Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS)

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Nowadays, it's sexist for men to appear masculine or women effeminate. Instead, men must be portrayed as weak and women as strong. It shouldn't be the other way around, either, but the reverse of something that's wrong isn't necessarily right. Some of these big studios, like Disney, are seemingly trying so hard to establish strong role models for young females that they're stripping them from young males who need them, too.

It'll be interesting to see what Disney does with the upcoming Solo film. They have an opportunity for a strong male character there, but I'm afraid that Solo will be portrayed more as a jokester who doesn't take dangerous situations seriously and who needs Emilia Clarke's character to keep him in line and tell him what to do.

Disney will reveal that Han is transgender

 

[Osprey]

Holdo doesn't correct Poe when his misunderstanding of the plan leads him to assume their imminent and avoidable deaths.

That entire arc is her fault.

I would say Rey trusting Ren for, like, no reason at all, but 1) that's just bad writing/Johnson trying to make chicken salad out of Abrams' **** and 2) she isn't punished in any way for what is a colossal blunder.

Poe at the end. "Let's think this through!".

That may be true, but does it actually feel like the filmmakers are pushing the notion that Holdo and Rey have made mistakes? We can dissect the plot after the fact and decide that they did, but are they portrayed as flawed characters? In other words, if you just went up to average moviegoers walking out of the theater and asked them which characters made selfless decisions and which made selfish decisions, which category would they likely put Holdo and Rey under and which would they probably put Poe and Finn under? I see that as more of the issue.

This movie is strange...what is literally happening on screen is incredibly incongruent with some of the messages of the film, like Poe basically getting 90% of the Rebellion killed, but then his change at the end is portrayed as a heroic turn of leadership....or Holdo's "sacrifice", when it's kinda her fault and she was planning on going down with the ship anyway.

I do agree with this. That's certainly an issue, to the point that I'm not exactly sure what the messages of the film even are. It's a problem with TFA, to a lesser extent, as well. Characters are established one way throughout the film and, then, near the end, they turn and do something out of character to "redeem" all of their behavior up to that point. Poe gets much of the Resistance killed, isn't even bothered by it and then eventually has a heroic turn of leadership, as you said. Holdo is stubborn and unlikable for nearly the entire film until she becomes a hero making the ultimate sacrifice. Finn is a coward who runs from fights in both films until he suddenly gets the bravery to engage some of the stronger villains in hand-to-hand combat. Character development and redemptive arcs are important, but, rather than being gradual, they feel on/off, as though the writers decided to flip the switch on the character to suit the scene.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Character development and redemptive arcs are important, but, rather than being gradual, they feel on/off, as though the writers decided to flip the switch on the character to suit the scene.

I think those who view the film as purely entertainment are absolutely correct in doing so: this is not a movie where critical thinking of any kind leads to a superior experience, it's all downhill.

Alas, one cannot control how everyone wants to view a film, and I do think the film's inconsistent tone (in the way it mixes intense action with obnoxious humor and childlike political statements) does not help.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That may be true, but does it actually feel like the filmmakers are pushing the notion that Holdo and Rey have made mistakes? We can dissect the plot after the fact and decide that they did, but are they portrayed as flawed characters? In other words, if you just went up to average moviegoers walking out of the theater and asked them which characters made selfless decisions and which made selfish decisions, which category would they likely put Holdo and Rey under and which would they probably put Poe and Finn under? I see that as more of the issue.

Huh?

I am not going to get into the whole Holdo thing (because I have already argued it with the same people who are still posting in this thread), but how do you miss the fact that Rey failed spectacularly in her entire end goal? She tries to get Luke to train her and doesn't get any kind of training other than a couple lessons because of his disdain for the "order". She then leaves to face Kylo Ren and turn him away from the dark side like Luke did with Darth Vader and fails spectacularly at doing so, and even helps lead to Ren taking complete control of the First Order.

She isn't flawed in a moral sense, but she isn't being made to be some kind of perfect paragon that can do no wrong.

I'm not even going to touch the "selfish" angle because I have to think we are watching two different movies when it comes to that.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The use of positive gay characters by Hollywood was a major contributor to the speed at which public opinion changed on the issue of gay rights (obviously there were several other factors that we aren’t discussing here).

