Sharks roster discussion

[TheWayToRefJose]

Gackle wrote another article pointing to Ryan's likely reassignment to the Barracuda. Something I agree with him will likely happen but then uses it as a reason to believe that he will be used to trade for scoring help up front. The reasoning is sound but it's ignoring the fact that teams have other options in order to get that scoring help where they don't have to move Ryan to get it. Gackle doesn't get that scoring help can come from other assets the Sharks have although I agree that it won't be players like Martin or Boedker. But it's not an either/or thing. Jeremy Roy seems like the kind of prospect that the Sharks could stand to lose to try and get scoring help up front that teams would probably have interest in and would value. I wouldn't do it simply because I don't think the team should invest in this team to try and get as far as they can this year but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

If goldobin, who had by all means been progressing, only returned Hansen, I'd imagine it's in SJs interest to hang onto Roy considering he hasn't really played in 2 years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If goldobin, who had by all means been progressing, only returned Hansen, I'd imagine it's in SJs interest to hang onto Roy considering he hasn't really played in 2 years.

That depends on your perspective really. If you believe the people within the organization when they talk, they didn't see Goldobin as progressing. The reality is that they were much harder on Goldobin as a prospect than they were pretty much anyone else in this regime's history. The pick itself was against their norm and there were a lot of indications that they were regretting it pretty quickly. They've never given such indications about Roy so they probably value him more than they did Goldobin at the time. And it's difficult to make value judgment comparisons with a forward prospect and a defenseman prospect but Roy has done well stepping into the AHL game thus far given his circumstances. I think he still has the kind of value needed to be the kind of prospect that could pull in a decently valued rental like an Evander Kane if you throw in a 1st round draft pick.

I could see the team holding on to Roy and they should because they shouldn't be investing in rentals this year but if a young forward with cost control or a lengthy contract is available, Roy is the kind of prospect that has some value in a trade like that. He won't be the only thing in such a trade but he'd certainly be one.

 

[Mattb124]

Until Roy can show he can stay healthy, we wont get value for him.

I see something more along the lines of a 1st and a roster player w/ max retention?) and/or prospect is the most likely path for scoring help.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

That depends on your perspective really. If you believe the people within the organization when they talk, they didn't see Goldobin as progressing. The reality is that they were much harder on Goldobin as a prospect than they were pretty much anyone else in this regime's history. The pick itself was against their norm and there were a lot of indications that they were regretting it pretty quickly. They've never given such indications about Roy so they probably value him more than they did Goldobin at the time. And it's difficult to make value judgment comparisons with a forward prospect and a defenseman prospect but Roy has done well stepping into the AHL game thus far given his circumstances. I think he still has the kind of value needed to be the kind of prospect that could pull in a decently valued rental like an Evander Kane if you throw in a 1st round draft pick.

I could see the team holding on to Roy and they should because they shouldn't be investing in rentals this year but if a young forward with cost control or a lengthy contract is available, Roy is the kind of prospect that has some value in a trade like that. He won't be the only thing in such a trade but he'd certainly be one.

Even though SJ didn't value Goldy doesn't mean other organizations didn't and the best offer was Hansen, or DW would've took something else. Either way, a young forward who lit up juniors and a ppg in the A has more value than a guy who essentially hasn't played since he was drafted. Right now, I'd be willing to bet Oreagan has more value than Roy, which isn't saying much. It would be much smarter to keep Roy and hope he is who we thought he was instead of selling extremely low on him.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Until Roy can show he can stay healthy, we wont get value for him.

I see something more along the lines of a 1st and a roster player w/ max retention?) and/or prospect is the most likely path for scoring help.

When it comes to prospects, I think you're being a little too strict on that perspective. Prospects aren't really looked at when it comes to their health to that degree of importance when they evaluate them as a possible acquisition. They'll see skill and they take chances when that's the type of trade they look to make for a rental.

Even though SJ didn't value Goldy doesn't mean other organizations didn't and the best offer was Hansen, or DW would've took something else. Either way, a young forward who lit up juniors and a ppg in the A has more value than a guy who essentially hasn't played since he was drafted. Right now, I'd be willing to bet Oreagan has more value than Roy, which isn't saying much. It would be much smarter to keep Roy and hope he is who we thought he was instead of selling extremely low on him.

That assumes that everyone knew that Goldobin was available and that it was about trading Goldobin rather than DW trading for and targeting Hansen. Teams weren't lining up making offers for Goldobin. DW most likely lined up to make an offer for Hansen and put that together. And Goldobin wasn't a PPG player in the AHL and Roy has played since he was drafted and performed.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

When it comes to prospects, I think you're being a little too strict on that perspective. Prospects aren't really looked at when it comes to their health to that degree of importance when they evaluate them as a possible acquisition. They'll see skill and they take chances when that's the type of trade they look to make for a rental.



That assumes that everyone knew that Goldobin was available and that it was about trading Goldobin rather than DW trading for and targeting Hansen. Teams weren't lining up making offers for Goldobin. DW most likely lined up to make an offer for Hansen and put that together. And Goldobin wasn't a PPG player in the AHL and Roy has played since he was drafted and performed.

