Speculation: Should Army trade away Jake Allen @ off-season?

[Majorityof1]

Only problem Allen can be good goaltender 1 or 2 games of 82 games.

He's listed as GAA 32th in NHL. Allen is currently worst starting goaltender in the league.

NHL.com - Stats

I'm not saying Allen had a great year; however, that is just wrong Somewhere along the line, the label "worst starting goaltender in the league" got started and it just is factually untrue. Price, Anderson, and Darling all had 43 or more games and all had worse Save % and GAA. If you go strictly by GAA, there are 12 goalies with 43 or more starts worse than Allen. Some of those teams are looking for an upgrade and Allen's season is an outlier in terms of career numbers. We are all on the hate Allen bandwagon, but there are absolutely GMs who would take a chance on him and there are absolutely teams for whom he'd be an upgrade. He doesn't fit our team, but he'd be a much better fit on a few teams that badly need a goalie and have for years.

Also keep in mind, this is me defending him. I dislike him almost as much as Ranksu.

 

[Brian39]

The one is Raanta, but he is far from a proven #1. **** no to Price. Blues have found value in free agency in net, Im fine with bringing back Hutton for another two years, and Husso is waiting in the wings for injury/poor play. Use the savings to improve the team in front of them.

Raanta signed a 3 year extension with the Coyotes about a couple weeks ago, so he is off the market. He was a stud for them after he got healthy this season, so I don't see any way they trade him. IMO, the only question mark with him is whether he can stay healthy. He put up a .930 over 46 starts this year and was playing a starter's workload when healthy.

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

Raanta signed a 3 year extension with the Coyotes about a couple weeks ago, so he is off the market. He was a stud for them after he got healthy this season, so I don't see any way they trade him. IMO, the only question mark with him is whether he can stay healthy. He put up a .930 over 46 starts this year and was playing a starter's workload when healthy.

If he's with the Coyotes, he's definitely on the market

 

[Majorityof1]

If he's with the Coyotes, he's definitely on the market

Why do you say that? He just signed a team-friendly deal a couple weeks ago without even testing free-agency. If he hit the market he would have made more. If the Coyotes trade him, their GM can kiss good-bye his ability to sign any sought after free agent. Further, the Coyotes don't have a track-record of selling off talent. In fact, the opposite. They have retained OEL and traded futures for Hjalmarsson and Stepan (with Raanta) when they maybe should have shed vets and tanked.

 

[larueskee]

Allen is damaged goods now. No team would be interested in taking him. Not even a beer league. Last in stats for 2 years now for wonder boy.

 

[Shwabeal]

Allen is damaged goods now. No team would be interested in taking him. Not even a beer league. Last in stats for 2 years now for wonder boy.

2016-2017
20th in GAA amongst goalies with 20+ starts (50 different goalies)
28th in SV%
9th in Wins
11th in GP

2017-2018
30th in GAA
45th in SV%
14th in Wins
14th in GP

Not good, but definitely not "last in stats." Actually not last in a single one and only close in one of them...

 

[Majorityof1]

Allen is damaged goods now. No team would be interested in taking him. Not even a beer league. Last in stats for 2 years now for wonder boy.

Again, wrong. Read the post right above you. He wasn't last in stats this year. and last year he wasn't close. He was 11th in GAA and 15th in Save % last year amongst 29 goalies with >= 42 games. Over the past two years combined he is 10th in GAA and 26th in Save % amongst the 31 goalies with 82 or more games. So not great stats, but not the worst in any of the usual goalie stats, no matter how you slice it. What stats was he last in? Last in what sample size?

 

[EastonBlues22]

2016-2017
20th in GAA amongst goalies with 20+ starts (50 different goalies)
28th in SV%
9th in Wins
11th in GP

2017-2018
30th in GAA
45th in SV%
14th in Wins
14th in GP

Not good, but definitely not "last in stats." Actually not last in a single one and only close in one of them...

Unfortunately, the one he was close in is quite arguably the most important one from a goalie evaluation standpoint.

I agree the "worst starter in the league" rhetoric is overstating the case, but the sum total of Allen's performances since being handed the starting job have generally eroded any faith that one might have in him being a good starter. Huge consistency swings last year, and a giant ebb in performance for pretty much the entirety of this year, with major technical issues on display during both seasons...you just can't trust him at this point to be what you need him to be.

