Stamkos Debate - PostDeadline 2016

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Battle Lin

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Dec 18, 2015
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lets all hope for a TB 1st round exit, that would help a lot...then win the lottery

jvr matthews stamkos - one of top lines in nhl, size, speed, skill, and tons of scoring
 

The Thin White Duke

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Aug 11, 2009
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ehhh finalist?


coulda swore Tbay made the finals last year.

err jersey in 2012

rangers in 2014

flyers 2010

They did, with Tyler Johnson facing the top match-ups. Jersey had Zajac, his only redeeming quality is his shutdown/matchup ability. Flyers, really? A cinderella run on Richards/Pronger's backs with the luxury of Giroux as another option didn't rely on high end match-up centers?

Closest one is the Rangers if you don't hold Stepan in high regards, so I guess we could use their strategy and find a perennial Vezina candidate to sign for 8.5+ instead.
 

Rude Dog

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Dec 22, 2008
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The issue isn't how much you're paying Stamkos, its how much you'll be paying the guys who do the things he can't. Even if we get Stamkos we'd still need an elite match-up center if we plan on being serious contenders. Go ahead and find me a recent cup finalist without one, I'll wait.

10 mil on Stamkos + another 6+ on a Kesler/Couturier type doesn't make sense to me personally. Maybe if we get Matthews and he becomes that guy it would be OK while he's on his ELC/bridge.

If we don't get Stamkos we need 2 top line centres. If that is the case and we miss out on Mathews this rebuild is going to last a long time. Too many wingers and no elite D or centers
 

Kiwi

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Mar 5, 2016
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All the talk about team Canada and him being a good toronto boy mean nothing to me

The only questions I have are
He has declined recently is that going to continue or not
How much does he want money wise and does that affect our ability to resign our young guys down the road
Is he the tipe of leader who can help our young guys to develop down the road
Does he hurt our draft position next year we have a lot of holes in the team and filling them with world class talent is a must if we want to win the cup
If he is signed to a long term deal (which he would be)on big money (11 mill plus)is the cap going up going to mitigate that somewhat
Is he going to do well in Babcocks system or not
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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The Mary StLoo "excuse" is being pointed to a "dip" in his production, not a complete disappearance of it. It's a chemistry thing.

As long as we don't expect Stamkos to ever produce at the rate he once did with Mary, that's fine.

If stammers game was going/gone or in true decline, I highly doubt team Canada would have made him such a high priority pick. They have plenty of prime candidates to use/chose in his place.

I agree that being selected to Team Canada shows he is still thought of as very good player. It's one thing to pick someone for a one-time tournament, it's another to commit to someone for 7 years. Do you understand the difference?

We are debating a "dip" in production that landed him in 2nd for goals scored total and EVSG and has him sitting 8th and a couple of G from top 5.

I'm doing my best to look at this objectively. As long as you only talk about goals and not points, it's clear that you're not. He used to be top 3 in points, when you're objective enough to post where he's been since the injury in not just goals, but also points, then maybe we can have an interesting conversation.


It's a shame that you don't think it matters that a highly skilled and creative player like STLoo got replace by Killorn and Callahan and I find it doubly concerning that you don't believe marner or willi would be skilled or creative enough to work with and feed off of a player of stammers caliber.

I'm sure Nylander/Marner will be fine players. It's another thing to say they will develop the kind of chemistry with Stamkos that Marty did.
Do you see what I mean now?
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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They did, with Tyler Johnson facing the top match-ups. Jersey had Zajac, his only redeeming quality is his shutdown/matchup ability. Flyers, really? A cinderella run on Richards/Pronger's backs with the luxury of Giroux as another option didn't rely on high end match-up centers?

Closest one is the Rangers if you don't hold Stepan in high regards, so I guess we could use their strategy and find a perennial Vezina candidate to sign for 8.5+ instead.

Oh I'm sorry TTWD , I understood that you actually meant what you typed.

There are your words.

Even if we get Stamkos we'd still need an elite match-up center if we plan on being serious contenders

Your words "elite match -up center" you and I disagree greatly on what that means

if your going to toss out names like zajac,stepan,Johnson and call them elite?

hahaha FINE i'll counter with Kadri,Bozak under coach babcock, any and every single day of the week.
 

BayStreetBully

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Oct 25, 2007
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All the talk about team Canada and him being a good toronto boy mean nothing to me

The only questions I have are
He has declined recently is that going to continue or not
How much does he want money wise and does that affect our ability to resign our young guys down the road
Is he the tipe of leader who can help our young guys to develop down the road
Does he hurt our draft position next year we have a lot of holes in the team and filling them with world class talent is a must if we want to win the cup
If he is signed to a long term deal (which he would be)on big money (11 mill plus)is the cap going up going to mitigate that somewhat
Is he going to do well in Babcocks system or not

Yep, I have the same questions too. Mainly his production and cap.