I have no problem with Hollywood using their bully pulpit to promote tolerance and acceptance.

If that comes at the expense of white men, well that’s just too damn ****ing bad.

The problem is not that it comes at the expense of white men, the problem is that it comes at the expense of the stories being told. I personally don't give a shit about movies trying to promote acceptance of ANYTHING. Even things I am, things I value or things I like. I just want to sit down for a good original story. Apparently movies can't just be that anymore.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

That may be true, but does it actually feel like the filmmakers are pushing the notion that Holdo and Rey have made mistakes?

The film is making the point that Poe is reckless and acting on entirely baseless assumptions. He has no reason to distrust Holdo, to presume her incompetence or that she has no plan.

A story could make that clear to the audience- but TLJ decides to affect the audience on Poe's side, so really Poe Dameron's arc is the audience's arc. How do you get the audience on a character's side that is also shown to be rushing ahead without thinking? Have Poe suffer a narcissistic injury.

This is why Holdo is your mom (60+ Caucasian woman with an obvious dye job) and why she is so over-the-top rude and belittling to Poe in their first scene.

(This is where part of the rage of the film is coming from btw).

Rey is odd because the film acts like it's a failure, but doesn't explain why she made that mistake, and doesn't bother to punish her or anyone in any way.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Huh?

I am not going to get into the whole Holdo thing (because I have already argued it with the same people who are still posting in this thread), but how do you miss the fact that Rey failed spectacularly in her entire end goal? She tries to get Luke to train her and doesn't get any kind of training other than a couple lessons because of his disdain for the "order". She then leaves to face Kylo Ren and turn him away from the dark side like Luke did with Darth Vader and fails spectacularly at doing so, and even helps lead to Ren taking complete control of the First Order.

She isn't flawed in a moral sense, but she isn't being made to be some kind of perfect paragon that can do no wrong.

I'm not even going to touch the "selfish" angle because I have to think we are watching two different movies when it comes to that.

Rey got stronger than ever and the First Order weaker than ever, if those are spectacular failings that is incredible. Is she Forrest Gump?

 

[Pilky01]

I mean, the whole ship freely and actively participated in a mutiny.

However genius Holdo's plan might have been the film makes it abundantly clear, if not thematically necessary that nobody on that ship trusts her (apart from comatose Leia).

Still hard to believe they made "obey your superiors, no matter what" a central theme of a Star Wars movie.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Huh?

I am not going to get into the whole Holdo thing (because I have already argued it with the same people who are still posting in this thread), but how do you miss the fact that Rey failed spectacularly in her entire end goal? She tries to get Luke to train her and doesn't get any kind of training other than a couple lessons because of his disdain for the "order". She then leaves to face Kylo Ren and turn him away from the dark side like Luke did with Darth Vader and fails spectacularly at doing so, and even helps lead to Ren taking complete control of the First Order.

She isn't flawed in a moral sense, but she isn't being made to be some kind of perfect paragon that can do no wrong.

I'm not even going to touch the "selfish" angle because I have to think we are watching two different movies when it comes to that.

Her objective of turning Kylo Ren was not accomplished. But the failing is entirely upon Kylo Ren who decided to stay evil. Rey comes out of it smelling like a rose since she got Kylo Ren to side with her long enough to kill the ultimate bad ass omnipotent force that was driving the first order - Snoke. Even when she fails, it's a huge success. It almost could not have turned out better. Now the first order is led by a child like individual prone to temper tentrums and completely moronic decisions. I cannot imagine this individual leading anything at all, even through fear or tyranny. He doesn't project strength, intelligence or any quality that any leader possess whether these leaders are good or evil. So even in her failures, Rey succeeds... it's as if Luke had went to Bespin, and both Vader and the Emperor were there.. and Luke had gotten Vader to kill the emperor at that moment while learning he's Vader's son. Stupid uh?