That's a real shame, and it's going to handcuff the Blues a bit in how they develop Husso. If Allen had built upon the end of last season and posted a top 10 year this year, I'd say there was a pretty decent chance that Husso could win the backup role out of camp. Now though? I don't think the Blues would feel comfortable taking that risk. They're going to feel pressure to find a more proven commodity to pair with Allen, and anytime you're pressured and backed into a corner, you are at a higher risk of making a mistake.

 

[Shwabeal]

Unfortunately, the one he was close in is quite arguably the most important one from a goalie evaluation standpoint.

I agree the "worst starter in the league" rhetoric is overstating the case, but the sum total of Allen's performances since being handed the starting job have generally eroded any faith that one might have in him being a good starter. Huge consistency swings last year, and a giant ebb in performance for pretty much the entirety of this year, with major technical issues on display during both seasons...you just can't trust him at this point to be what you need him to be.

That's a real shame, and it's going to handcuff the Blues a bit in how they develop Husso. If Allen had built upon the end of last season and posted a top 10 year this year, I'd say there was a pretty decent chance that Husso could win the backup role out of camp. Now though? I don't think the Blues would feel comfortable taking that risk. They're going to feel pressure to find a more proven commodity to pair with Allen, and anytime you're pressured and backed into a corner, you are at a higher risk of making a mistake.

Oh I completely agree. I'm the farthest thing from an Allen supporter. He has royally screwed this team's goaltending situation. I just wanted to point out how inaccurate that statement that was made was. As I said in the post, his stats are by no means good, but he's been a decent bit above "worst goalie in stats in the league for the past two years." Plenty of goalies that are better than him or are perceived to be better than him have had similarly rough years. Even with his struggles, the team has found a way to be competitive and it shows just how close this team could be if they got consistent, steady goaltending, which we're not going to get from Allen unfortunately.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Only problem Allen can be good goaltender 1 or 2 games of 82 games.

He's listed as GAA 32th in NHL. Allen is currently worst starting goaltender in the league.

NHL.com - Stats

Wow, the guy who feels the need to label people has responded to me!

Only one or two games? I’m curious how he was the best goalie in the NHL from the All-Star break on during the 2016-2017 season if he can only be good for a game or two.

When it comes to claiming Allen is the worst starter in the league, you should probably watch some NHL games instead of just googling stats.

 

[Xerloris]

I hate Allen, he's far to inconsistent for me to ever have actual faith in him. With that said, if our offense had even been half ass competent this year than Allen would have had a pretty decent season.

 

[Ranksu]

Jeesus if you guys still can't see I've some 'Laplands adds' , with some grain of salt. But I love how emotional community we've here.


* * *

That's a real shame, and it's going to handcuff the Blues a bit in how they develop Husso. If Allen had built upon the end of last season and posted a top 10 year this year, I'd say there was a pretty decent chance that Husso could win the backup role out of camp. Now though? I don't think the Blues would feel comfortable taking that risk. They're going to feel pressure to find a more proven commodity to pair with Allen, and anytime you're pressured and backed into a corner, you are at a higher risk of making a mistake.

EB22 quote make me grin I didn't even think about this Allen sucking heavily could diminish Husso's icetime in NHL level or eventually shut him out of back-up role.

 

[Ranksu]

transfered in to correct thread.

This is nonsense.

We are all disappointed with the past season, but you have given in to despair.

A healthy Robbie Fabbri and a more consistent Jake
Allen would have made a lot of difference in the team's record.

Well it takes only that if Allen doesn't be NHL worst starting goaltender we would be currently at playoff series against Preds.

Brodeur needs to babysit with Allen full of off-season, no more baby soft time for him. If Allen can't look himself to mirror and really go down earth and not put stare at other players like what he did in to Parayko we've really headache player in our team.

Maybe Allen have bad chemistry with some players, locker room cancer.

I'll add .gif so people don't hurt their butt about my post.

