Sharks Roster Discussion Part V

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'm very concerned about Pavs. I think that DW should trade him if he can.

I think that Hasso is mostly concerned about getting into the playoffs. It's a complete guess but that's how I've read the Sharks for years now. It's frustrating as a fan but it's not my money. I used to blame DW but at this point, I think it has to be Hasso.

I agree with you that DW is not likely to act to get us a top 1C until Jumbo leaves. I hope that Jumbo is now literally on his last leg, DW will act but I don't have faith in that. Looking at it that way, maybe the best thing for the Sharks would be for Jumbo and Patty to leave. It will force the org to make moves.

The way I look at the ask for 3 year contracts from those guys is that they are going to handicap my team. We are not going to win the cup with present Jumbo and Patty playing 'primary' roles. And I do not expect DW to go out and get their replacements while they are still active on the roster. Specially a replacement for Jumbo.

If, we had been able to draft a bonafide #1C to replace Jumbo, maybe having Jumbo in a smaller role would have worked. But as things stand, Jumbo is our #1C at the age of 38. That is a pretty bad position for our team to be in overall. This is not a slight on Jumbo, but more of a sad state of our teams lack in drafting blue-chip players. Couture and Hertl are serviceable #2 centers but I don't see us winning the SC with either of them as our top-center.

 

[CrypTic]

The way I look at the ask for 3 year contracts from those guys is that they are going to handicap my team. We are not going to win the cup with present Jumbo and Patty playing 'primary' roles. And I do not expect DW to go out and get their replacements while they are still active on the roster. Specially a replacement for Jumbo.

If, we had been able to draft a bonafide #1C to replace Jumbo, maybe having Jumbo in a smaller role would have worked. But as things stand, Jumbo is our #1C at the age of 38. That is a pretty bad position for our team to be in overall. This is not a slight on Jumbo, but more of a sad state of our teams lack in drafting blue-chip players. Couture and Hertl are serviceable #2 centers but I don't see us winning the SC with either of them as our top-center.

I completely agree. We were lucky two seasons ago that Jumbo was PPG. What an amazing season! But it's not likely to repeat and we're mediocre without an excellent Jumbo. I still have some hope for Hertl's upside but it's decreasing every year. Realistically, he's likely to remain a 2C or maybe another 1b C like Couture. Which is nice to have if you also have a top 1C but probably isn't going to get you far in the playoffs. It might get you in, though, so if that's all they're worried about, losing Jumbo and Patty wouldn't necessarily lead to getting a top 1C since you usually have to draft those or else have other blue chippers to trade for one.

I'm fine with a cheap 3 year deal but I'm sure both Jumbo and Patty want more $$. E.g., if they were paid like 3rd liners for 3 years, that would be ok IMO. Still risky bc they're over 35 so they can't retire w/o the cap hitting us but worth it IMO. But they can probably get more overall $$ on some 2-year deal so I don't know why they'd do it except as a favor to the Sharks.

 

[Alwalys]

The way I look at the ask for 3 year contracts from those guys is that they are going to handicap my team. We are not going to win the cup with present Jumbo and Patty playing 'primary' roles. And I do not expect DW to go out and get their replacements while they are still active on the roster. Specially a replacement for Jumbo.

If, we had been able to draft a bonafide #1C to replace Jumbo, maybe having Jumbo in a smaller role would have worked. But as things stand, Jumbo is our #1C at the age of 38. That is a pretty bad position for our team to be in overall. This is not a slight on Jumbo, but more of a sad state of our teams lack in drafting blue-chip players. Couture and Hertl are serviceable #2 centers but I don't see us winning the SC with either of them as our top-center.

Drafting where we did, drafting a 1c was basically impossible. Look at all the 1cs better than 38 year old thornton around the league... with few exceptions all drafted high in the 1st.

 

[do0glas]

If you cant get elite centers you get elite scoring wingers.

Patches or galchenyuk
Jvr
Wheeler
Marchand
Hoffman

Etc

Any available. Who knows.

 

[Alwalys]

jvr and hoffman do not belong on that list.

there really aren't that many truly elite players to be had for a song these days.

we did pretty well to get logan, but we have done poorly with what first round talent we DID draft.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If you cant get elite centers you get elite scoring wingers.

