Rumor: Sharks in on Kovalchuk sweepstakes

[Antbox530]

If the Sharks want Vegas to take Boedker or Ward I imagine it would have to be something like Vegas' rumored deal with Chicago, where the Hawks will trade them TVR as long as they select Kruger in the expansion draft. I don't think a prospect would be enough though from the Sharks, they'd probably want Schlemko, Dillon or Braun.

then give them Tierney or a 2018 3rd to take Ward and trade Boedker to somewhere else. Boedker may not have much value, but I don't think he has negative value.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

What has Hertl done to justify a significant raise from $3mil/yr?

 

[hockeyball]

I have absolutely zero interest. Rebuild.

 

[Herschel]

Personally, I think the KHL years makes Kovy a young 34

No question father time will have taken some toll on him but it is not like he has been dealing with the physical grind of the NHL game or schedule.

I would like DW to target Duchene or Drouin. Adding either of these guys to Couture make that a legitimate first line, even if Couture isn't an elite centre. But my fall back to adding Kovy.

To chime in on the rebuild... not going to happen and if a true rebuild happened I would not be surprised if it ended in a different city.

 

[Gecklund]

Mueller+O'Regan for Kovies rights then sign him to a 5.5-6 contract for 3 years and then resign Marleau and Thornton for contracts around 5-5.5 for 2-3 years.

Kovie-Thornton-Pav
Marleau-Couture-Donskoi/Boedker
Hansen-Hertl-Boedker/Donskoi
Carpenter-Tierney-Meier/Karlsson

Send Labanc/Meier to the AHL
Send Ward to the Sun.

 

[Internazionale]

Mueller+O'Regan for Kovies rights then sign him to a 5.5-6 contract for 3 years and then resign Marleau and Thornton for contracts around 5-5.5 for 2-3 years.

Kovie-Thornton-Pav
Marleau-Couture-Donskoi/Boedker
Hansen-Hertl-Boedker/Donskoi
Carpenter-Tierney-Meier/Karlsson

Send Labanc/Meier to the AHL
Send Ward to the Sun.

Mueller in a trade would be fine, but not O'Regan. I know some of ya'll see him as a minor league player, but for a 5th round pick to do what he did this year is pretty impressive. He will only get better I hope.

 

[Jwec]

Mueller in a trade would be fine, but not O'Regan. I know some of ya'll see him as a minor league player, but for a 5th round pick to do what he did this year is pretty impressive. He will only get better I hope.

I absolutely would trade package which would include O'Regan for Kovy. Kovy could be gamechanger and can put a season with +30 goals and +30 assists. Also he would probably play very well with Jumbo and Pavs. O'Regan's upside is probably third line center and I would absolutely trade prospect who's upside is 3C for game changing player like Kovy.

 

[Bizz]

If he's cheap enough, why not.

The Sharks will not rebuild, ever. Quit dreaming.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Mueller in a trade would be fine, but not O'Regan. I know some of ya'll see him as a minor league player, but for a 5th round pick to do what he did this year is pretty impressive. He will only get better I hope.

I just do not see O'Regan as a top-6 player in the NHL. And we have a boatload of bottom-6 players waiting for a chance. I would be totally fine trading him.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If he's cheap enough, why not.

The Sharks will not rebuild, ever. Quit dreaming.

The fact that they are looking at Kovy (if true) is enough of a sign that they are not rebuilding. Well, not this year anyway.

 

[bigwillie]

I don't take the Sharks interest in Kovalchuk as a sign they aren't rebuilding, as Doug Wilson is a habitual and notorious tire kicker and would probably listen to trade offers for his own mother. If there's a big name on the market, he's checking it out.

That being said, Bizz is right in that the Sharks aren't rebuilding for the foreseeable future, and everyone hoping for a good old fashioned blow it up and build it from the ground up is dreaming. I think the mini-tank for McDavid a.k.a. the "youth movement" we saw a few years ago is as close as we'll get. Never mind the fact I don't think DW will risk his job on a prolonged rebuild, the Sharks simply need the revenue a playoff team brings considering how god awful their TV contract is.

 

[Alwalys]

Grosnick resigned, Dell part of Kovy trade confirmed!

What has Hertl done to justify a significant raise from $3mil/yr?

for better or worse possession stats are NHL official stats now and hertl has been a dominant possession center.

 

[LadyStanley]

Just to clarify things...

