one movie more important than another?

The creators just did show more prominent women in the universe. That is the exact thing you are upset about.

THE OLD MOVIES WERE TARGETED AS POPCORN FLICKS FOR TEENAGERS.

The problem is those teenagers got older, but their fanatical love of the SW universe didn't. It just become more cynical and obsessive.

I'm 37 and I saw guardians of the galaxy #1/2 when they came out and I thought they were great movies, very enjoyable space opera experiences. It spoke to the little kid in me in much the same way as those original star wars movies.

Guardians of the galaxy is the level that star wars should have aspired to. The characters in GotG are lovable. The villains weren't pathetic, they were threatening. The humor didn't feel out of place. The story was cohesive and not convoluted. The world felt gigantic and full of wonders, not empty like the one in these new SW movies. The characters had motivations which made sense.

There's clearly something missing in these new movies, it's not a matter of people having changed. That's just an easy narrative that sounds right... but ultimately isn't really.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm 37 and I saw guardians of the galaxy #1/2 when they came out and I thought they were great movies, very enjoyable space opera experiences. It spoke to the little kid in me in much the same way as those original star wars movies.

Guardians of the galaxy is the level that star wars should have aspired to. The characters in GotG are lovable. The villains weren't pathetic, they were threatening. The humor didn't feel out of place. The story was cohesive and not convoluted. The world felt gigantic and full of wonders, not empty like the one in these new SW movies. The characters had motivations which made sense.

There's clearly something missing in these new movies, it's not a matter of people having changed. That's just an easy narrative that sounds right... but ultimately isn't really.

... OK? Not sure what you points is or what about my 4 month old post made you quote me. I have no real opinion on the latest SW movies, and haven't seen the most recent one yet. I was just addressing people's obvious terrible opinions on them.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Nowadays, it's sexist for men to appear masculine or women effeminate. Instead, men must be portrayed as weak and women as strong. It shouldn't be the other way around, either, but the reverse of something that's wrong isn't necessarily right. Some of these big studios, like Disney, are seemingly trying so hard to establish strong role models for young females that they're stripping them from young males who need them, too.

It'll be interesting to see what Disney does with the upcoming Solo film. They have an opportunity for a strong male character there, but I'm afraid that Solo will be portrayed more as a jokester who doesn't take dangerous situations seriously and who needs Emilia Clarke's character to keep him in line and tell him what to do.

Neither of the two extremes should occur. In action movies like SW, both sexes can look equally strong when you have a strong and believable enemy or enemies.

The two best examples of this are Aliens and Terminator 1 & 2. All three feature incredibly strong male and female leads that have to do with battle with strong and believable enemies.

Neither of the sexes roles in any of the three are diminished or looked down upon.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Neither of the two extremes should occur. In action movies like SW, both sexes can look equally strong when you have a strong and believable enemy or enemies.

The two best examples of this are Aliens and Terminator 1 & 2. All three feature incredibly strong male and female leads that have to do with battle with strong and believable enemies.

Neither of the sexes roles in any of the three are diminished or looked down upon.

And no men complained about women being the heroic figures of those movies because it wasn't hamfisted into the story just for the sake of women being the heroes of these stories. It naturally occurred like that and that's great ! And I wish there were more movies like that with strong female characters being the lead. But it can't be done artificially. Like the worst example of this is the female ghosbuster movie. Rebooting a movie like that and replacing the entire cast with women for the sake of it is dumb.

Going back to TLJ, an example of hamfisting female characters in for no reason... the purple haired commander plot.... to introduce that incredibly strong woman who sacrificed herself to save everyone.... they had to kill Akbar, threw Leia in space, specifically to put that character in charge so she could belittle Poe and not tell him the plan which enabled the entire casino storyline with the addition of the entirely stupid and pointless Rose character. You could have cut that ENTIRE act. Leia doesn't get blown off in space, then Poe doesn't question Leia's tactics, or Leia tells Poe what's happening.... no casino, no pointless code breaker plot, no Phasma, no Rose, no purple haired commander... But then Finn and Poe wouldn't have had anything to do I guess. The more I think about it the more I hate this movie.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I understand why people are put off and it is their right to be. However, what the film actually says, and very explicitly I might add, is perfectly coherent with the way Luke Skywalker has been built 40 years ago. The Skywalkers ALL are very impulsive and that point is made times and times again in all 8 movies. Luke taking an impulsive decision than backing down because it isn't something he would really do is a very Luke thing and very coherent with the point the movie is trying to get across.