Sorry, 0.83 PPG in the AHL. I'm willing to bet GMs are more excited by a guy doing good in the AHL than a guy who blew out his knee and has only played 25 games in the past year and some change and didn't exactly have a great draft +1 year. Roy probably wouldn't get us what it cost us to move up to get him. No point in trading him.


As far as the injuries not being a big deal, that's not the case. Skill is definitely the major concern, but we haven't really gotten to see Roy's skills because he's been hurt.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Goldobin was dominating the AHL. That’s is unquestionable. How the Sharks or other teams viewed him isn’t something we know for sure, but he was absolutely dominating the AHL.

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Woof... so are there no realistic moves DW can make or is he going to sit on his hands all season til TDL? If he's gonna do that, at least he knows to tank

 

[hohosaregood]

Woof... so are there no realistic moves DW can make or is he going to sit on his hands all season til TDL? If he's gonna do that, at least he knows to tank

We basically have no trade chips cuz we draft bad and our trade chips are either old or have long contracts.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Sorry, 0.83 PPG in the AHL. I'm willing to bet GMs are more excited by a guy doing good in the AHL than a guy who blew out his knee and has only played 25 games in the past year and some change and didn't exactly have a great draft +1 year. Roy probably wouldn't get us what it cost us to move up to get him. No point in trading him.


As far as the injuries not being a big deal, that's not the case. Skill is definitely the major concern, but we haven't really gotten to see Roy's skills because he's been hurt.

You completely ignored my post but again he's playing at a 0.5 ppg pace coming off these injuries. To pretend like that's not going to be seen as valuable and the fact that a d-man inherently will have more value on the whole than a winger is also being ignored here.

Goldobin was dominating the AHL. That’s is unquestionable. How the Sharks or other teams viewed him isn’t something we know for sure, but he was absolutely dominating the AHL.

Goldobin was productive in the AHL. Dominant is absolutely questionable considering he was not a 200 foot player at that level as well.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Goldobin was productive in the AHL. Dominant is absolutely questionable considering he was not a 200 foot player at that level as well.

Except Goldobin’s defense was fine at the AHL level. He was dominant, period. He was the best forward on the best AHL team in the league and he made something happen every shift. I understand people’s questions about his NHL game but there was nothing to question about his AHL game.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

You completely ignored my post but again he's playing at a 0.5 ppg pace coming off these injuries. To pretend like that's not going to be seen as valuable and the fact that a d-man inherently will have more value on the whole than a winger is also being ignored here.



Goldobin was productive in the AHL. Dominant is absolutely questionable considering he was not a 200 foot player at that level as well.

For a whopping 15 games?
That's like saying Ryan has the same value as a proven 24 year old top 4 D man because he's done it for a quarter of a season. Call Winnipeg and tell them Ryan for Trouba straight up, because "we can see Ryan's skill."

I like Roy and I'm excited to see what he does, but after a major knee injury and a disappointing draft +1 year, 15 games doesn't suddenly make him a hot commodity. He's in the same position as Ryan and Heed. He'll have more value to us than we'd get from trading him.

He's the best shot we have at a potential top pairing d man, I'd rather not trade him for someone like Hansen.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Jeremy Roy has more trade value and Mirco Mueller had more trade value than Joakim Ryan or Tim Heed. Pedigree dictates trade value more than actual performance when the sample sizes are this small.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

Jeremy Roy has more trade value and Mirco Mueller had more trade value than Joakim Ryan or Tim Heed. Pedigree dictates trade value more than actual performance when the sample sizes are this small.

At absolute best, Roy might fetch a late first, more probably a second. Sooooo, If you want to trade Roy and someone like OReagan for a rental like Hanzal (went for a first and a decent prospect, similar trades happen every year), that really doesn't do a whole lot to make a big difference in our cup chances, go for it.

It's going to have to be Roy + a high pick or prospect for a mediocre piece that won't suddenly make us a serious contender. To get anyone that would is going to require finding a team interested in a package of Roy, a first, and a good roster player and I can't imagine there's too many teams or players to target where that would work.
Something like Roy + First + Donskoi for Panarin or a similar player. Not worth the cost of upgrading.

Unless it's for Tavares or a player of that caliber, there's no point.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Except Goldobin’s defense was fine at the AHL level. He was dominant, period. He was the best forward on the best AHL team in the league and he made something happen every shift. I understand people’s questions about his NHL game but there was nothing to question about his AHL game.

I have a much less liberal interpretation of the word dominant than you do obviously but if his defensive ability is merely fine and he wasn't a PPG player at the AHL level, he's not dominant to me. So no, not dominant period.

For a whopping 15 games?
That's like saying Ryan has the same value as a proven 24 year old top 4 D man because he's done it for a quarter of a season. Call Winnipeg and tell them Ryan for Trouba straight up, because "we can see Ryan's skill."

I like Roy and I'm excited to see what he does, but after a major knee injury and a disappointing draft +1 year, 15 games doesn't suddenly make him a hot commodity. He's in the same position as Ryan and Heed. He'll have more value to us than we'd get from trading him.

