Salary Cap: Signing Jacob Trouba Part II

[puck stoppa]

That is an awful deal for Tampa. We would be lucky to get one of Sergachev and Point in a trade. That being said, if one of them isn't coming back, I want nothing to do with trading Trouba to Tampa.

Ya, I think one of those other prospects would be most likely where I had Point.
Maybe like Trouba and Petan for Serg and Cirelli.

 

[Hunter368]

Maybe it's Trouba feeling the pressure to perform this year so he can get the huge contract, but he just seems "off" to me this season compared to previous. Just my feel from what I see.

I would trade him today if I could get someone to overpay for him.

He does seem a bit off this year or a bit uncomfortable

 

[ps241]

I feel like a portion of our fan base are off Trouba now because of the Jilted lover syndrome.

I believe Trouba and Trouba’s camp are two different things.

Not sure anyone here really knows what is going to happen.

I am good no matter what as long as we maximize asset value.

 

[nobody important]

Actually it is real medecine. Looked it up. Only slightly different from standard medical practice and licensed in parallel in the US.

I'm sure there's a lot in common, but just looking at her profile, she talks about integrating "Eastern medicine", homeopathy, Reiki. A lot of that stuff is just quackery, and I wouldn't be surprised if she focuses more on the "fruit loops" side of things. Hey, to each their own but I think I'll stick with a good old fashioned MD for my ailments. Or even just a good Old Fashioned.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm sure there's a lot in common, but just looking at her profile, she talks about integrating "Eastern medicine", homeopathy, Reiki. A lot of that stuff is just quackery, and I wouldn't be surprised if she focuses more on the "fruit loops" side of things. Hey, to each their own but I think I'll stick with a good old fashioned MD for my ailments. Or even just a good Old Fashioned.

Doesn't sound like anyone I would go to for medical advice but she might change after 4 years of med school, 1 year internship and 2 years residency that she will need for a license.

I don't know if skipping the internship and residency and operating unlicensed as an osteopath is an option or not.

According to Wikipedia, osteopathy has evolved to be almost indistinguishable from conventional medicine. Who am I to argue?

 

[scelaton]

I'm sure there's a lot in common, but just looking at her profile, she talks about integrating "Eastern medicine", homeopathy, Reiki. A lot of that stuff is just quackery, and I wouldn't be surprised if she focuses more on the "fruit loops" side of things. Hey, to each their own but I think I'll stick with a good old fashioned MD for my ailments. Or even just a good Old Fashioned.

The roots of osteopathic medicine are more on 'hands-on' manipulation and less on pharmacologic treatments...and to be fair, lots of pharmaceuticals, especially in years past, have been toxic.

Out of interest, I looked up NSU S of O--IMO it's highly unlikely she ever works in Canada with the educational orientation of that school. Also, it's ~$60K USD per year for tuition-related fees, not including cost of living. Trouba is going to have a hefty bank loan to repay in the next four years if they stay together. He should probably think about signing a decent contract.

All in all, it makes me fairly pessimistic about prospects of that couple ever living here....and I'm the optimist here!

 

[ps241]

The roots of osteopathic medicine are more on 'hands-on' manipulation and less on pharmacologic treatments...and to be fair, lots of pharmaceuticals, especially in years past, have been toxic.

Out of interest, I looked up NSU S of O--IMO it's highly unlikely she ever works in Canada with the educational orientation of that school. Also, it's ~$60K USD per year for tuition-related fees, not including cost of living. Trouba is going to have a hefty bank loan to repay in the next four years if they stay together. He should probably think about signing a decent contract.

All in all, it makes me fairly pessimistic about prospects of that couple ever living here....and I'm the optimist here!

It is highly unlikely he is getting a job to accommodate where his girlfriend or wife is currently going to school. He is going to be making between $6 to $8 million a year for the next 10-12 years but it will require him to work for 8 to 10 months a years in another city. As a couple they will need to figure that out.

 

[JetsFan815]

The roots of osteopathic medicine are more on 'hands-on' manipulation and less on pharmacologic treatments...and to be fair, lots of pharmaceuticals, especially in years past, have been toxic.

Out of interest, I looked up NSU S of O--IMO it's highly unlikely she ever works in Canada with the educational orientation of that school. Also, it's ~$60K USD per year for tuition-related fees, not including cost of living. Trouba is going to have a hefty bank loan to repay in the next four years if they stay together. He should probably think about signing a decent contract.

