Rumor: Sharks in on Kovalchuk sweepstakes

WTFetus

Marlov
Mar 12, 2009
17,904
3,558
San Francisco
You're really obsessed with that "back-to-back top-5 picks" thing, huh.

I don't see you offering up any better solution. You wanna suggest something, I'm all ears. But if you're just going to whine about back-to-back top-5 picks, I've got no interest.

You ever think that maybe, just maybe, we don't have to copy past teams to win? Look at Nashville. Where's their back-to-back top-5 picks? Or are you just gonna call them a fluke. Nashville has one top-5 pick in their core: Johansen via Jones. The rest of their core was traded for (Subban, Forsberg, Neal) or picked in the late rounds (Josi, Ekholm, Arvidsson). Look at LA: you can complain that they had three straight top-5 picks, but one of them was a bust, and the other was traded for Mike Richards. Richards was vital to their first Cup, but what about the second? He was useless by then. But LA won because of great scouting (Kopitar, Toffoli, Muzzin, Martinez, Pearson). You can point out that Jack Johnson got Jeff Carter, but that was well after Johnson was drafted and he was a mediocre player than Columbus just happened to be obsessed with; his draft spot was irrelevant at that point. Carter was acquired because Lombardi made a great trade and nothing else.

I'm obviously all for a complete revamp of our front office if this were to happen, because our scouts are not suitable to picking in the 1st round (ie they absolutely would have taken Virtanen over Nylander/Ehlers). But that should be a given.

Also? Where was St. Louis' back-to-back top-5 picks? Are you really gonna count the Sedins, who were drafted in 1999, for the Canucks? Because if so, you'd have to count Thornton and Marleau as well. The Kings, again in 2014, did not have back-to-back top-5 picks on their roster.

Agree with this. It's disingenuous to call Boston and possibly Nashville a fluke, while using the "Top-5 picks" argument when you're only really talking about Pittsburgh and Chicago.
Not to mention the whole Sensitivity vs. Specificity argument.
 

Vaasa

Registered User
Aug 23, 2006
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Sacramento, CA
The key to tanking is secretly to not go scorched earth. Keep good players (for example: Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly). Sign awful players (Polak, Hunwick, Spaling, Boyes, Froese, Clune, etc.) in the short term to overwhelm the good players. If you do it right, you end up Toronto. If you go scorched earth, you end up Buffalo.

Is this incredibly unrealistic and does it count on a fair bit of luck? Absolutely. But at this point I think it's our best option. If there is anything that OrrNumber4 and I agree on, it's that without a top-5 pick, it is essentially impossible to get an elite young forward, which is the thing we need far and above anything else.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I understand and actually agree that it may not be a bad idea. I do wonder though how likely a top 5 pick would realistically be though. But hey, the draft lottery has been known to have to weird results. :)
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
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Thank you for the detailed explanation. I understand and actually agree that it may not be a bad idea. I do wonder though how likely a top 5 pick would realistically be though. But hey, the draft lottery has been known to have to weird results. :)

Definitely some good luck would be required. But that's true of literally any rebuild. What if Toronto hadn't won Matthews? They had the best odds but even then it was only something like 20%. The narrative in Toronto would be a **** of a lot different if they had Puljujarvi or Dubois instead of Matthews. The 2007 Blackhawks jumped up like 3 or 4 spots to pick Kane, that required incredible luck. If it hadn't been for the luck of some ping pong balls, the Hawks would never have won a Stanley Cup. And we don't need to get into McDavid again.

Bottom line is there is a ton of luck involved in every aspect of hockey. The only thing you can do is set yourself up to have the best odds.
 

PacificOceanPotion

Registered User
Jun 19, 2009
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Whos the next Mathews or Mcdavid comin out down the road? Werent people talking about Crosby, Mcdavid a few years before their draft years.
 

tiburon12

Registered User
Jul 18, 2009
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Whos the next Mathews or Mcdavid comin out down the road? Werent people talking about Crosby, Mcdavid a few years before their draft years.