He's the best shot we have at a potential top pairing d man, I'd rather not trade him for someone like Hansen.

No, it's not like that at all actually. Stop trying to make straw men. Roy is younger than what Goldobin was and the organization sees him as more valuable than Goldobin was and if you choose to ignore that very obvious reality then you can't have an honest discussion about this. I'm not saying he's a hot commodity. That's just you putting words in my mouth. I'm simply stating that the Sharks likely value Roy more than they did Goldobin and that he's the type of prospect that will have some value in a trade for scoring help

 

[OrrNumber4]

Goldobin was dominating the AHL. That’s is unquestionable. How the Sharks or other teams viewed him isn’t something we know for sure, but he was absolutely dominating the AHL.

Oh, come on. He wasn't even one of the top (per-game) scorers in the league.

 

[do0glas]

Love that hertl is third in points on the team. But hes only on pace for 45. I out a lot of that on deboer but he neefs to take his chances

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

I have a much less liberal interpretation of the word dominant than you do obviously but if his defensive ability is merely fine and he wasn't a PPG player at the AHL level, he's not dominant to me. So no, not dominant period.



No, it's not like that at all actually. Stop trying to make straw men. Roy is younger than what Goldobin was and the organization sees him as more valuable than Goldobin was and if you choose to ignore that very obvious reality then you can't have an honest discussion about this. I'm not saying he's a hot commodity. That's just you putting words in my mouth. I'm simply stating that the Sharks likely value Roy more than they did Goldobin and that he's the type of prospect that will have some value in a trade for scoring help

I'm not arguing SJ values Roy more than Goldobin. I'm saying he doesn't have as much trade value as he does potential and if you choose to ignore that very obvious reality then you can't have an honest discussion about this.

 

[Herschel]

When Donskoi comes back and assuming he is playing at a similar level, what are your thoughts on swapping Meier and Hertl?
With Pavelski playing like he is I think that line needs more help then Couture's does and Hertl bring more to the table than Meier but at the same time Meier has shown a lot of the traits that should be successful with Couture and Donskoi

 

[Juxtaposer]

Oh, come on. He wasn't even one of the top (per-game) scorers in the league.

Come on, you know full well points don’t tell the full story. O’Regan outscored Goldobin but you ask anyone who watched the Cuda (and who doesn’t have an irrational grudge against Nik) and they’ll tell you that Goldobin was far more impactful.

@Herschel I was actually thinking it might be time to reunite Hertl-Thornton-Pavelski while watching the game yesterday. Thornton's play has picked up and he deserves a real linemate.

 

[Herschel]

I was actually thinking it might be time to reunite Hertl-Thornton-Pavelski while watching the game yesterday. Thornton's play has picked up and he deserves a real linemate.

I have no doubt that reuniting that unit would lead to success. Hertl is playing very well and will create time and space for Thornton and with teams having to focus on them Pavelski is going to be able to slip into those soft spots and reap the benefits.

The question for me is Meier defensively ready for the top match ups? Lately, I have been impressed with his defensive play and while there will be a dropoff from Hertl it might not be all that much and I think offensively it gives the Couture line a second shooter. This all hinges on Donskoi returning at the same level he was playing at before.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not arguing SJ values Roy more than Goldobin. I'm saying he doesn't have as much trade value as he does potential and if you choose to ignore that very obvious reality then you can't have an honest discussion about this.

Having as much trade value as he does potential is irrelevant to the conversation of whether he can be a part of a trade to bring back scoring help. Guys like Roy are a part of deals like that quite frequently and I don't even know why, other than spite at this point, someone would think otherwise. And honestly, this response is basically you admitting to being unable to have an honest discussion about this.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I have no doubt that reuniting that unit would lead to success. Hertl is playing very well and will create time and space for Thornton and with teams having to focus on them Pavelski is going to be able to slip into those soft spots and reap the benefits.

The question for me is Meier defensively ready for the top match ups? Lately, I have been impressed with his defensive play and while there will be a dropoff from Hertl it might not be all that much and I think offensively it gives the Couture line a second shooter. This all hinges on Donskoi returning at the same level he was playing at before.

I’ve always thought Donskoi-Couture-Meier would be a good for stylistically. Anything is worth a try honestly. For all that we were clamoring (including me) to see Meier on the top line and on the PP, he’s done very little with that ice time. Maybe they aren’t a good fit.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

Having as much trade value as he does potential is irrelevant to the conversation of whether he can be a part of a trade to bring back scoring help. Guys like Roy are a part of deals like that quite frequently and I don't even know why, other than spite at this point, someone would think otherwise. And honestly, this response is basically you admitting to being unable to have an honest discussion about this.

No, that response is showing you how you're acting. This will be my last response to this because you're clearly not getting what I'm saying. I'm saying Roy at most would be a minor chip in getting someone useful or completely wasted on a 2-3 line tweener. Why would you waste his potential on a third liner? That's just terrible asset management.

 

[Barrie22]

Cap could go up 3 to 7 million next season according to bettman.