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

Disney will reveal that Han is transgender

Powerful.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Her objective of turning Kylo Ren was not accomplished. But the failing is entirely upon Kylo Ren who decided to stay evil. Rey comes out of it smelling like a rose since she got Kylo Ren to side with her long enough to kill the ultimate bad ass omnipotent force that was driving the first order - Snoke. Even when she fails, it's a huge success. It almost could not have turned out better. Now the first order is led by a child like individual prone to temper tentrums and completely moronic decisions. I cannot imagine this individual leading anything at all, even through fear or tyranny. He doesn't project strength, intelligence or any quality that any leader possess whether these leaders are good or evil. So even in her failures, Rey succeeds... it's as if Luke had went to Bespin, and both Vader and the Emperor were there.. and Luke had gotten Vader to kill the emperor at that moment while learning he's Vader's son. Stupid uh?

Rey got Kylo Ren to do that? By what, being there?

The film established there was a dysfunctional relationship between Kylo and Snoke, but somehow Rey being there and getting her ass kicked means she was the major factor?

And even despite his failings it isn't like they demonstrated he was incompetent in command. It is more likely the FO will be less prone to hubris because the leader is so hell bent on destroying the entire resistance that they won't get the chance to do the same thing.

At the end of the day both sides are in a similar place as they used to be, minus some major leaders on both sides. Rey learned Kylo is beyond saving and truly a monster and Kylo is in control of an army and willing to do whatever it takes to take control of everything and start anew. There is no positive vibe to the ending of the film and we shouldn't expect the resistance to be in a great situation, especially considering it has been reduced to a single ship that is a piece of garbage.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Rey got stronger than ever and the First Order weaker than ever, if those are spectacular failings that is incredible. Is she Forrest Gump?

You just chose to ignore the thing I specifically said she failed spectacularly at, and instead focused on the FO being weaker (not really demonstrated, especially relative to the resistance) and her being stronger (which wasn't really demonstrated either). Okay.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Are they the rebels or the resistance? The writers seemingly forgot half way through the movie that they weren't supposed to reference the blatant plagiarism.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Rey got Kylo Ren to do that? By what, being there?

By dangling herself as an alternative for Kylo Ren. He sees Rey, sees Snoke, then Snoke puts him in a situation where he has to decide and he picks Rey. If Rey hadn't been there, Ren wouldn't have lightsabered Snoke.

Did not think I'd have to explain that....

The film established there was a dysfunctional relationship between Kylo and Snoke, but somehow Rey being there and getting her ass kicked means she was the major factor?

Um yeah ?

Moments before that Snoke literally destroyed Kylo's spirit by belittling him to the point of making him destroy his helm. He's been with Snoke for who knows how long. Never killed him.

At worse, Rey acted as a distraction to keep Snoke focused on something else while Ren was sneakily turning the lightsaber.

And even despite his failings it isn't like they demonstrated he was incompetent in command. It is more likely the FO will be less prone to hubris because the leader is so hell bent on destroying the entire resistance that they won't get the chance to do the same thing.

What ? He sends the entire fleet after the falcon... then he stops the advance of his troops only to get fooled by Luke's force projection hologram. Then goes down there to play in the hands of Luke. He is shown destroying equipment for no reason and having zero handle on his emotion. If that is not an incompetent commander... I don't know what is.

At the end of the day both sides are in a similar place as they used to be, minus some major leaders on both sides. Rey learned Kylo is beyond saving and truly a monster and Kylo is in control of an army and willing to do whatever it takes to take control of everything and start anew. There is no positive vibe to the ending of the film and we shouldn't expect the resistance to be in a great situation, especially considering it has been reduced to a single ship that is a piece of garbage.

Minus some leaders on both sides... Alliance still has all of its main leaders minus Akbar, purple haired plot device commander and Luke. But Luke wasn't a leader for the alliance he was a recluse hermit. Snoke was THE supreme commander. More powerful than anyone on either side. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing ?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think we will have to agree to disagree, because I have a lot of issues with what you saw in the scenes you are describing.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Are they the rebels or the resistance? The writers seemingly forgot half way through the movie that they weren't supposed to reference the blatant plagiarism.

It's the type of nitpicking that happens when a movie is not good. That's a small detail that shows Johnson didn't care that much. We would normally not care about it if the movie had actually been good. But when it's bad, your subconscious tells you that something doesn't add up.. and then you start looking into it in details.. and that's when you start noticing these things.