Luke Skywalker thinking of murdering his nephew in his sleep without confronting him face to face is not a luke thing at all. Luke let the dark side influence him when he almost killed Vader, but that was an impulsive emotional moment while being manipulated by Vader and the Emperor when he was still young.

Fast forward many years, he's an accomplished Jedi Master who should have gotten wiser. I could see him thinking for a second he needs to put an end to the threat of Kylo Ren if he thought he was too far gone to protect the other students and the rest of the galaxy.. but not while standing over him in his sleep like some murderer. THAT is not Luke Skywalker. It's asinine to pretend it is.

BTW sorry for digging up these old posts.. but I just saw the movie and I'm reading the entire thread... don't have to engage if you're done with this debate. It's cathartic for me.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Is it possible that Star Wars is just a mediocre franchise? I think so

No because there is a lot of great material in this franchise.

A lot of the expanded universe books were good, had great characters and stories which would have been way better than this garbage we're getting.

The animated cartoon show is a lot better than these recent movies.

The force awakens was rather bland, unoriginal and a rehash of what came before it... but it reintroduced star wars and new characters in a way that felt like a star wars movie. A good follow up would have elevated the first movie a little. Instead, this movie burned everything to the ground and instead of elevating it brought it down to its level. A bit like those interactive storytelling activities people engage in where one person is given a subject (star wars) and improvise on it for 30 sec, then someone else takes over and improvise for 30 sec, etc. No one is coordinating the story and it can go in wild and unpredictable directions.. it's almost 100% of the time a complete unappealing and funny mess. This is what this feels like. Except it's not funny, it's just sad.

No, the problem with the star wars franchise is not that it's a bad IP. The problem with it is that it has Kathleen Kennedy instead of a Kevin Feige. Kathleen Kennedy is more worried about secondary objectives like diversifying the cast (LGBTABCDEF characters next woohooo so exciting) instead of doing her job and coordinating an arc throughout the trilogy. She's not someone who understands and is a fan of the source material like Kevin Feige is for Marvel. There's no direction to any of it.

 

[Osprey]

Neither of the two extremes should occur. In action movies like SW, both sexes can look equally strong when you have a strong and believable enemy or enemies.

The two best examples of this are Aliens and Terminator 1 & 2. All three feature incredibly strong male and female leads that have to do with battle with strong and believable enemies.

Neither of the sexes roles in any of the three are diminished or looked down upon.

That's exactly what I was getting at. It's possible to have strong female characters without it coming at the expense of the male characters and vice versa. There should be, IMO, a mix of strong male and female characters and, for contrast, weak male and female characters. For example, Hudson being a whiny coward in Aliens makes Hicks look all the stronger and braver of a character.

In TLJ, there's a stark difference between how most of the men are portrayed and how all of the women are portrayed. Literally every female character, from Rey to Leia to Holdo to Rose, is portrayed as a strong, heroic female and nearly every male character is portrayed as cowardly, moody, foolish or having made a major mistake. I'm not sure that any of the female characters make a decision that backfires or that any of the male characters make a decision that doesn't. It's good to have strong female characters making correct decisions, but, when they're all strong and always make the correct decisions, like in TLJ, it feels forced and unnatural.

Luke Skywalker thinking of murdering his nephew in his sleep without confronting him face to face is not a luke thing at all. Luke let the dark side influence him when he almost killed Vader, but that was an impulsive emotional moment while being manipulated by Vader and the Emperor when he was still young.

Fast forward many years, he's an accomplished Jedi Master who should have gotten wiser. I could see him thinking for a second he needs to put an end to the threat of Kylo Ren if he thought he was too far gone to protect the other students and the rest of the galaxy.. but not while standing over him in his sleep like some murderer. THAT is not Luke Skywalker. It's asinine to pretend it is.

George Lucas spent two trilogies establishing that the Jedi are honorable and trusting to the point of it occasionally being a weakness by seeing the good in people and trying to turn them. TLJ sort of turned that upside down by having Luke see the bad in Kylo and try to dishonorably murder him in his sleep (instead of trying to save him from the dark side). It's no wonder that Mark Hamill wasn't happy.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

If I was Mark Hamil, I would be pissed, to which I believe he truly is.

 

[johnjm22]

I finally saw the movie.

My biggest gripe with the movie (the first two movies actually but it was even more accentuated in this one) is that the villains are dumb, ineffectual, unappealing, uninteresting, too easily defeated and are turned into a joke all the time. It makes me care less what happens because they are not menacing. It just makes me wonder what is the next stupid thing they will do.

The comedy act between Poe and Hux at the start killed the tension and just made Hux look and sound completely dumb. The "can you hear me?" bit was a cringe-fest. Felt like he escaped out of the spaceball movie. He's more of a secondary villain so it's not that big of a deal but still it is another example of what I mean.