All in all, it makes me fairly pessimistic about prospects of that couple ever living here....and I'm the optimist here!

It is highly unlikely he is getting a job to accommodate where his girlfriend or wife is currently going to school. He is going to be making between $6 to $8 million a year for the next 10-12 years but it will require him to work for 8 to 10 months a years in another city. As a couple they will need to figure that out.

And I mean if it's just about the gf situation, I am sure TNSE can employ her as a doctor with the organisation. I am not sure how much this kind of dr makes but on average they make what like 300k-400k a year in the US and like 150k in Canada? That is pocket change for TNSE in the grand scheme of things. It's not like TNSE has been shy in the past with employing relatives of players in different roles.

 

[scelaton]

And I mean if it's just about the gf situation, I am sure TNSE can employ her as a doctor with the organisation. I am not sure how much this kind of dr makes but on average they make what like 300k-400k a year in the US and like 150k in Canada? That is pocket change for TNSE in the grand scheme of things. It's not like TNSE has been shy in the past with employing relatives of players in different roles.

Doesn't work like that. She has to first be licensed to practice in Canada, which will be a real challenge, IMO.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Can we move the osteo-med discussion to the Trouba thread?

 

[scelaton]

It is highly unlikely he is getting a job to accommodate where his girlfriend or wife is currently going to school. He is going to be making between $6 to $8 million a year for the next 10-12 years but it will require him to work for 8 to 10 months a years in another city. As a couple they will need to figure that out.

It may not just be about her school, but rather her career.
What if in 24/31 NHL cities he could get a job in close proximity to where she worked?
As a primary care osteopath, I suspect she could work in almost any state in the US. Not so in Canada, not at all. Imagine going to University for 12 years and not being able to practice for the first 10 years after you get your license?
So, all this talk of Trouba wanting to play in the US for endorsements may not be the whole story.

 

[Georgetown Al]

The roots of osteopathic medicine are more on 'hands-on' manipulation and less on pharmacologic treatments...and to be fair, lots of pharmaceuticals, especially in years past, have been toxic.

Out of interest, I looked up NSU S of O--IMO it's highly unlikely she ever works in Canada with the educational orientation of that school. Also, it's ~$60K USD per year for tuition-related fees, not including cost of living. Trouba is going to have a hefty bank loan to repay in the next four years if they stay together. He should probably think about signing a decent contract.

All in all, it makes me fairly pessimistic about prospects of that couple ever living here....and I'm the optimist here!

I disagree, I for one believe Troubs loves it here and he knows for a fact that the opportunity he has with TNSE and his Jets team who's trajectory in accomplishing great seasons and good times in the NHL including his own career... is right here right now at home in Winnipeg ...

Jacob is going to be a Playoff Winning Beast here at home with his buds on The Winnipeg Jets.

I Believe...

 

[ps241]

It may not just be about her school, but rather her career.
What if in 24/31 NHL cities he could get a job in close proximity to where she worked?
As a primary care osteopath, I suspect she could work in almost any state in the US. Not so in Canada, not at all. Imagine going to University for 12 years and not being able to practice for the first 10 years after you get your license?
So, all this talk of Trouba wanting to play in the US for endorsements may not be the whole story.

How long is the schooling?

I guess we will see but there are lots of moving parts with the Trouba story I am just going to let it play out. I would like to see him here for another six seasons and a cup or two but if that’s not how it plays out so be it. I have faith Chevy will navigate through the rapids on this one and come out the other side ok.

 

[dabizz]

Can we move the osteo-med discussion to the Trouba thread?

X2

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It is highly unlikely he is getting a job to accommodate where his girlfriend or wife is currently going to school. He is going to be making between $6 to $8 million a year for the next 10-12 years but it will require him to work for 8 to 10 months a years in another city. As a couple they will need to figure that out.

The period of study, with internship and residency is 7 years, 6 after this season. I don't think we can assume that the internship and residency will be done close to the school's location but nearer is probably more likely than farther. After those 6 years she probably becomes pretty flexible about location, at least within the US. That is the first half of the rest of his career.