When I saw the film initially, during the movie, I saw some things that really bothered me. But I didn't have time to analyze them, think about them, the movie kept furiously advancing at a rapid pace. But after it was all over, I was left with a bittersweet taste in my mouth. And the more I thought about it... the more I realized that nothing actually makes sense in this movie. The more I realize it does not follow the rules established by previous movies in this universe.

After the force awakens... I wasn't left with this feeling. I initially thought it was really good and that it had hit the right notes. When you spend time to analyze it.. it doesn't really hold up. There are a lot of flaws, things that are poorly explained or don't make sense. But the movie itself.. when you turned your brain off... nothing really broke your immersion like what happened in TLJ. So turning your brain switch off and just enjoying TFA was entirely possible. I couldn't even do that with TLJ.. it was just that bad. It felt meh on first viewing.. and it only gets worse from there.

One of my biggest beef... is when I saw Ren slowly turning the lightsaber.... I was like... noo.... it can't be that easy to kill such an omnipotent character. They can't kill him while he is currently gloating that he can see into the mind of Ren.....

"I cannot be betrayed, I cannot be beaten, I see his mind, I see his every intent, yessss, I see him turning the lightsaber to strike through, and now foolish child, he ignites it and kills his true enemy, arghhh"

Is that a joke ?

Then I'm given no time to think and more action continues to happen. So I don't dwell on it, I move on. But part of my immersion is killed there. It's killed because it's a dumb turn of events, poorly executed. He was omnipotent, capable of force tricks never seen before, literally capable of ripping thoughts out of the heads of people... but he got beaten in the easiest most stupid way WHILE he was bragging he can't be beaten and can read into his killer's mind... Went from scary omnipotent force of evil to punchline in 3 seconds... could they have made the most menacing villain of this trilogy even more of a joke ?

It's as if the emperor while force lightninging Luke in XI was saying : I cannot be beaten, I cannot be betrayed, I can currently read the mind of Darth vader, he thinks of throwing someone down a shaft.

Then vader picks him up and throws him down the shaft and the emperor looks surprised...

WTF.

 

[Osprey]

Huh?

I am not going to get into the whole Holdo thing (because I have already argued it with the same people who are still posting in this thread), but how do you miss the fact that Rey failed spectacularly in her entire end goal? She tries to get Luke to train her and doesn't get any kind of training other than a couple lessons because of his disdain for the "order". She then leaves to face Kylo Ren and turn him away from the dark side like Luke did with Darth Vader and fails spectacularly at doing so, and even helps lead to Ren taking complete control of the First Order.

Rey didn't fail spectacularly. She still succeeded, just not in the manner that she planned.

She wanted to convince Luke to come out of seclusion to help the Resistance and she wanted some training from him. She did fail over and over again at those... until, eventually, she succeeded at both. The Resistance might've been wiped out on Crait if Luke hadn't distracted Kylo long enough for them to escape, and they also might not have escaped if Rey hadn't lifted all of those rocks, a newfound skill that implies that her lessons (however limited) from Luke were transformative.

She next wanted to turn Kylo to the light side and, while she didn't succeed at that, it was a success that her presence helped get the Supreme Leader killed, along with all of his guard. The First Order is now being run by an unstable man child who's easily duped and gets tunnel vision (see Crait), who doesn't have a Force-wielding second in command, who has less protection around him and whom Rey has learned some things about that she might be able to exploit in the future. There's even still the possibility that he might still turn, since he seemed so close to doing so, or even that she may be able to trick him into thinking that she changed her mind about joining him. She ultimately walks away from an enemy that is weakened and with information that she may be able to use against it later on. That's a success, even if it's not the success that she was aiming for.

At the end of the day both sides are in a similar place as they used to be, minus some major leaders on both sides. Rey learned Kylo is beyond saving and truly a monster and Kylo is in control of an army and willing to do whatever it takes to take control of everything and start anew. There is no positive vibe to the ending of the film and we shouldn't expect the resistance to be in a great situation, especially considering it has been reduced to a single ship that is a piece of garbage.