Kovalchuk is on VRL, voluntary retirement list. He cannot be selected in expansion draft, doesn't have to be protected.

He cannot sign with any team but NJD, unless the 30 other teams agree to it. (Or he could wait a year and sign with any team)

He cannot be signed until 7/1.

So, early July, it'll be a sign and trade.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

Wouldn't having Kovy means Burns moving to forward is even lesser of a requirement?

Kovy-Couture-Donskoi
Hansen-Jumbo-Pavs
Meier-Hertl-Boedker
Sorenson/Labanc-Tierney-Karlsson

Not sure if there is any room for Ward at all there. Also, I am going under the assumption that if Kovy is signed, we are getting both Jumbo and Patty back.

so much so that you forgot to put patty in your lineup

 

[Vaasa]

I don't take the Sharks interest in Kovalchuk as a sign they aren't rebuilding, as Doug Wilson is a habitual and notorious tire kicker and would probably listen to trade offers for his own mother. If there's a big name on the market, he's checking it out.

That being said, Bizz is right in that the Sharks aren't rebuilding for the foreseeable future, and everyone hoping for a good old fashioned blow it up and build it from the ground up is dreaming. I think the mini-tank for McDavid a.k.a. the "youth movement" we saw a few years ago is as close as we'll get. Never mind the fact I don't think DW will risk his job on a prolonged rebuild, the Sharks simply need the revenue a playoff team brings considering how god awful their TV contract is.

I don't think anyone is advocating for that. The Sharks don't need to do that in order to "rebuild". A rebuild, at least as I have been interpreting what myself and many other have been advocating for, means roughly the following (different people may have different aspects of this that they agree on):

- Move on from JT and Marleau unless they are willing to come in dirt and give up formal leadership roles
- If good deals (ones that return young, potentially very high-end talent) can be found, the Sharks should be willing to trade from among the following: Pavelski, Vlasic, Burns, and possibly even Jones and Couture
- Shift the team focus to acquiring, developing, and playing young talent with a focus on high-risk, high-reward type players
- Keep enough quality role-players and cheap quality vets around to both help mentor the young players and help keep the team competitive enough to challenge for a playoff berth (with no real expectation of going far if they get in)

This means the team has a chance at some top-10 (maybe top-5 with draft lottery luck) draft picks, some valuable assets (Vlasic, Burns, Pavelski, etc) that they could move for high-potential young talent, while still retaining enough talent that they aren't a bottom-feeder.

At least, that's my general idea. I expect others may disagree significantly.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I don't think anyone is advocating for that. The Sharks don't need to do that in order to "rebuild". A rebuild, at least as I have been interpreting what myself and many other have been advocating for, means roughly the following (different people may have different aspects of this that they agree on):

- Move on from JT and Marleau unless they are willing to come in dirt and give up formal leadership roles
- If good deals (ones that return young, potentially very high-end talent) can be found, the Sharks should be willing to trade from among the following: Pavelski, Vlasic, Burns, and possibly even Jones and Couture
- Shift the team focus to acquiring, developing, and playing young talent with a focus on high-risk, high-reward type players
- Keep enough quality role-players and cheap quality vets around to both help mentor the young players and help keep the team competitive enough to challenge for a playoff berth (with no real expectation of going far if they get in)

This means the team has a chance at some top-10 (maybe top-5 with draft lottery luck) draft picks, some valuable assets (Vlasic, Burns, Pavelski, etc) that they could move for high-potential young talent, while still retaining enough talent that they aren't a bottom-feeder.

At least, that's my general idea. I expect others may disagree significantly.

I'm just not sure that would be the best strategy going forward. Acquiring high-end young forward talent becomes implausible if you don't have a top-5 pick (I can count on one hand the number of elite forwards who have come out of the draft outside of the top-5 in the past decade). With defensive talent, the Sharks have never developed a high-end defenseman, so I'm not very sanguine on that front either.

Now, your point about the draft lottery is well taken. That could mean the Sharks get low picks even with middling finishes.

The choices are simply bifurcated...if you believe the Sharks's window is open, trade picks, prospects, and youth for current talent and go for it. If you think the window is closed, tear the roster down.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I still think a one year stealth tank is the way to go.

