Sharks roster discussion

[TheWayToRefJose]

Id be ok with this, mainly just as a Hertl mentor. I think hes finally done this year, so dont really see much value added to the team by getting him, but with Jagr, you never know.

Yea, I mean for a 1 mil cap hit and probably very low cost to get him, why not? Worst case scenario he doesn't play much and gets to teach Hertl

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Vlasic has been bad this year, sure, but I have a feeling that he has some injury (or personal issues) that he is dealing with. His strength was his speed and mental game (defensive positioning). I dont think his speed has taken much of a hit but his defensive game has been off. I would not expect that age would have that much of an impact on his defensive skill.

I am actually very curious about who comes back next year. Ward and Hansen are gone. Boedker and Martin would be nice to get rid off. Especially Boedker even if we have to buy him out. Hertl and Tierney will most likely garner some kind of raises. Jumbo is the biggest question mark in my opinion. I have a feeling that DW is going to go all in with Tavares (assuming he hits UFA status). If we can move Boedker and Martin without buying either of them out, we would have hell of a lot of cap space available.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Vlasic has been bad this year, sure, but I have a feeling that he has some injury (or personal issues) that he is dealing with. His strength was his speed and mental game (defensive positioning). I dont think his speed has taken much of a hit but his defensive game has been off. I would not expect that age would have that much of an impact on his defensive skill.

I am actually very curious about who comes back next year. Ward and Hansen are gone. Boedker and Martin would be nice to get rid off. Especially Boedker even if we have to buy him out. Hertl and Tierney will most likely garner some kind of raises. Jumbo is the biggest question mark in my opinion. I have a feeling that DW is going to go all in with Tavares (assuming he hits UFA status). If we can move Boedker and Martin without buying either of them out, we would have hell of a lot of cap space available.

With Vlasic, I get the impression that he just doesn't have the same motivation during regular season games as he once had. I don't really see anything in his game physically that is missing. I think he'll turn it around the more we get closer to the playoffs. No matter what though the team won't trade him and likely couldn't even if they wanted to. He likely has the three team trade clause for this year and has a full NMC the next five seasons before going back to the three team clause. No matter what you think about why he is having another non-elite season this year, we are realistically only left with the option of waiting for him to turn it around. I think he will but I can understand those believing he won't.

As for the off-season, I'm in the I'll believe it when I see it mode for a lot of things. Tavares being one of them. Boedker and Martin being dealt or moved on from is another. I'm not terribly concerned about the cap space even when it comes to Tavares as much as I am the ability to add on top of that the things needed for this team to compete. They're still going to need another top six caliber winger with or without Tavares. A lot of teams could have a lot of cap space available this off-season. It could end up as high as 82 million and it's only going to get higher when Seattle comes into town and potentially the Coyotes move to a place like Houston. We're sitting on a lot of cap space now and likely aren't going to use it. I don't know if Hasso is all that interested in spending like that.

 

[rangerssharks414]

I was looking int he Trade forums, for some laughs, and I saw a thread that I didn't know how to respond to. It is one about the Sharks 5 most valuable assets (including contract length/value).

Who do you guys think would have the most value if the Sharks were to sell off their top 5 right now?

Couture
Burns
Hertl
Jones
?

 

[Lebanezer]

Vlasic has been bad this year, sure, but I have a feeling that he has some injury (or personal issues) that he is dealing with. His strength was his speed and mental game (defensive positioning). I dont think his speed has taken much of a hit but his defensive game has been off. I would not expect that age would have that much of an impact on his defensive skill.

I am actually very curious about who comes back next year. Ward and Hansen are gone. Boedker and Martin would be nice to get rid off. Especially Boedker even if we have to buy him out. Hertl and Tierney will most likely garner some kind of raises. Jumbo is the biggest question mark in my opinion. I have a feeling that DW is going to go all in with Tavares (assuming he hits UFA status). If we can move Boedker and Martin without buying either of them out, we would have hell of a lot of cap space available.