I remember being in Montreal in like 2002 for a hockey tournament and seeing a Crosby exposé on TV.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
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Whos the next Mathews or Mcdavid comin out down the road? Werent people talking about Crosby, Mcdavid a few years before their draft years.

Talents like Crosby and McDavid come along once in a decade. And Matthews was a very special case.

Rasmus Dahlin is a defenseman eligible next year who is really special though.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
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Poor man's Ekblad ?

Dahlin 1) has way higher upside than Ekblad and 2) plays nothing like Ekblad stylistically. Watch some highlights, he plays like a more physical Erik Karlsson. Not saying he'll for sure be a Karlsson by any means but he legit has that upside.
 

T0uGh C0oki3

Goodbye Jumbo Joe
Dec 19, 2014
3,863
100
Dahlin 1) has way higher upside than Ekblad and 2) plays nothing like Ekblad stylistically. Watch some highlights, he plays like a more physical Erik Karlsson. Not saying he'll for sure be a Karlsson by any means but he legit has that upside.
Yeah, I have never watched him play before.

Just thought they'd be similar because of their draft positions.
 

zombie kopitar

custom title
Jul 3, 2009
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Calgary went scorched earth (save Giordano & Brodie), they got it going quickly while picking in the lower order of the lottery.
....of course they were gifted Dougie Hamilton.


I don't think there's any single way to build a Cup team in the modern NHL. But one thing is for sure, if you can buy low on a good asset you do it. (Subban, Kessel, Hamilton, Bishop, ect). It's more important than this top 5 pick rhetoric being spewed over and over again.

Sign me up for Kovalchuck, it would absolutely vault this team....like stated earlier, this team is just not going to become a lottery team with the current core.
I mean I said it after they missed the playoffs and I'll say it again, they're still way closer to a regular contender then a regular basement team.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
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Calgary went scorched earth (save Giordano & Brodie), they got it going quickly while picking in the lower order of the lottery.
....of course they were gifted Dougie Hamilton.


I don't think there's any single way to build a Cup team in the modern NHL. But one thing is for sure, if you can buy low on a good asset you do it. (Subban, Kessel, Hamilton, Bishop, ect). It's more important than this top 5 pick rhetoric being spewed over and over again.

I'm still incredibly angry that we didn't get Dougie Hamilton. He was traded for the 14th or 15th pick (can't remember) and a couple of 2nds. We absolutely could have matched that's with the 9th pick and a 2nd. That is a trade that makes someone a contender. Hamilton was a top-10 defenseman this season and he's still only 24 and a RHD.

The fact that nobody has ponied up for Trouba yet is absolutely idiotic.

Elite young D can be acquired without top-5 picks and by trade. I will agree with you there. But elite centers are not available anywhere but by drafting top-5 with few exceptions. Let's look at elite centers in the league that weren't top-5 or were top-5 but got traded:

Getzlaf, Bergeron: late 1st and 2nd rounders in that absolutely stacked 2003 draft. I don't think that's going to happen again.

Kopitar: 11th overall pick that would have been top-5 easily (if not top-2) if it weren't for the fact that he's from Slovenia.

Schiefele: Insanely good scouting/luck, ie something that isn't going to happen to the Sharks. Still took a 7th overall pick to get.

Johansen: Required an elite young RHD who was drafted in the top-5 to get.

Thornton, Seguin: Idiotic trades made by the Bruins. Players whose character was slandered.

Other elite centers (including centers who were elite in their primes and centers who will be elite very very soon): Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Stamkos, Tavares, Backstrom, Toews, Mackinnon, Barkov, Sedin, Eichel, Matthews, Draisaitl, Spezza.