 

[Vaasa]

I'm just not sure that would be the best strategy going forward. Acquiring high-end young forward talent becomes implausible if you don't have a top-5 pick (I can count on one hand the number of elite forwards who have come out of the draft outside of the top-5 in the past decade). With defensive talent, the Sharks have never developed a high-end defenseman, so I'm not very sanguine on that front either.

Now, your point about the draft lottery is well taken. That could mean the Sharks get low picks even with middling finishes.

The choices are simply bifurcated...if you believe the Sharks's window is open, trade picks, prospects, and youth for current talent and go for it. If you think the window is closed, tear the roster down.

If someone doesn't think the Sharks window is closed now, I doubt they would ever think it is. When JT and Patty are gone, well we still have Burns, Pavs, Couture, and Hertl! That's another 3-5 years of window in their head I'm sure. And then there will be other moves that extend the window even more.

I'm one who doesn't think even a healthy Sharks beats Edmonton this year. And if they did, I don't think they past Anaheim or even Nashville. Yes, some teams are declining and sometimes you can go on improbably runs (Ottawa this year, Sharks last year). But if that's your argument then it just adds to the "Sharks window will never close" argument above. The only way they would ever be out of the window would be if they were Colorado or Coyote bad. And that's just not likely to happen.

 

[Vaasa]

I still think a one year stealth tank is the way to go.

Can you provide some specific moves that you think would think would comprise a "stealth tank"? Because I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Can you provide some specific moves that you think would think would comprise a "stealth tank"? Because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Basically my idea is this: tank, but make it look like you're trying to compete. Sign a bunch of terrible players for one year, but the catch is that they aren't players that the average fan thinks are terrible. Basically you're manipulating your fan base into thinking that you're going to be good while purposely trying to be bad, ie Jim Benning the last year or two.

For example: Jarome Iginla was one of the worst forwards in the entire league last year, but if you asked the average Sharks fan (or NHL fan for that matter) I bet they wouldn't blink twice if I said that Iginla and Marleau are approximately equal right now. So you let Marleau walk and sign Iginla for one year as a "replacement" to appease the fans. Feed him big minutes and watch him tank whatever line he's put on.

The Sharks already have a shooting percentage issue: compound that by giving players who are good but aren't high shot quality players more minutes, like Hansen, Karlsson, etc. Load up a single line with all the top talent: in this case, Couture-Hertl-Pavelski. Colorado was still able to be ****ing awful despite having the Mackinnon/Rantanen line play terrific hockey. One line with all the talent is the best way to tank the forward group. Presumably Thornton will be out for at least the first couple of months; if not, I would be very concerned with whether he was taking his rehab seriously, and who knows how effective he'd even be? Give Danny O'Regan charge of the third line center spot; that should be easy to market since he was the AHL rookie of the year, but I expect he would crash and burn. Leave Meier and Labanc in the AHL for more "seasoning" (which I honestly wouldn't hate whatever we do). Goodrow could do some damage to the 4th line. Hell, give my man Buddy Robinson a shot.

On D, I don't think much would have to change. Vlasic and Braun were awful last year, which I think is mostly Braun's fault, so keep them together (then trade Braun next summer). Martin will be another year older. Expose Dillon in the expansion draft. I'm sure there's some awful third paring D out there we can sign one year to tank the Schlemko pairing (*cough* Polak). And obviously I have concerns about Burns, although I don't expect him to suck like he did the last couple months of this season.

As for goaltending: trade Dell, call up Grosenick and give him 30 games under the premise that you're giving Jones more rest this season because you have the AHL goaltender of the year to back him up. If I'm right that Grosenick is another Stalock, then he should be able to lose us a few games.

Our special teams are already trash. Nothing needs to change there!

Beyond that? Hope for some bad injury luck. Looking at this lineup, if Vlasic misses 20 games you're boned (in this scenario, to our benefit).

Couture-Hertl-Pavelski
Hansen-Thornton-Iginla
Karlsson-O'Regan-Donskoi
Ward-Tierney-Haley
Boedker, Sorensen, Goodrow

Vlasic-Braun
Martin-Burns
****** ass D-Schlemko
Mueller

Jones (50 games)
Grosenick (30 games)

Ideally you've signed Vlasic and Jones to extensions this summer so they don't up and bolt over this ****show.

Get a top-5 pick. Sell your marginal players (Ward, Hansen, maybe even Braun) for prospects and picks at the deadline, at which point you can call up the kids.