What's been concerning to me in regards to Vlasic is not physical at all. When I watch him, he looks like he's not engaged mentally. He looks lazy or blase about his pursuit of the puck, breakouts etc. Maybe that's related to his concussion, I don't know, but it doesn't seem the same as say Pavelski, who still looks engaged mentally, but just can't keep up. Burns also looks totally disinterested and lazy which is why he's getting smoked a lot. I am slightly worried now that both he and Vlasic have their giant contracts, they've lost some level of concentration.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Burns also looks totally disinterested and lazy which is why he's getting smoked a lot. I am slightly worried now that both he and Vlasic have their giant contracts, they've lost some level of concentration.

That is a solid observation which would be devastating if true. After all, these players are human and that would be basic human behaviour.

 

[Anomie2029]

He isn't the only player on the roster that is looking lazy or blase though.

Burns has been infuriating this year with his play. He doesn't skate the puck up ice with pace, or he looks for a stretch pass on the break out when there is close support that would be better options. Rather than put himself in better defensive position, he defaults to the starfish. In OT against the Sens, he didn't even do that properly.

What's been killing the Sharks this year has been the mental errors and laziness from senior players. Young players will make mistakes, but not through effort - only inexperience which will improve.

 

[hohosaregood]

Ultimately, Vlasic and Burns being bad is good for the Sharks.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

He isn't the only player on the roster that is looking lazy or blase though.

Burns has been infuriating this year with his play. He doesn't skate the puck up ice with pace, or he looks for a stretch pass on the break out when there is close support that would be better options. Rather than put himself in better defensive position, he defaults to the starfish. In OT against the Sens, he didn't even do that properly.

What's been killing the Sharks this year has been the mental errors and laziness from senior players. Young players will make mistakes, but not through effort - only inexperience which will improve.

In Burns' case, it seems like he's trying to make the perfect highlight reel pass a lot more this year. A lot of dusting off the puck and stick-handling to make the perfect play/shot/pass. Defensively, he's still too panicky in certain situations and the sliding on the ice to defend the two on one has been done too much by him. It works sometimes and I think people have figured him out and now he needs to adjust back. I think he believes he is better than he is and can do that stuff and it'll work. A fairly common attitude among athletes but it tends to pass as time goes on especially if it works against them enough.

 

[CrypTic]

I'm lazy and did not want to go back and compile Vlasic's CF% (or look at his zone starts, etc.) for early 2016-17 season. But I did find this on Fear The Fin

Player Rolling 25-game score, zone, and venue-adjusted average CF% (via Corsica Hockey)

The author was skeptical about Vlasic agreeing to play for Team Canada if "the type of injury that degraded his play so noticeably". I'm not so sure about that but, either way, it's pure speculation.

2016-17 Season in Review: Marc-Édouard Vlasic

My concern with the above is that it's a rolling 25 game average so that the games in the beginning are being propped up by games from the 2015-16 season. I.e., in game one, it's 24 games from the prior season and 1 game from the 2016-17 season. It's hard to say how well he was actually playing at the beginning of the 2016-17 season. Still, it looks like the injury affected his play last season and that he recovered somewhat (but was still down) near the end of the 2016-17 season.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I’ve always been opposed to contracts longer than three years for any player over 30 because of this exact reason. Vlasic and Burns know it’s their last big contract and that their performance going forward won’t affect their life earnings much. What do they have to play for?

 

[rt]

What would you all suggest could be added on either side to even this out:

To SJS:
Duclair
Rieder

To ARI:
Donskoi
Boedker

 

[Bleedred]

What would you all suggest could be added on either side to even this out:

To SJS:
Duclair
Rieder

To ARI:
Donskoi
Boedker

How many more years is Rieder signed to and at what price? He's been better than Boedker the last couple seasons, but is having a Boedker-like season this year. Perhaps he's fallen out of favor with Tanking Tocchet, so I won't read too much into this year, but Boedker was also pretty good before he came here. At least he was good for 40 points or so. Now he's only lucky to get 25.