Out of 21 elite centers, 7 were
either picked outside the top-5 or traded by the team that drafted them top-5. Of those seven, three were drafted top-5 and traded; the Thornton and Seguin traded were all-time bad trades and Johansen was one-for-one with another top-5 pick. Of the four that were not top-5 picks, one was a 7th overall, one was an 11th overall that was only not top-5 because of his ethnicity, and the other two were drafted in 2003.

I reiterate: it is nearly impossible to get an elite center outside the top-5. Half of the elite centers in this league that weren't drafted top-5 were from that stacked 2003 draft. One of them was passed over by the Sharks literally because he was Slovenian. And if you aren't going to pounce on players who have "character issues" like Thornton and Seguin, and like Trouba and Drouin, you will never ever get one.

Contrast this with top defensemen: Burns, Karlsson, Subban, Giordano, Hamilton, Brodie, Parayko, Lindholm, OEL, Trouba, Byfuglien, McDonagh, Faulk, Letang, Chara, Keith, Josi, etc. were all picked outside the top-5, and most of them were picked with first round picks of teams in playoff position or later, and quite a few of them were traded.

You don't need two top-5 picks. You need one. And you need to use it to draft a #1C. You can get top D other ways. You can get top-wingers other ways. And you get get good depth and a solid goaltender easily. But you need one top-5 pick to get a center.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
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I'm still incredibly angry that we didn't get Dougie Hamilton. He was traded for the 14th or 15th pick (can't remember) and a couple of 2nds. We absolutely could have matched that's with the 9th pick and a 2nd. That is a trade that makes someone a contender. Hamilton was a top-10 defenseman this season and he's still only 24 and a RHD.

The fact that nobody has ponied up for Trouba yet is absolutely idiotic.

Elite young D can be acquired without top-5 picks and by trade. I will agree with you there. But elite centers are not available anywhere but by drafting top-5 with few exceptions. Let's look at elite centers in the league that weren't top-5 or were top-5 but got traded:

Getzlaf, Bergeron: late 1st and 2nd rounders in that absolutely stacked 2003 draft. I don't think that's going to happen again.

Kopitar: 11th overall pick that would have been top-5 easily (if not top-2) if it weren't for the fact that he's from Slovenia.

Schiefele: Insanely good scouting/luck, ie something that isn't going to happen to the Sharks. Still took a 7th overall pick to get.

Johansen: Required an elite young RHD who was drafted in the top-5 to get.

Thornton, Seguin: Idiotic trades made by the Bruins. Players whose character was slandered.

Other elite centers (including centers who were elite in their primes and centers who will be elite very very soon): Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Stamkos, Tavares, Backstrom, Toews, Mackinnon, Barkov, Sedin, Eichel, Matthews, Draisaitl, Spezza.

Out of 21 elite centers, 7 were either picked outside the top-5 or traded by the team that drafted them top-5. Of those seven, three were drafted top-5 and traded; the Thornton and Seguin traded were all-time bad trades and Johansen was one-for-one with another top-5 pick. Of the four that were not top-5 picks, one was a 7th overall, one was an 11th overall that was only not top-5 because of his ethnicity, and the other two were drafted in 2003.

I reiterate: it is nearly impossible to get an elite center outside the top-5. Half of the elite centers in this league that weren't drafted top-5 were from that stacked 2003 draft. One of them was passed over by the Sharks literally because he was Slovenian. And if you aren't going to pounce on players who have "character issues" like Thornton and Seguin, and like Trouba and Drouin, you will never ever get one.

Contrast this with top defensemen: Burns, Karlsson, Subban, Giordano, Hamilton, Brodie, Parayko, Lindholm, OEL, Trouba, Byfuglien, McDonagh, Faulk, Letang, Chara, Keith, Josi, etc. were all picked outside the top-5, and most of them were picked with first round picks of teams in playoff position or later, and quite a few of them were traded.

You don't need two top-5 picks. You need one. And you need to use it to draft a #1C. You can get top D other ways. You can get top-wingers other ways. And you get get good depth and a solid goaltender easily. But you need one top-5 pick to get a center.