 

[TruBlu]

I think now that we are a little removed from the Chicago game, people are starting to focus more on the reality that the team overall was just an average team this year. Allen, although near the top of the list and certainly worthy of scrutiny, was not the biggest problem this team had this year. A team can't score in the bottom fourth of the league and expect to get into the playoffs. As many games as Allen lost, you can point to three times as many games where (name whichever player) failed to capitalize on goals, special teams gave up an odd man break, gave up a shorthanded goal, etc. Allen has to become more consistent, but this team was not easy at all on their goalies this season. Almost one quarter of the games played this season ended up with one goal or less. You can't give your goalie that kind of goal support and expect success.

 

[carter333167]

Trade him if you can do so without giving up any significant assets.

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

Why do you say that? He just signed a team-friendly deal a couple weeks ago without even testing free-agency. If he hit the market he would have made more. If the Coyotes trade him, their GM can kiss good-bye his ability to sign any sought after free agent. Further, the Coyotes don't have a track-record of selling off talent. In fact, the opposite. They have retained OEL and traded futures for Hjalmarsson and Stepan (with Raanta) when they maybe should have shed vets and tanked.

Because the Coyotes are in a constant state of flux. They are continually bad. Rebuilding year after year. Gretzky couldn't fix them. A team friendly deal without a NMC means he his trade bait for this go nowhere team. They need to move out of Glendale ASAP.

LOL. Sign a sought after UFA. What sought after UFA have they ever signed and which do you see happening in 2018-2019?

Their GM is safe because fans in Phoenix are clueless IMO. Ever been to a game there?

 

[ezcreepin]

2016-2017
20th in GAA amongst goalies with 20+ starts (50 different goalies)
28th in SV%
9th in Wins
11th in GP

2017-2018
30th in GAA
45th in SV%
14th in Wins
14th in GP

Not good, but definitely not "last in stats." Actually not last in a single one and only close in one of them...

Well if we want to look at it objectively, he may not be last in stats, but he has been fortunate to be playing on a team like the Blues who have played pretty damn good defense since 2011, and considering all of that, I'd argue that traded to a team like Montreal, Carolina, or Ottawa (some names brought of from these teams), he would play just as bad if not more worse than he has this year. Now I'm not saying that he is a terrible goalie, but I don't believe he is a good starting goalie, regardless of what his contract says. There are enough stats as well as the eye test that prove this, ie. his body language and the way he positions himself in certain situations keeps him from being a good enough goalie to start 55-60 games. He is capable of handling 35-40 games and playing average to decent goaltending, but at this point I have more confidence in Husso, and I haven't even see him against good competition. If the opportunity presents itself, it would benefit the Blues to trade Allen. If you have a different opinion, I'd honestly like to hear it.

Edit: Just read your reply to Easton, whoops...

 

[TheDizee]

No

 

[Brockon]

If he's with the Coyotes, he's definitely on the market

Despite finishing last in the Pacific with a 29-41-12 record for 70 points this season, you realize Arizona was 20-14-7 after January 1st? That's right 67.1% of their season point total came in the last 41 games of the season.

Raanta in 46 GP went 21-16-6 with 2.24 GAA and 93.0 SA%. He just signed a 3 year extension - he wants to be in Arizona, he's not available unless Chayka gets a stupid overpayment. If the Coyotes hadn't gone 9-27-5 in the first 41 games of the season which Raanta was injured for a good portion of, they probably come close to the playoffs.

 

[TruBlu]

Well if we want to look at it objectively, he may not be last in stats, but he has been fortunate to be playing on a team like the Blues who have played pretty damn good defense since 2011, and considering all of that, I'd argue that traded to a team like Montreal, Carolina, or Ottawa (some names brought of from these teams), he would play just as bad if not more worse than he has this year. Now I'm not saying that he is a terrible goalie, but I don't believe he is a good starting goalie, regardless of what his contract says. There are enough stats as well as the eye test that prove this, ie. his body language and the way he positions himself in certain situations keeps him from being a good enough goalie to start 55-60 games. He is capable of handling 35-40 games and playing average to decent goaltending, but at this point I have more confidence in Husso, and I haven't even see him against good competition. If the opportunity presents itself, it would benefit the Blues to trade Allen. If you have a different opinion, I'd honestly like to hear it.

Edit: Just read your reply to Easton, whoops...