Exactly how much weight he gives proximity to her we can't know. But it does make for a pretty obvious preference on his part to playing for either Florida or Tampa, especially Florida. BB&T Centre is about 10 km from Nova Southeastern University. Amalie Arena is about 350 km. Add to that Florida's climate and taxes and I don't think it is a stretch to expect him to want to go there. Question is, how far is he willing to go to get what he wants?

 

[Whileee]

The period of study, with internship and residency is 7 years, 6 after this season. I don't think we can assume that the internship and residency will be done close to the school's location but nearer is probably more likely than farther. After those 6 years she probably becomes pretty flexible about location, at least within the US. That is the first half of the rest of his career.

Exactly how much weight he gives proximity to her we can't know. But it does make for a pretty obvious preference on his part to playing for either Florida or Tampa, especially Florida. BB&T Centre is about 10 km from Nova Southeastern University. Amalie Arena is about 350 km. Add to that Florida's climate and taxes and I don't think it is a stretch to expect him to want to go there. Question is, how far is he willing to go to get what he wants?

Even Overhardt will understand that the Jets won't limit trade options to one or two markets. That's unrealistic. Trouba probably understands that as well. Trouba's option is to just force his way to UFA by taking a couple of below-market contracts and probably getting traded to an undesirable destination in the meantime, and then sign a low-market contract with Florida if he really wants. But that risks messing up the best years of his NHL career with low salary and possibly being in less than ideal circumstances to win and produce.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

And I mean if it's just about the gf situation, I am sure TNSE can employ her as a doctor with the organisation. I am not sure how much this kind of dr makes but on average they make what like 300k-400k a year in the US and like 150k in Canada? That is pocket change for TNSE in the grand scheme of things. It's not like TNSE has been shy in the past with employing relatives of players in different roles.

Doesn't work like that. She has to first be licensed to practice in Canada, which will be a real challenge, IMO.

In either case - she is 6+ years away from being licensed. Trouba turns 24 in < 2 mos. As I recall, I couldn't look more than 6 years ahead when I was 24. 6 years was still an eternity at that age. Of course my memories of being that age are pretty faint but I think I can safely speculate that the next 6 years are the most important 6 years in his future from his current POV.

 

[Georgetown Al]

The period of study, with internship and residency is 7 years, 6 after this season. I don't think we can assume that the internship and residency will be done close to the school's location but nearer is probably more likely than farther. After those 6 years she probably becomes pretty flexible about location, at least within the US. That is the first half of the rest of his career.

Exactly how much weight he gives proximity to her we can't know. But it does make for a pretty obvious preference on his part to playing for either Florida or Tampa, especially Florida. BB&T Centre is about 10 km from Nova Southeastern University. Amalie Arena is about 350 km. Add to that Florida's climate and taxes and I don't think it is a stretch to expect him to want to go there. Question is, how far is he willing to go to get what he wants?

Troubs most important question to answer is how far is he willing to sabotage his own NHL career for hers?

Be selfish this time Troubs... Win Big in Winnipeg! ___

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Even Overhardt will understand that the Jets won't limit trade options to one or two markets. That's unrealistic. Trouba probably understands that as well. Trouba's option is to just force his way to UFA by taking a couple of below-market contracts and probably getting traded to an undesirable destination in the meantime, and then sign a low-market contract with Florida if he really wants. But that risks messing up the best years of his NHL career with low salary and possibly being in less than ideal circumstances to win and produce.

I agree that it is quite complicated for Trouba to insist on a specific outcome. But I think you are overstating the difficulties from Trouba's side.

To go UFA he would need to accept two 1 year arbitration awards. Those don't pay below market but, being 1 year deals they also don't blend RFA and UFA years. So their AAV's are lower than what a long term deal would bring. Once UFA is reached the player tries to make up the difference. Whether that is a successful strategy or not is complicated. I think we can assume that 2x1 year deals plus 1x6 year equal roughly the same total as 1x8 year deal. Roughly. That doesn't account for the risk of injury or poorer play than expected. There are probably more mitigating factors. Like I said, its complicated.

But players do choose to go the UFA route, every year. So there must be arguments in favour in spite of the inherent risks.