Patches or galchenyuk
Jvr
Wheeler
Marchand
Hoffman

Etc

Any available. Who knows.

I agree in principle that could work for us. For us, it may be easier to fill the void with really good speedy wingers on Couture's and/or Hertl's line. Speed killed us against Pittsburgh last year and also hurt us against Edmonton this year.

 

[do0glas]

jvr and hoffman do not belong on that list.

there really aren't that many truly elite players to be had for a song these days.

we did pretty well to get logan, but we have done poorly with what first round talent we DID draft.

Top 20 in p/60 with over 1000 minutes.

Id even look overseas as well.

 

[Lebanezer]

I'm sure that Thornton and Marleau want to see what Doug is going to do to address the issues with the team before they make their decision. Personally I have no problem giving Thornton 3 years, just having him around I think is beneficial to everyone including the prospects and Barracuda players. I could see Marleau leaving if he gets the term he wants, and I would be sad about that. I do think it's a dangerous endeavor for Marleau though, he knows his usage with the Sharks and he has enough equity built up that he's still going to get his 15 minutes a night with power play time. Going to another team with established power play units and lines may make it difficult for him to maintain a top 6 role. Especially since he does not drive possession like Thornton.

Given the state of everything, I just don't know what the Sharks can or will do. I know we all want to do a rebuild of some kind, but I think as long as DW is the GM that's just not going to happen, even if we do lose Thornton and Marleau. I guess I would just describe this as a tumultuous time for the franchise, until Doug does something to inject youth into the core.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Wonder what the best picks DW could get if he traded the rights to jumbo and Patty.

 

[Negatively Positive]

Save the capspace and offersheet McDavid next offseason. I just don't see how we're getting that 1C anytime soon unless DW can pull a rabbit out of his hat. We don't have any blue chip prospects. Our most valuable assets are 28 or older in Burns, Couture, Vlasic, and Pavelski. Trading Burns or Vlasic would leave a big hole on defense and we might have a hard time replacing them so it's plugging one hole and creating another. I can just smell the mediocrity.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Save the capspace and offersheet McDavid next offseason. I just don't see how we're getting that 1C anytime soon unless DW can pull a rabbit out of his hat. We don't have any blue chip prospects. Our most valuable assets are 28 or older in Burns, Couture, Vlasic, and Pavelski. Trading Burns or Vlasic would leave a big hole on defense and we might have a hard time replacing them so it's plugging one hole and creating another. I can just smell the mediocrity.

I think there is no realistic chance that anyone offersheets McDavid and gets away with it. Oilers will match any offersheet thrown at him. Smarter move would be for someone to offersheet Draisaitl and either handicap them for the McDavid signing OR they lose Draisaitl. No way they lose McDavid anyway.

 

[CrypTic]

I think there is no realistic chance that anyone offersheets McDavid and gets away with it. Oilers will match any offersheet thrown at him. Smarter move would be for someone to offersheet Draisaitl and either handicap them for the McDavid signing OR they lose Draisaitl. No way they lose McDavid anyway.

I agree. My hope in offersheeting Drai would actually be to pick up someone like Strome next season bc they'd be paying Drai and McDavid so much. There's no way that they'll let McDavid move and it's unlikely that they'd let Drai move.

The other thing offersheets to Drai and McDavid might do is push Drai's and McDavid's actual UFA free years forward. I.e., they could choose an offersheet of four years instead of a longer one if they'd rather be on another team or at least have the opportunity to look around and evaluate offers in four years. That would force Edmonton to sign them for four years instead of locking them up long term. IMO that's a longshot but a possibility. Bc otherwise, I'm pretty sure Edmonton will try to lock them up for longer term.

McDavid is in control of his contract. If he wants a short one, he can have it. If he wants a long one, he can have it. All he has to do is have his agent put out rumors. He can get max $$ if he wants it or accept less so the Oilers have more $$. It's up to him.

 

[hohosaregood]

Sign them for 5 years and the tank is real.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I keep hearing how our speed killed us against the Penguins, but y'all realize that isn't because of our skaters, right? It's because we play slow hockey. Adding a couple of fast wingers isn't going to change that. Look at Boedker; we played slower this year than last.

Fast hockey is about on-ice vision and clean, crisp passing.