I don't know what to think of his production anymore. Today's NHL is so eff'ed up that no one is scoring anything these days. It's gotten to the point where I'm just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Though admittedly, I'll probably go back and forth until July anyway.
 

The Thin White Duke

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Aug 11, 2009
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Oh I'm sorry TTWD , I understood that you actually meant what you typed.

There are your words.

Even if we get Stamkos we'd still need an elite match-up center if we plan on being serious contenders

Your words "elite match -up center" you and I disagree greatly on what that means

if your going to toss out names like zajac,stepan,Johnson and call them elite?

hahaha FINE i'll counter with Kadri,Bozak under coach babcock, any and every single day of the week.

Zajac was elite defensively at the time (and still arguably is), feel free to disprove that if you can. His offense leaves a lot to be desired, which was mitigated by having Parise and Kovalchuk, both of whom were outstanding defensively as well.

Tyler Johnson was unquestionably elite last year, again, feel free to try and build an argument against that. He had some of the best scoring% and possession metrics in the league.

Stepan is without a doubt the weakest of the group, and he's still significantly better than Kadri or Bozak. Miles better if we're talking purely from a defensive/shutdown perspective.

The other thing is that of the teams you listed, 2 of them were Cinderella runs (NJ and Philly), and the Rangers were built around a borderline generational goalie + elite D core. If we look past recent cup finalists to perennial contenders, the majority of them have high end match-up centers.

Fact is you need a guy who can go out against the opponent's top line and at LEAST break even against them. Stamkos does not do this. It's not his fault necessarily, his natural talents just don't lend themselves to a puck possession game anymore. He's not a primary puck carrier on his line, although he is great at converting chances. He's the piece you add if you have money left after finding your true #1C.
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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Zajac was elite defensively at the time (and still arguably is), feel free to disprove that if you can. His offense leaves a lot to be desired, which was mitigated by having Parise and Kovalchuk, both of whom were outstanding defensively as well.

Tyler Johnson was unquestionably elite last year, again, feel free to try and build an argument against that. He had some of the best scoring% and possession metrics in the league.

Stepan is without a doubt the weakest of the group, and he's still significantly better than Kadri or Bozak. Miles better if we're talking purely from a defensive/shutdown perspective.

The other thing is that of the teams you listed, 2 of them were Cinderella runs (NJ and Philly), and the Rangers were built around a borderline generational goalie + elite D core. If we look past recent cup finalists to perennial contenders, the majority of them have high end match-up centers.

Fact is you need a guy who can go out against the opponent's top line and at LEAST break even against them. Stamkos does not do this. It's not his fault necessarily, his natural talents just don't lend themselves to a puck possession game anymore. He's not a primary puck carrier on his line, although he is great at converting chances. He's the piece you add if you have money left after finding your true #1C.

Ok that's what I thought

your definition of "ELITE" and who is elite or not

is not even in the same universe as mine.
 

The Thin White Duke

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Aug 11, 2009
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Ok that's what I thought

your definition of "ELITE" and who is elite or not

is not even in the same universe as mine.

What's your baseline for "elite"? Can you give me some sort of objective criteria?

It sounds like you just draw an arbitrary line based on how you feel about players, you haven't actually made an argument as to why Johnson or Zajac wouldn't be considered elite defensive/possession players in their respective cup runs.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Re: Johnson, Stepan and Zajac, there's a difference between performing in an elite capacity for a duration of time and being an elite center who is proven over many years. In terms of elite two way centermen, you look at those classic Toews, Bergeron types...

In Stamkos' case, he's hardly the dysfunctional one dimensional scorer people imagine him to be. He's got great speed, backchecks hard and is willing to throw his weight around on the forecheck. Defensively, he's serviceable, if not remarkable. Just watch tonight.
 

The Thin White Duke

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Aug 11, 2009
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Re: Johnson, Stepan and Zajac, there's a difference between performing in an elite capacity for a duration of time and being an elite center who is proven over many years. In terms of elite two way centermen, you look at those classic Toews, Bergeron types...

In Stamkos' case, he's hardly the dysfunctional one dimensional scorer people imagine him to be. He's got great speed, backchecks hard and is willing to throw his weight around on the forecheck. Defensively, he's serviceable, if not remarkable. Just watch tonight.

That's my point, serviceable just isn't enough unless you can shelter him behind someone better. Is anyone really going to try and tell me that in a 7-game series, you'd expect Stamkos to outscore Bergeron, Towes or Kopitar? I have a hard time seeing how Stamkos doesn't get outscored considerably against a true #1C if they're being sent out against him every shift he takes. There's a reason he scores at a 25/35 pace in the playoffs. You shouldn't have to shelter a 10+ million dollar player.

He is a great player but his game is not built for puck possession. He can't use his best tools if he's holding on to the puck, he needs to be able to disappear in the offensive zone to make the most use of his tools. "Backchecking hard" isn't enough to make up for that.
 