You've never seen him play better than average to decent goaltending? The guy was second star for the league for an entire month. He also had the best stats of any goalie in the league the last three months of the year last year, and was second star for the week not even a few weeks ago. Jake's biggest problem is his inconsistency, but show me a goalie in the league that has been around for any amount of time that doesn't have years that are way out of character. Take a look at Holtby's numbers this year. He's a Vezina winner. Jake has not been around long enough for me to write the book on his career, especially after the team makeup that was put in front of him this year. He's got problems that will have to be fixed, and soon, if he wants to stay a starter in this league, but pointing to his faults without giving credit for the really, really good stuff he's done is disingenuous. As far as Husso goes, I'm hopeful he turns into what we think he can become, but he's proven nothing yet. I'm interested to know why you have so much confidence in a guy who has not even played at the NHL level yet, but you've sold Allen down the river already?

 

[TK 421]

You've never seen him play better than average to decent goaltending? The guy was second star for the league for an entire month. He also had the best stats of any goalie in the league the last three months of the year last year, and was second star for the week not even a few weeks ago. Jake's biggest problem is his inconsistency, but show me a goalie in the league that has been around for any amount of time that doesn't have years that are way out of character. Take a look at Holtby's numbers this year. He's a Vezina winner. Jake has not been around long enough for me to write the book on his career, especially after the team makeup that was put in front of him this year. He's got problems that will have to be fixed, and soon, if he wants to stay a starter in this league, but pointing to his faults without giving credit for the really, really good stuff he's done is disingenuous. As far as Husso goes, I'm hopeful he turns into what we think he can become, but he's proven nothing yet. I'm interested to know why you have so much confidence in a guy who has not even played at the NHL level yet, but you've sold Allen down the river already?

Obviously not who you quoted but I'd like to give a response to your question.

Allen is 28 and still isn't strong positionally as a tender. I have 0 faith in this guy but can acknowledge that he clearly has potential if he were to clean that up.

As far as Husso goes it's kind of hard to prove it if you don't even get games at the NHL level. He's proven he can post top #'s as an AHL starter. He's proven he can thrive in international tournaments(and did so as a really young player it's worth noting). He also plays a style similar to 2 recent Blues tenders that have posted career #'s with the Blues. I'd say that's more than enough to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him backup Allen next year. What could it hurt really? If Allen sucks then your young potential starter gets a shot. If he can't hack it for whatever reason a vet tender can be acquired really cheap so I'm not seeing much risk here. Husso shouldn't be held back because Jake's fundamentals suck at 28 years old.

 

[TruBlu]

Obviously not who you quoted but I'd like to give a response to your question.

Allen is 28 and still isn't strong positionally as a tender. I have 0 faith in this guy but can acknowledge that he clearly has potential if he were to clean that up.

As far as Husso goes it's kind of hard to prove it if you don't even get games at the NHL level. He's proven he can post top #'s as an AHL starter. He's proven he can thrive in international tournaments(and did so as a really young player it's worth noting). He also plays a style similar to 2 recent Blues tenders that have posted career #'s with the Blues. I'd say that's more than enough to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him backup Allen next year. What could it hurt really? If Allen sucks then your young potential starter gets a shot. If he can't hack it for whatever reason a vet tender can be acquired really cheap so I'm not seeing much risk here. Husso shouldn't be held back because Jake's fundamentals suck at 28 years old.

My point about Allen was that it is not like he's a mediocre goalie all of the time and then drops into a chasm. My point is that he has extreme highs and extreme lows. He has the ability become a top goalie in the league if he puts it together and figures it out. History is full of goaltenders who were his age that suddenly figured it out. I'm not advocating we keep him if a situation comes up where we have an opportunity to better the team, I just don't think there is anyone that wouldn't break the bank and I'm not willing to set the club back to take a chance on it when we are in a position to blow our window wide open again.

As for Husso. I'm flat out pulling for the guy. I'm also not saying not to give the guy a chance. I'm simply saying there are a lot of people who are absolutely certain he's going to be the next elite goaltender, and I prefer not to jump on that boat until I see proof for at least a season at the NHL level. I will say I disagree with you on there not being much risk involved, though, as moving Husso up before he is ready could set him back developmentally.