Once he achieves UFA status he can negotiate directly with the team or teams of his choice. From the POV of that team is it much different than locking up a player they drafted and developed themselves? Somewhat different, obviously but I think not too much. Fla gave Ekblad 60 mil over 8 years right out of his ELC. That covers him from age 21 to 29. Trouba would be 26 when he can first reach UFA so 8 years would cover 26-34. Maybe they do a 6 year deal at that point so 26-32.

If you were GM of the team Trouba comes to saying he prefers you to any other team, but that most other teams are still possibilities how would you deal with it? I think you assess the whole situation. What does Trouba bring? What do you already have? Do you need what he brings? How much are you willing to commit to that position? Etc. Then you negotiate. If there is no fit, then no deal will get done. Trouba would certainly have a number of offers to choose from. At some point he sees that getting his 1st or 2nd choice costs him too much and he signs elsewhere. Or one of his first 2 makes him an offer he likes. Either it happens or it doesn't. We are just talking possibilities.

I think Trouba's best chance of getting where he wants is by trade. And at that I really can't assess his chances very well. It is very speculative. My first reaction is that Fla would not want the cap hit of Ekblad and Trouba both on the right side. That also figures into the UFA consideration. So a Trouba for Ekblad trade would get him to Fla. Jets would need to add. Even if the value was a 100% match Fla would need some reason to move. They don't need to do anything. So the question is, how much of an add would Fla require and would Jets be willing to make that add? If we could add some spare parts or prospects who don't appear to fit our needs it could be good for both sides. Maybe Fla saves a little money in the process.

I like our fit trading with TBL better but it is still speculative. I think they have a greater need for what we would be selling but Yzerman may not see it that way.

So how Overhardt and Trouba assess the situation is something we can't know. Certainly KO will think through all these scenarios and advise Trouba accordingly. Maybe he tells Trouba to sign for 6 years and ask Chevy to find a trade in a more desirable location. That leaves neither side up against it so maybe improves the chances of getting a fair trade.

The long and the short of it is that all parties have cards to play. In the end, I'm pretty sure Trouba has a preference for Fla. Whether he can get what he wants remains to be seen.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Troubs most important question to answer is how far is he willing to sabotage his own NHL career for hers?

Be selfish this time Troubs... Win Big in Winnipeg! ___

He doesn't necessarily have to sabotage his career at all. He may have to go through some pain and take a risk of sabotaging his career.

It also isn't necessarily his career vs hers. It may simply be how much is he willing to do to be spending his time with her, regardless of her career. Or what, if anything is she willing to sacrifice to be with him.

I would be equally happy keeping him or trading him - as long as we get good value. That is, value that fits our roster needs.

 

[Gil Fisher]

X2

Do we have any Mods to sabe this thread?

 

[Whileee]

I agree that it is quite complicated for Trouba to insist on a specific outcome. But I think you are overstating the difficulties from Trouba's side.

To go UFA he would need to accept two 1 year arbitration awards. Those don't pay below market but, being 1 year deals they also don't blend RFA and UFA years. So their AAV's are lower than what a long term deal would bring. Once UFA is reached the player tries to make up the difference. Whether that is a successful strategy or not is complicated. I think we can assume that 2x1 year deals plus 1x6 year equal roughly the same total as 1x8 year deal. Roughly. That doesn't account for the risk of injury or poorer play than expected. There are probably more mitigating factors. Like I said, its complicated.

But players do choose to go the UFA route, every year. So there must be arguments in favour in spite of the inherent risks.

Once he achieves UFA status he can negotiate directly with the team or teams of his choice. From the POV of that team is it much different than locking up a player they drafted and developed themselves? Somewhat different, obviously but I think not too much. Fla gave Ekblad 60 mil over 8 years right out of his ELC. That covers him from age 21 to 29. Trouba would be 26 when he can first reach UFA so 8 years would cover 26-34. Maybe they do a 6 year deal at that point so 26-32.

If you were GM of the team Trouba comes to saying he prefers you to any other team, but that most other teams are still possibilities how would you deal with it? I think you assess the whole situation. What does Trouba bring? What do you already have? Do you need what he brings? How much are you willing to commit to that position? Etc. Then you negotiate. If there is no fit, then no deal will get done. Trouba would certainly have a number of offers to choose from. At some point he sees that getting his 1st or 2nd choice costs him too much and he signs elsewhere. Or one of his first 2 makes him an offer he likes. Either it happens or it doesn't. We are just talking possibilities.