That's all true--both sides are now weaker and have lost major leaders--but the fact that the First Order is weaker is partly because of her and the fact that the Resistance is also weaker is in no way because of her (it's because of Poe, Finn, Holdo and company). At the end of the day, she did her job, even if her fellow rebels negated it. She's like the superstar forward who scores a hattrick, but, while doing that, the goalie and defense negate it by allowing three goals. The fact that the team is no better off than when they started doesn't mean that the star forward failed at his or her job, just as it doesn't mean that Rey failed at hers. You can say that there's no positive vibe at the end of the film, because the Resistance is in rough shape, but it's not because of Rey, whose actions and development are actually the silver lining and sliver of hope.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

You just chose to ignore the thing I specifically said she failed spectacularly at, and instead focused on the FO being weaker (not really demonstrated, especially relative to the resistance) and her being stronger (which wasn't really demonstrated either). Okay.

I responded to your "failures" with the outcome of her attempts, I thought that was obvious, not sure how you missed that

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Outside some plot conveniences, Rey doesen't lose or fail at anything once in either TFA, or TLJ.

Mary Sue's or going to Mary Sue, because they litterally have nothing else.

 

[NyQuil]

Outside some plot conveniences, Rey doesen't lose or fail at anything once in either TFA, or TLJ.

Mary Sue's or going to Mary Sue, because they litterally have nothing else.

Er, how does one fail when it isn't convenient for the plot?

The film is a plot.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

This is the only main-themed Star Wars I have not watched at least four times. I don't count side stories as the main story.

I have not even re-watched it once. I hovered over it a few times but then just continued on....

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I responded to your "failures" with the outcome of her attempts, I thought that was obvious, not sure how you missed that

The attempt to bring Kylo out of the dark side was her major gambit, which would have ended the entire war.

If her only successes are two things that weren't really demonstrated as successes (or at all), then that doesn't make her a success in any way shape or form.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The attempt to bring Kylo out of the dark side was her major gambit, which would have ended the entire war.

If her only successes are two things that weren't really demonstrated as successes (or at all), then that doesn't make her a success in any way shape or form.

hmm? I think you quoted the wrong person but she definitely had waaay more than 2 successes

 

[Jussi]

Brilliant as always.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Poe has more or less the same arc in TLJ as Han in Empire- he acts in a "masculine" way, and this leads everyone into trouble.

The difference is, TLJ bent over backwards to get the audience on Poe's side and to present Poe as if he were right while at the same time not really punishing him for his failures. Holdo is a dick to Poe, which makes us hate her because we like Poe (nevermind that her point, while presented in a douchey way, is right on the money, Poe did just get a bunch of people killed for no real reason), so we don't question whether or not Poe is doing the right thing here. Han's arc is both more subtle and it really screws him/everyone else over.

I agree that there are no positive "masculine" role models in TFA and TLJ. And also note that TLJ goes out of it's way to present Poe AND you (the audience) as wrong for agreeing with him while Han is moreso the writers thinking, "Okay, Han Solo is X character, how can we use this to create dramatic scenes?" than making a point about masculinity.

The argument over whether Rey failed/succeeded or not misses that this is irrelevant to the fact that there is massive muddling of character information here...as far as Rey should be concerned, Ren is a Nazi a-hole who has murdered a bunch of people, who also killed someone she kinda liked. We know why she thinks Ren can be redeemed (she senses light in him), but why would she actually want to do this? Why does it matter to her? The implication is that she wants to redeem the Jedi Order, but then the question becomes, why does she give two craps about the Jedi Order? And like Poe, she isn't punished for her screwup- she just walks away! Same with the "failure" with the C'thulu monsters in TFA, she lets them loose, but it doesn't mean anything when no one mentions is again.

So if you're talking about success and failure, you need to talk about what it meant to that character. Not if it's a checklist of "do they succeed or fail?" Rey's failure has massive plot effects, but little character affectation.

(I was gonna suggest something like explaining that Rey had an older brother with whom she was very close, and that her issues stem from a refusal to admit he failed: but then that would ignite the internet with REN IS REY'S BROTHER and mah God, that's awful)