 

[ezcreepin]

You've never seen him play better than average to decent goaltending? The guy was second star for the league for an entire month. He also had the best stats of any goalie in the league the last three months of the year last year, and was second star for the week not even a few weeks ago. Jake's biggest problem is his inconsistency, but show me a goalie in the league that has been around for any amount of time that doesn't have years that are way out of character. Take a look at Holtby's numbers this year. He's a Vezina winner. Jake has not been around long enough for me to write the book on his career, especially after the team makeup that was put in front of him this year. He's got problems that will have to be fixed, and soon, if he wants to stay a starter in this league, but pointing to his faults without giving credit for the really, really good stuff he's done is disingenuous. As far as Husso goes, I'm hopeful he turns into what we think he can become, but he's proven nothing yet. I'm interested to know why you have so much confidence in a guy who has not even played at the NHL level yet, but you've sold Allen down the river already?

My point was that this team has played really good defense for almost a decade now, and this year is no different. They were top 6 in the league in goals against, as well as top 3 in shots against. Their special teams were oddly horrendous this year, but they were able to give their goalies help when need be defensively. My comment about Allen was directed towards his stats, and that he likely would end up as a decent goalie in less games played as opposed to being one of the worse starters in the league (in most meaningful categories) with more games played. Can he play great? Sure, and arguably any goalie can go on a run (Hammond), but as you said yourself, he isn't consistent enough to be that guy. The goalies that you're talking about that have outlier years are usually in the top 10 in goalie stats and have a track record of being great more often than not. Allen is that that kind of goalie. As far as Holtby goes, someone mentioned their goaltending coach messing around with him, though I dont really know how much of a bearing that has on his play this year, but hes likely safe for a bounce back year next season. Jake has had one season of above average numbers (the conference final team), and even last year with his amazing run, he ended up with a .915 sv% and 2.42 gaa, but did finish with 33 wins. But in any other category, he was just average, and yes, we all saw what he did last year against Minnesota, but for the majority of his career, he hasnt been that goalie. I hope that made sense?

 

[67Blues]

Allen's goaltending issues are significantly magnified by the team's lack of offense. Hopefully they can address that in the offseason, get some players who had down years back to norm, as well as hit on a couple of rookies. Allen did have some poor games, but he also lost a lot of 1 goal games where the Blues were either shut out or scored one late goal to ruin a shut out.

 

[TruBlu]

My point was that this team has played really good defense for almost a decade now, and this year is no different. They were top 6 in the league in goals against, as well as top 3 in shots against. Their special teams were oddly horrendous this year, but they were able to give their goalies help when need be defensively. My comment about Allen was directed towards his stats, and that he likely would end up as a decent goalie in less games played as opposed to being one of the worse starters in the league (in most meaningful categories) with more games played. Can he play great? Sure, and arguably any goalie can go on a run (Hammond), but as you said yourself, he isn't consistent enough to be that guy. The goalies that you're talking about that have outlier years are usually in the top 10 in goalie stats and have a track record of being great more often than not. Allen is that that kind of goalie. As far as Holtby goes, someone mentioned their goaltending coach messing around with him, though I dont really know how much of a bearing that has on his play this year, but hes likely safe for a bounce back year next season. Jake has had one season of above average numbers (the conference final team), and even last year with his amazing run, he ended up with a .915 sv% and 2.42 gaa, but did finish with 33 wins. But in any other category, he was just average, and yes, we all saw what he did last year against Minnesota, but for the majority of his career, he hasnt been that goalie. I hope that made sense?

I disagree that the defense was as good as previous years this year. I think the defense, as a whole, was above average, but also suffered from some inconsistency that strayed from what we've become accustomed to over the years. Much of that was due to the abundance of injuries and a complete devolving of our special teams. You brought up being top 6 in the league in goals against. My issue with that is that the goalie is blamed when more goals go in, but the the praise goes to the defense whey they don't. The reality is that the truth is somewhere in between. I'm not trying to troll you on this issue, I'm just trying to have a real a real conversation on the thread about the problems and how to fix them, instead of just the "jake sucks! These numbers prove it!" commentary that is often displayed. In my personal opinion, almost every aspect of the club took a hit this year. Certainly the offense and goaltending, definitely the special teams, and to a lesser extent the defense. I think our record would have been bottom ten in the league without the acquisition of Schenn.