I think Trouba's best chance of getting where he wants is by trade. And at that I really can't assess his chances very well. It is very speculative. My first reaction is that Fla would not want the cap hit of Ekblad and Trouba both on the right side. That also figures into the UFA consideration. So a Trouba for Ekblad trade would get him to Fla. Jets would need to add. Even if the value was a 100% match Fla would need some reason to move. They don't need to do anything. So the question is, how much of an add would Fla require and would Jets be willing to make that add? If we could add some spare parts or prospects who don't appear to fit our needs it could be good for both sides. Maybe Fla saves a little money in the process.

I like our fit trading with TBL better but it is still speculative. I think they have a greater need for what we would be selling but Yzerman may not see it that way.

So how Overhardt and Trouba assess the situation is something we can't know. Certainly KO will think through all these scenarios and advise Trouba accordingly. Maybe he tells Trouba to sign for 6 years and ask Chevy to find a trade in a more desirable location. That leaves neither side up against it so maybe improves the chances of getting a fair trade.

The long and the short of it is that all parties have cards to play. In the end, I'm pretty sure Trouba has a preference for Fla. Whether he can get what he wants remains to be seen.

I'd be very wary of Ekblad and his history of concussions.

Trouba could try to force his way to UFA but if so he's going to have to live with uncertainty for two more years (could be traded to a crappy team) and then hope he can get a dream deal where he wants. Or maybe he looks at the hockey misery of O'Reilly, another of Overhardt's clients, and wonders if he might not be better optimizing his career in a stable, winning situation for the next several years.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd be very wary of Ekblad and his history of concussions.

Trouba could try to force his way to UFA but if so he's going to have to live with uncertainty for two more years (could be traded to a crappy team) and then hope he can get a dream deal where he wants. Or maybe he looks at the hockey misery of O'Reilly, another of Overhardt's clients, and wonders if he might not be better optimizing his career in a stable, winning situation for the next several years.

I don't know about Ekblad's concussion history being so bad. I thought it was just one. Not that one is good but so many players nowadays have 1 or 2. IIRC his was a fairly serious one but he seems to have recovered OK, no?

People always bring up the risks involved in going UFA. Yes, they exist. Yes, they are substantial. And yes, every year lots of players do it - in spite of those risks.

Edit: I see people are complaining about this OT discussion. No mod has stepped in to move it. I guess we should do it ourselves.

Like I said before, Trouba and Overhardt will consider all these factors. It will come down to how Trouba chooses to weight the various parts of the picture.

ROR was traded to a bad team - after signing for at least 1 mil/yr more than he should have gotten. That is always a risk for players without protection clauses.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I disagree, I for one believe Troubs loves it here and he knows for a fact that the opportunity he has with TNSE and his Jets team who's trajectory in accomplishing great seasons and good times in the NHL including his own career... is right here right now at home in Winnipeg ...

Jacob is going to be a Playoff Winning Beast here at home with his buds on The Winnipeg Jets.

I Believe...

How long is the schooling?

I guess we will see but there are lots of moving parts with the Trouba story I am just going to let it play out. I would like to see him here for another six seasons and a cup or two but if that’s not how it plays out so be it. I have faith Chevy will navigate through the rapids on this one and come out the other side ok.

Even Overhardt will understand that the Jets won't limit trade options to one or two markets. That's unrealistic. Trouba probably understands that as well. Trouba's option is to just force his way to UFA by taking a couple of below-market contracts and probably getting traded to an undesirable destination in the meantime, and then sign a low-market contract with Florida if he really wants. But that risks messing up the best years of his NHL career with low salary and possibly being in less than ideal circumstances to win and produce.

In either case - she is 6+ years away from being licensed. Trouba turns 24 in < 2 mos. As I recall, I couldn't look more than 6 years ahead when I was 24. 6 years was still an eternity at that age. Of course my memories of being that age are pretty faint but I think I can safely speculate that the next 6 years are the most important 6 years in his future from his current POV.

Troubs most important question to answer is how far is he willing to sabotage his own NHL career for hers?

Be selfish this time Troubs... Win Big in Winnipeg! ___

I agree that it is quite complicated for Trouba to insist on a specific outcome. But I think you are overstating the difficulties from Trouba's side.