Then next season you let Iginla/"Polak" walk, bring up the kids, apologize to the fans, get a new backup, and hopefully you get a shiny top pick out of it. You still have Couture, Pavelski, Hertl, Thornton, Burns, Vlasic, Schlemko, Meier, Labanc, Donskoi, and Jones, so you can plausibly load up again.

Kind of like 2015, but more aggressively bad. Like the Canadiens in 2012, when they had some bad injury luck and ended up with Galchenyuk and then bounced right back into the playoffs the next year.

The key to tanking is secretly to not go scorched earth. Keep good players (for example: Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly). Sign awful players (Polak, Hunwick, Spaling, Boyes, Froese, Clune, etc.) in the short term to overwhelm the good players. If you do it right, you end up Toronto. If you go scorched earth, you end up Buffalo.

Is this incredibly unrealistic and does it count on a fair bit of luck? Absolutely. But at this point I think it's our best option. If there is anything that OrrNumber4 and I agree on, it's that without a top-5 pick, it is essentially impossible to get an elite young forward, which is the thing we need far and above anything else.

 

[WTFetus]

Not really related to anything else, but why would Thornton have to take a few months off to be taking rehab seriously?
By all reports, the majority of the damage was his MCL, not his ACL. Unless they are lying (no real reason to assume that right now), it shouldn't take that long. It's already been almost 6 weeks, and he has another 16+ weeks before the regular season. That's also not considering that their rehab programs are a lot better than the average citizen.

I mean, I don't even really want either of them back, I just think we're overexaggerating the timeline given what we were told.

 

[hohosaregood]

All the stealth tank needs is for the Sharks to fire Deboer and hire Steve Spott and Roy Sommer as the co-interim coaches for the year.

 

[Lebanezer]

Basically my idea is this: tank, but make it look like you're trying to compete. Sign a bunch of terrible players for one year, but the catch is that they aren't players that the average fan thinks are terrible. Basically you're manipulating your fan base into thinking that you're going to be good while purposely trying to be bad, ie Jim Benning the last year or two.

For example: Jarome Iginla was one of the worst forwards in the entire league last year, but if you asked the average Sharks fan (or NHL fan for that matter) I bet they wouldn't blink twice if I said that Iginla and Marleau are approximately equal right now. So you let Marleau walk and sign Iginla for one year as a "replacement" to appease the fans. Feed him big minutes and watch him tank whatever line he's put on.

The Sharks already have a shooting percentage issue: compound that by giving players who are good but aren't high shot quality players more minutes, like Hansen, Karlsson, etc. Load up a single line with all the top talent: in this case, Couture-Hertl-Pavelski. Colorado was still able to be ****ing awful despite having the Mackinnon/Rantanen line play terrific hockey. One line with all the talent is the best way to tank the forward group. Presumably Thornton will be out for at least the first couple of months; if not, I would be very concerned with whether he was taking his rehab seriously, and who knows how effective he'd even be? Give Danny O'Regan charge of the third line center spot; that should be easy to market since he was the AHL rookie of the year, but I expect he would crash and burn. Leave Meier and Labanc in the AHL for more "seasoning" (which I honestly wouldn't hate whatever we do). Goodrow could do some damage to the 4th line. Hell, give my man Buddy Robinson a shot.

On D, I don't think much would have to change. Vlasic and Braun were awful last year, which I think is mostly Braun's fault, so keep them together (then trade Braun next summer). Martin will be another year older. Expose Dillon in the expansion draft. I'm sure there's some awful third paring D out there we can sign one year to tank the Schlemko pairing (*cough* Polak). And obviously I have concerns about Burns, although I don't expect him to suck like he did the last couple months of this season.

As for goaltending: trade Dell, call up Grosenick and give him 30 games under the premise that you're giving Jones more rest this season because you have the AHL goaltender of the year to back him up. If I'm right that Grosenick is another Stalock, then he should be able to lose us a few games.

Our special teams are already trash. Nothing needs to change there!

Beyond that? Hope for some bad injury luck. Looking at this lineup, if Vlasic misses 20 games you're boned (in this scenario, to our benefit).

Couture-Hertl-Pavelski
Hansen-Thornton-Iginla
Karlsson-O'Regan-Donskoi
Ward-Tierney-Haley
Boedker, Sorensen, Goodrow

Vlasic-Braun
Martin-Burns
****** ass D-Schlemko
Mueller

Jones (50 games)
Grosenick (30 games)

Ideally you've signed Vlasic and Jones to extensions this summer so they don't up and bolt over this ****show.