If the team plans to compete next year again, you gotta get rid of Boedker, even if you go the buyout route. I know we've been over this before, but what is Boedker's buyout hit and term if he's bought out after this season?

And unrelated to that deal, I also really don't want another Hansen-type trade, where a player like that has another year or term remaining. Only a rental on an expiring contract or a pretty good player, even better than what Hansen was before this season. Can't wait until I never have to see him or Boedker again.

 

[rt]

Both are RFA after this season.

Rieder has been fine. Top PKer on a good PK. Production is good. Coach seems like to like him. Very smart defensive player who's an elite skater. Creates a ton of odd man rushes for himself with his brains and feet. His hands are way behind. Should still be good for 15ish goals anyway. Even his sub par hands can't keep him away from decent production, given how many chances he creates for himself. His agent is a pain in the butt though. Negotiations are always knock down, drag out.

Duclair has had issues with coaching. He's in pace for 20g again this season. He had a tough season last year. As a rookie the year before that he had 20g. I expect if the Sharks acquired him this week, he'd pot another 12g for you to this season. He's currently leading the Coyotes in G/60mins. It's actually quite reprehensible that they're even considering trading him, let alone having already pushed him to ask out. He's potentially a star player.

No question he's had a hard time getting along with coaches so far, though. Roy, Tippett and Tocchet have all had issues with him. He's not noticeably lazy in games. He's not noticeably bad defensively in games. His issues must have to do with practice/attitude/coachability and nothing to do with on-ice play. He's looked great in games so far this year.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What would you all suggest could be added on either side to even this out:

To SJS:
Duclair
Rieder

To ARI:
Donskoi
Boedker

That’s probably a fair offer. But Donskoi has been so good when healthy, I really want to see if he can get back to that.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

What would you all suggest could be added on either side to even this out:

To SJS:
Duclair
Rieder

To ARI:
Donskoi
Boedker

I think I would do that trade. Not sure if anything needs to be added on either side though.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

How many more years is Rieder signed to and at what price? He's been better than Boedker the last couple seasons, but is having a Boedker-like season this year. Perhaps he's fallen out of favor with Tanking Tocchet, so I won't read too much into this year, but Boedker was also pretty good before he came here. At least he was good for 40 points or so. Now he's only lucky to get 25.

If the team plans to compete next year again, you gotta get rid of Boedker, even if you go the buyout route. I know we've been over this before, but what is Boedker's buyout hit and term if he's bought out after this season?

And unrelated to that deal, I also really don't want another Hansen-type trade, where a player like that has another year or term remaining. Only a rental on an expiring contract or a pretty good player, even better than what Hansen was before this season. Can't wait until I never have to see him or Boedker again.

Both are RFA's as previously mentioned. It would be nice to move Boedker in a manner such as this but losing Donskoi would be rough and I don't know if I'd have it in me to make that trade. They really need his ability to stick-handle and make plays with the puck. And Rieder and Duclair are not those types of players. As for Boedker, if they bought him out this off-season, you're looking at a 2 mil cap hit the next two seasons and a 1 mil cap hit the two seasons after that. The buyout option is only there if the team plans on using all the cap space it would have available to them next year. Unless they actually manage to sign Tavares, I don't see the team reaching that. But I'd still try to trade him to a floor team that would see value in a cap hit higher than his salary even for just a 5th. I think it could be out there this off-season.

 

[rt]

I think I would do that trade. Not sure if anything needs to be added on either side though.

I'd say Duclair should be worth a lot in terms of assets because he's a very effective goal scorer who is cheap and young. Unfortunately the Coyotes have handled this as poorly as anyone could imagine and I think it limits his value.