 

[DG93]

I keep hearing how our speed killed us against the Penguins, but y'all realize that isn't because of our skaters, right? It's because we play slow hockey. Adding a couple of fast wingers isn't going to change that. Look at Boedker; we played slower this year than last.

Fast hockey is about on-ice vision and clean, crisp passing.

This. The Sharks slow the play down with drop passes and dump & chase rather than quick passes while entering the zone. Thornton is the #1 culprit, so I think we'll see the Sharks play faster if he's not on the team. If Thornton re-signs, it'll be status quo.

 

[Juxtaposer]

This. The Sharks slow the play down with drop passes and dump & chase rather than quick passes while entering the zone. Thornton is the #1 culprit, so I think we'll see the Sharks play faster if he's not on the team. If Thornton re-signs, it'll be status quo.

The Sharks dump and chase more than anyone in hockey. That's what slows our game down more than anything. One of the reasons Hertl was so great on the Thornton line is that he's one of our few guys that carries the puck in.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

This. The Sharks slow the play down with drop passes and dump & chase rather than quick passes while entering the zone. Thornton is the #1 culprit, so I think we'll see the Sharks play faster if he's not on the team. If Thornton re-signs, it'll be status quo.

Oh I agree. When I say we are slow it is mainly because of the style of play. We have traditionally had slower skaters on our team which 'forced' us to use this system but we really need to move away from that now that we have faster skaters and more options.

But Thornton is the leader of this team, C or no-C, players look up to him. Even the coaches looked intimidated and did not want to do anything he did not want. Not splitting up the Joes was a primary example of that last season. If Jumbo is back, as you said, it will be status quo.

 

[DG93]

The Sharks dump and chase more than anyone in hockey. That's what slows our game down more than anything. One of the reasons Hertl was so great on the Thornton line is that he's one of our few guys that carries the puck in.

Agreed, which is why Hansen-Hertl-Boedker worked pretty damn well. Hertl's game doesn't involve a ridiculous amount of dump & chase and the other two are fast wingers.

But Thornton is the leader of this team, C or no-C, players look up to him. Even the coaches looked intimidated and did not want to do anything he did not want. Not splitting up the Joes was a primary example of that last season. If Jumbo is back, as you said, it will be status quo.

Yeah, agreed...that's still probably not enough for me to say that Jumbo shouldn't be re-signed though.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Oh I agree. When I say we are slow it is mainly because of the style of play. We have traditionally had slower skaters on our team which 'forced' us to use this system but we really need to move away from that now that we have faster skaters and more options.

But Thornton is the leader of this team, C or no-C, players look up to him. Even the coaches looked intimidated and did not want to do anything he did not want. Not splitting up the Joes was a primary example of that last season. If Jumbo is back, as you said, it will be status quo.

I completely disagree with that. We have a slow system because that's what our coaches have wanted to play. Joe Thornton is an exception because he's a Hall of Fame centerman.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I completely disagree with that. We have a slow system because that's what our coaches have wanted to play. Joe Thornton is an exception because he's a Hall of Fame centerman.

You can disagree all you want, but when the best player in the history of the franchise wants things done a specific way, they get done.

 

[Juxtaposer]

You can disagree all you want, but when the best player in the history of the franchise wants things done a specific way, they get done.

Thornton only plays on one line. There are three others. You're telling me that his mere presence on the team forces the other three lines to play like him? You're telling me that McLellan and DeBoer design their systems solely around Thornton? I don't buy that. DeBoer played slow hockey in his previous jobs and McLellan is still playing slow hockey when McDavid isn't on on the ice.

 

[hohosaregood]

You just have to slow down the other team. Just take advantage of the obstruction rules that barely exist.

 

[WTFetus]

I keep hearing how our speed killed us against the Penguins, but y'all realize that isn't because of our skaters, right? It's because we play slow hockey. Adding a couple of fast wingers isn't going to change that. Look at Boedker; we played slower this year than last.

Fast hockey is about on-ice vision and clean, crisp passing.

Pretty much. And watching all the other playoff series, the other teams' passing is so much crisper and tape-to-tape. I swear the last few seasons, the Sharks bobble more passes than any other team and I have no clue why.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Sharks were pretty crisp the year before. Last year they were not sharp.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If there's truth to this, he's gone. Which also means Marleau is very likely to be gone as well.