Get a top-5 pick. Sell your marginal players (Ward, Hansen, maybe even Braun) for prospects and picks at the deadline, at which point you can call up the kids.

Then next season you let Iginla/"Polak" walk, bring up the kids, apologize to the fans, get a new backup, and hopefully you get a shiny top pick out of it. You still have Couture, Pavelski, Hertl, Thornton, Burns, Vlasic, Schlemko, Meier, Labanc, Donskoi, and Jones, so you can plausibly load up again.

Kind of like 2015, but more aggressively bad. Like the Canadiens in 2012, when they had some bad injury luck and ended up with Galchenyuk and then bounced right back into the playoffs the next year.

The key to tanking is secretly to not go scorched earth. Keep good players (for example: Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly). Sign awful players (Polak, Hunwick, Spaling, Boyes, Froese, Clune, etc.) in the short term to overwhelm the good players. If you do it right, you end up Toronto. If you go scorched earth, you end up Buffalo.

Is this incredibly unrealistic and does it count on a fair bit of luck? Absolutely. But at this point I think it's our best option. If there is anything that OrrNumber4 and I agree on, it's that without a top-5 pick, it is essentially impossible to get an elite young forward, which is the thing we need far and above anything else.

That is incredibly thorough, and it doesn't seem implausible if Doug makes some poor signings or trades in an attempt to keep the window open. I mean, this is exactly what's happening to the Giants right now, and they most certainly weren't trying to tank, but they're bordering on the worst team in baseball. Actually, I wouldn't be that surprised if some form of this actually accidentally took place.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Do you realize how ****ed up it would be to Logan couture to sign Jarome Iginla and staple him to his wing?

And do you realize how ****ed up the NHL must be for fans to be legitimately suggesting their team do this due to legitimate evidence showing that this is the best strategy for victory? Yikes.

That would be like your boss signing a convicted felon fresh out of jail with no job history and assigning a very large project to you and said convicted felon to work on together. To elaborate, your boss might be doing this in order to drop your company's second quarter earnings, so that he could have an excuse to fire 10 old employees and bring new ones in. That isn't the greatest example, but just imagine that.

A stealth tank wouldn't work. Plus, to elaborate on the example and why it is flawed, DeBoer would take iginla off of Couture's wing after 1 game. In addition, that roster is not bottom-5 worthy, it would be a playoff wildcard; especially with how weak the Pacific is.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Get a top-5 pick. Sell your marginal players (Ward, Hansen, maybe even Braun) for prospects and picks at the deadline, at which point you can call up the kids.

Then next season you let Iginla/"Polak" walk, bring up the kids, apologize to the fans, get a new backup, and hopefully you get a shiny top pick out of it. You still have Couture, Pavelski, Hertl, Thornton, Burns, Vlasic, Schlemko, Meier, Labanc, Donskoi, and Jones, so you can plausibly load up again.

Kind of like 2015, but more aggressively bad. Like the Canadiens in 2012, when they had some bad injury luck and ended up with Galchenyuk and then bounced right back into the playoffs the next year.

The key to tanking is secretly to not go scorched earth. Keep good players (for example: Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly). Sign awful players (Polak, Hunwick, Spaling, Boyes, Froese, Clune, etc.) in the short term to overwhelm the good players. If you do it right, you end up Toronto. If you go scorched earth, you end up Buffalo.

But what are the chances of "doing it right"? Toronto took years to get there. I'm not nearly so pessimistic about SJ's ability to weather losing, but there is a limit! At those odds, you might as well hope the Sharks draft a top-end defenseman or get a top-end forward outside of the top part of the first round.

Also, do you really consider Montreal a contender? Even before trading Subban? If you do think so, do you think Galchenyuk took them over the top? Or was it great drafting with Subban and getting Price with a top-5 pick?

If the Sharks come out of a rebuild with a player of Galchenyuk's caliber, I'd be disappointed. They need elite caliber, superstar talent.

If there is anything that OrrNumber4 and I agree on, it's that without a top-5 pick, it is essentially impossible to get an elite young forward, which is the thing we need far and above anything else.

We agree on plenty. It just isn't any fun to talk about how much we agree with each other.

Plus, much of it isn't disagreement, just me pointing out the bad predictions you've made in the past.