Just to illustrate a point (in an overly simply and incorrect way), let's say Duclair is worth a mid 30s picks, Rieder a mid 40s pick, and Boedker is worth a negative mid 50s pick as a dump. Is this trade then "roughly" picks 35, 45, and 55 for Donskoi in terms of value? Seems a little rich for Donskoi.

Again, I'm not planting a flag in those values. That was illustrative. I guess what I mean in short hand is that if Boedker was a bad player with a cheap contract, this would be fair. I think because he's a bad player with a bad contract, the value favors the Sharks.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Both are RFA's as previously mentioned. It would be nice to move Boedker in a manner such as this but losing Donskoi would be rough and I don't know if I'd have it in me to make that trade. They really need his ability to stick-handle and make plays with the puck. And Rieder and Duclair are not those types of players. As for Boedker, if they bought him out this off-season, you're looking at a 2 mil cap hit the next two seasons and a 1 mil cap hit the two seasons after that. The buyout option is only there if the team plans on using all the cap space it would have available to them next year. Unless they actually manage to sign Tavares, I don't see the team reaching that. But I'd still try to trade him to a floor team that would see value in a cap hit higher than his salary even for just a 5th. I think it could be out there this off-season.

Yeah, I don’t think they’ll spend to the cap ceiling either. As bad has he’s been, I don’t think a buyout makes sense.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'd say Duclair should be worth a lot in terms of assets because he's a very effective goal scorer who is cheap and young. Unfortunately the Coyotes have handled this as poorly as anyone could imagine and I think it limits his value.

Just to illustrate a point (in an overly simply and incorrect way), let's say Duclair is worth a mid 30s picks, Rieder a mid 40s pick, and Boedker is worth a negative mid 50s pick as a dump. Is this trade then "roughly" picks 35, 45, and 55 for Donskoi in terms of value? Seems a little rich for Donskoi.

Again, I'm not planting a flag in those values. That was illustrative. I guess what I mean in short hand is that if Boedker was a bad player with a cheap contract, this would be fair. I think because he's a bad player with a bad contract, the value favors the Sharks.

I think Donskoi would be worth a mid to high 20's pick easily in my opinion. Maybe I overvalue him but he is amazing and is one of the few Sharks players with both creativity and skill. No argument about Boedker being a negative value though.

I am not sure if Sharks fans would agree or not but I would be ok with the same pieces as the original proposal except that we retain 50% of Boedkers salary.

 

[rt]

I think Donskoi would be worth a mid to high 20's pick easily in my opinion. Maybe I overvalue him but he is amazing and is one of the few Sharks players with both creativity and skill. No argument about Boedker being a negative value though.

I am not sure if Sharks fans would agree or not but I would be ok with the same pieces as the original proposal except that we retain 50% of Boedkers salary.

I would tend to agree on the valuation of Donskoi (at least using my flawed and arbitrary pick # value scale) but I would argue that the 35+45+55 > than 25. Neither here nor there, really. The short story is I'd want some other kind of concession. And your 50% on Boedker offer works for me on that front. Rieder+Duclair for Donskoi and a more appropriately priced Boedker is definitely right in the ballpark for me.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

I would tend to agree on the valuation of Donskoi (at least using my flawed and arbitrary pick # value scale) but I would argue that the 35+45+55 > than 25. Neither here nor there, really. The short story is I'd want some other kind of concession. And your 50% on Boedker offer works for me on that front. Rieder+Duclair for Donskoi and a more appropriately priced Boedker is definitely right in the ballpark for me.

I'd rather just keep Boedker and not trade Donskoi. I'd do Duclair for a B level prospect and a pick.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'd rather just keep Boedker and not trade Donskoi. I'd do Duclair for a B level prospect and a pick.

I'd rather not keep Boedker. Infact he is the one player I would buyout at the end of this year if we cannot get any trade partner. This deal seems ideal even though we do give up the best player in the deal, we still get back 2 really good players back.

Plus I am really hoping that all that extra cap space makes DW go really hard for Tavares.