Phasma and Snoke are jokes basically. Almost zero backstory and died far too easily and stupidly with zero payoff or satisfaction behind it. Especially Snoke who was gloating that he can see everyting in Kylo Ren's mind... what a joke... At least they looked great aesthetically speaking. They're on the Darth Maul scale of villains (if you haven't watched the animated SW series where Darth Maul's character gets fleshed out a lot ). BTW this is who should have been doing the movies, the guy (Dave Filoni I think) who wrote the stories for the animated show.

But Kylo Ren is the worst for me. I know people like him but he's a tall lanky awkward long haired child with a dumb looking face prone to ridiculous tantrums. He gets played by every single character since the first time he's appeared on screen. He got beaten by Rey who had never wielded a light sabre before. Even Snoke piled on at the start of the movie and exposed how much of a joke he is. Continuously makes stupid and bad decisions like send his entire fleet after the falcon, stops the advance of his troops to fight Luke, getting played yet another time. Plus he looks stupid. He's not aesthetically pleasing to the eye. He looks tall, awkward and weak. He doesn't look manly or menacing. He just looks unhinged, deranged, stupid and weak. I just feel like he was terribly miscast. I don't have a problem with the actor's job, I just feel like he's not my idea of a menacing villain. The emperor in the original movies was a great villain. Darth Vader was menacing and threatening. He had a quiet power to him and was never ever turned into a joke at any point in the series. One character attempted to turn him into a joke and the force choke promptly reminded everyone why he is a badass MFer. He kills a beloved character early on with brute force mano a mano. Kylo ren just takes advantage of his father's trust. Makes him look deranged and weak. Then it is never explained how he could have turned in such a way that he would kill his father. Patricide is the act of a deranged person.. or the act of someone pushed to the very edge by an even more deranged father. We need to know how such an unnatural thing as patricide came to be. I was willing to withhold judgement after the first movie until I knew the back story but it seems pretty obvious that there won't be a satisfying one. It's just what it is. Snoke "turned" him, and... Ben Solo just became Kylo Ren just like that.... that easily. To me he's the worst villain I've ever seen. He's not threatening, he's dumb, unappealing. His arc is stupid and he doesn't look the part. Snoke was right when he asked him to remove that ridiculous helm. But it at least hid his dumb long face with his gigantic nose...

Also I didn't like the use of humor in this one. It felt out of place, not sure why. Maybe because the tone of the movie was pretty dark.

I don't like what Disney is doing with this IP.

EDIT:

Another thing that bothered is why does Rey feel like turning Kylo Ren would completely switch the odds in the rebels favor ? With almost no training she almost killed him. Why would she have any respect for his power. It felt wrong.

EDIT#2:

Perhaps another thing that bothers me is the lack of masculine figures in the movie. The male heroes are all dumb. Poe and Finn outright organized a mutiny and were wrong, they went on a wild goose chase and nearly got everyone killed. Then Finn tried to pull off a noble act and sacrifice himself but Rose heroically came out of nowhere to stop him and make him look dumb as hell instead of noble in sacrifice. They turned the legend Luke into a weak old man who cut himself off from the force, wouldn't train Rey, just a hermit... he redeemed himself at the end but.... then just died.

Kylo Ren is a tall effeminate emo child who throws temper tentrums and destroys equipment every 2 scenes he's in.

The most masculine figure in the movie is Phasma...

I wish Kylo would have never taken the mask off. The opening scene of TFA is fun. Kylo appears. His look and deep voice are cool and evil.

Some characters are better the more you know about them, some are better the less you know about their backstory. Kylo is the latter. Darth Maul was a better villain.

I also hate the fact that Kylo's character is "meta." He's basically a Darth Vader fanboy.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I'm not sure that any of the female characters make a decision that backfires

Holdo doesn't correct Poe when his misunderstanding of the plan leads him to assume their imminent and avoidable deaths.

That entire arc is her fault.

I would say Rey trusting Ren for, like, no reason at all, but 1) that's just bad writing/Johnson trying to make chicken salad out of Abrams' **** and 2) she isn't punished in any way for what is a colossal blunder.

that any of the male characters make a decision that doesn't

Poe at the end. "Let's think this through!".

This movie is strange...what is literally happening on screen is incredibly incongruent with some of the messages of the film, like Poe basically getting 90% of the Rebellion killed, but then his change at the end is portrayed as a heroic turn of leadership....or Holdo's "sacrifice", when it's kinda her fault and she was planning on going down with the ship anyway.