Bravid Nonahan

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That's my point, serviceable just isn't enough unless you can shelter him behind someone better. Is anyone really going to try and tell me that in a 7-game series, you'd expect Stamkos to outscore Bergeron, Towes or Kopitar? I have a hard time seeing how Stamkos doesn't get outscored considerably against a true #1C if they're being sent out against him every shift he takes. There's a reason he scores at a 25/35 pace in the playoffs. You shouldn't have to shelter a 10+ million dollar player.

He is a great player but his game is not built for puck possession. He can't use his best tools if he's holding on to the puck, he needs to be able to disappear in the offensive zone to make the most use of his tools. "Backchecking hard" isn't enough to make up for that.

not every player is doug gilmour
 

Snow Dog

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Jan 3, 2013
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It's quite obvious the Lightning are trying to play a defensive game this season.That means all players,including Stamkos.There is a possibility that could have led to his dip in production.As has the production of his teammates.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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That's my point, serviceable just isn't enough unless you can shelter him behind someone better. Is anyone really going to try and tell me that in a 7-game series, you'd expect Stamkos to outscore Bergeron, Towes or Kopitar? I have a hard time seeing how Stamkos doesn't get outscored considerably against a true #1C if they're being sent out against him every shift he takes. There's a reason he scores at a 25/35 pace in the playoffs. You shouldn't have to shelter a 10+ million dollar player.

He is a great player but his game is not built for puck possession. He can't use his best tools if he's holding on to the puck, he needs to be able to disappear in the offensive zone to make the most use of his tools. "Backchecking hard" isn't enough to make up for that.

The way I see it, if you were entering a do or die playoff scenario:

Toews/Kopitar >>> Stamkos

But Toews and Kopitar are not impending UFAs, and

Stamkos >>> Nothing

I'm not looking for perfection. Just a building block we can add to the arsenal as the team moves forward.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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The closer you get to perfection in a player, the possibility of that player becoming available as a free agent or in trade diminishes to near zero. Stamkos is not perfect but he's still a great player, and he might become available for whatever reason.
 

McMatthews

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Stamkos was ineffective tonight but he played hard.

I still love him.

Cdo0qZcW0AAT4F-.jpg
 

Damisoph

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I heard someone on TSN1050 and then Stellick last night talking about Detroit being a good destination for Stamkos. They were saying Stammer won't want to come to Toronto to rebuild for years, but he'd want to go to Detroit just to tread water, maybe make the playoffs but have no real shot at a Cup? This media sometimes....
 

Stigma

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I heard someone on TSN1050 and then Stellick last night talking about Detroit being a good destination for Stamkos. They were saying Stammer won't want to come to Toronto to rebuild for years, but he'd want to go to Detroit just to tread water, maybe make the playoffs but have no real shot at a Cup? This media sometimes....
I agree. It's like these media types have these great fluid, verbal skills, but are missing the logical and deductive reasoning skills.

Stamkos going to Buffalo, and not Toronto, is another silly hypothesis.
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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I think there's going to be a lot of disappointed Leaf fans when he re-signs in TB or elsewhere
But i hope i'm wrong

I say, hell with that, dare to dream, I say.

This is a dream, not a utter fantasy.

He is unsigned

We have the cap space and dire need of a #1c

He has connections to Toronto and the leafs

The rumours that Stammer/Tbay is not a perfect marriage right now and their possible cap issues.

for me at least, those combine into a situation where one can dream a little.

unlike utter fantasy like Trade Lupul for McDavid type stuff.
 

Pookie

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Dreams are fine. Eventually one wakes up though and the reality of a guaranteed +$80m contract comes to consciousness for both the player and the team chasing him
 

Macallan18

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I say, hell with that, dare to dream, I say.

This is a dream, not a utter fantasy.

He is unsigned

We have the cap space and dire need of a #1c

He has connections to Toronto and the leafs

The rumours that Stammer/Tbay is not a perfect marriage right now and their possible cap issues.

for me at least, those combine into a situation where one can dream a little.

unlike utter fantasy like Trade Lupul for McDavid type stuff.

This
 

Swervin81

Leaf fan | YYZ -> SEA
Nov 10, 2011
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I think there's going to be a lot of disappointed Leaf fans when he re-signs in TB or elsewhere
But i hope i'm wrong

If Tampa gives him $10M or more, I'm honestly happy they have yet another albatross on their hands. That's their problem for 8 years then.
 

Stand Witness

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I agree. It's like these media types have these great fluid, verbal skills, but are missing the logical and deductive reasoning skills.

Stamkos going to Buffalo, and not Toronto, is another silly hypothesis.

Not that ridiculous because most, if not all of the positives to coming to Toronto also apply to Buffalo too except for one big thing which is generally the motive besides the move which is he would be doing this to come home.
 
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