To go UFA he would need to accept two 1 year arbitration awards. Those don't pay below market but, being 1 year deals they also don't blend RFA and UFA years. So their AAV's are lower than what a long term deal would bring. Once UFA is reached the player tries to make up the difference. Whether that is a successful strategy or not is complicated. I think we can assume that 2x1 year deals plus 1x6 year equal roughly the same total as 1x8 year deal. Roughly. That doesn't account for the risk of injury or poorer play than expected. There are probably more mitigating factors. Like I said, its complicated.

But players do choose to go the UFA route, every year. So there must be arguments in favour in spite of the inherent risks.

Once he achieves UFA status he can negotiate directly with the team or teams of his choice. From the POV of that team is it much different than locking up a player they drafted and developed themselves? Somewhat different, obviously but I think not too much. Fla gave Ekblad 60 mil over 8 years right out of his ELC. That covers him from age 21 to 29. Trouba would be 26 when he can first reach UFA so 8 years would cover 26-34. Maybe they do a 6 year deal at that point so 26-32.

If you were GM of the team Trouba comes to saying he prefers you to any other team, but that most other teams are still possibilities how would you deal with it? I think you assess the whole situation. What does Trouba bring? What do you already have? Do you need what he brings? How much are you willing to commit to that position? Etc. Then you negotiate. If there is no fit, then no deal will get done. Trouba would certainly have a number of offers to choose from. At some point he sees that getting his 1st or 2nd choice costs him too much and he signs elsewhere. Or one of his first 2 makes him an offer he likes. Either it happens or it doesn't. We are just talking possibilities.

I think Trouba's best chance of getting where he wants is by trade. And at that I really can't assess his chances very well. It is very speculative. My first reaction is that Fla would not want the cap hit of Ekblad and Trouba both on the right side. That also figures into the UFA consideration. So a Trouba for Ekblad trade would get him to Fla. Jets would need to add. Even if the value was a 100% match Fla would need some reason to move. They don't need to do anything. So the question is, how much of an add would Fla require and would Jets be willing to make that add? If we could add some spare parts or prospects who don't appear to fit our needs it could be good for both sides. Maybe Fla saves a little money in the process.

I like our fit trading with TBL better but it is still speculative. I think they have a greater need for what we would be selling but Yzerman may not see it that way.

So how Overhardt and Trouba assess the situation is something we can't know. Certainly KO will think through all these scenarios and advise Trouba accordingly. Maybe he tells Trouba to sign for 6 years and ask Chevy to find a trade in a more desirable location. That leaves neither side up against it so maybe improves the chances of getting a fair trade.

The long and the short of it is that all parties have cards to play. In the end, I'm pretty sure Trouba has a preference for Fla. Whether he can get what he wants remains to be seen.

He doesn't necessarily have to sabotage his career at all. He may have to go through some pain and take a risk of sabotaging his career.

It also isn't necessarily his career vs hers. It may simply be how much is he willing to do to be spending his time with her, regardless of her career. Or what, if anything is she willing to sacrifice to be with him.

I would be equally happy keeping him or trading him - as long as we get good value. That is, value that fits our roster needs.

I'd be very wary of Ekblad and his history of concussions.

Trouba could try to force his way to UFA but if so he's going to have to live with uncertainty for two more years (could be traded to a crappy team) and then hope he can get a dream deal where he wants. Or maybe he looks at the hockey misery of O'Reilly, another of Overhardt's clients, and wonders if he might not be better optimizing his career in a stable, winning situation for the next several years.

I don't know about Ekblad's concussion history being so bad. I thought it was just one. Not that one is good but so many players nowadays have 1 or 2. IIRC his was a fairly serious one but he seems to have recovered OK, no?

People always bring up the risks involved in going UFA. Yes, they exist. Yes, they are substantial. And yes, every year lots of players do it - in spite of those risks.

Edit: I see people are complaining about this OT discussion. No mod has stepped in to move it. I guess we should do it ourselves.

Like I said before, Trouba and Overhardt will consider all these factors. It will come down to how Trouba chooses to weight the various parts of the picture.

ROR was traded to a bad team - after signing for at least 1 mil/yr more than he should have gotten. That is always a risk for players without protection clauses.

I've copied the last several posts on this topic from the prospects thread to here.

The discussion probably dies here now anyway but I will have tried.

 

[ps241]

Well done Mort!!