Well said. Although, Johansen is not an elite #1C. Almost, but not quite.

I was cursing not getting Hamilton either (btw....go see the musical! It is playing in SF now), but the Sharks were stacked on defense at the time.
 

Nolan11

Registered User
Mar 5, 2013
3,236
334
Well said. Although, Johansen is not an elite #1C. Almost, but not quite.

I was cursing not getting Hamilton either (btw....go see the musical! It is playing in SF now), but the Sharks were stacked on defense at the time.

I too was #%%#$@ about that trade at the time. Was coveting Hamilton for months before he was traded, as he was exactly what we needed for our defense. (I disagree, we were not cup-contender stacked on D at that time).
 

rangerssharks414

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
32,311
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Long Island, NY
I thought that this thread was about Kovie.

It is? :sarcasm:

If the Sharks really are in on Kovalchuk, I don't expect Marleau and Thornton to go anywhere. Kovalchuk hasn't played in the NHL in awhile, and the game has changed stylistically since he last played (more speed, less size). If I'm remembering correctly, Kovalchuk doesn't skate that that well. He still scored at an elite rate in the second best league in the world, but he was on a loaded team.
 

tiburon12

Registered User
Jul 18, 2009
4,651
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It is? :sarcasm:

If the Sharks really are in on Kovalchuk, I don't expect Marleau and Thornton to go anywhere. Kovalchuk hasn't played in the NHL in awhile, and the game has changed stylistically since he last played (more speed, less size). If I'm remembering correctly, Kovalchuk doesn't skate that that well. He still scored at an elite rate in the second best league in the world, but he was on a loaded team.



My memory of him isnt super sharp, but I do remember him having wheels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iechbO2r6E

most goals in this video display really solid skating ability.
 

zombie kopitar

custom title
Jul 3, 2009
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Best Coast
I reiterate: it is nearly impossible to get an elite center outside the top-5. Half of the elite centers in this league that weren't drafted top-5 were from that stacked 2003 draft. One of them was passed over by the Sharks literally because he was Slovenian. And if you aren't going to pounce on players who have "character issues" like Thornton and Seguin, and like Trouba and Drouin, you will never ever get one.

Kopitar was the 05 draft....but yeah I hear you. That was the first draft I ever followed(for obvious reasons), and I remember everyone saying what a steal he was.

Yes maybe you can't get a true 'elite center' but there's always ways to find elite players, just look at Kucherov as the most recent.

Idk it just seems a little too linear to state things so matter of fact, I mean it's subjective....a healthy Couture would be a #1 on a large handful of teams. We haven't even seen him back at his peak level for 2+ seasons now.

But I'll tell you what's most aggravating about the Sharks recent drafting. Just lose that final game and get the 8th pick, and don't trade up to pass on Mantha for Mueller.
You'd have a prospect pool of Werenski, Mantha & Duclair/Guentzal right there if Sharks scouts are spot on. That'd be pretty well re-stocked without a top 5 pick.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
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Kopitar was the 05 draft....but yeah I hear you. That was the first draft I ever followed(for obvious reasons), and I remember everyone saying what a steal he was.

The 'half' of the elite centers I singled out as not having been drafted in the top-5 (Kopitar, Bergeron, Gertzlaf, and Schiefele) that were drafted in 2003 were Bergeron and Getzlaf.

Yes maybe you can't get a true 'elite center' but there's always ways to find elite players, just look at Kucherov as the most recent.


That's kinda my point. It's difficult, but not at all impossible to get elite talent at any position but center with non-top-5 picks and by trade. There are a dozen elite D in this league drafted after the top-5 and quite a few were available by trade; heck, the only elite D I can think of that actually were drafted in the top-5 are Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Hedman, and soon to be Jones. There are several elite wingers out there drafted after the top-5 as well: Benn, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Pacioretty, Gaudreau, etc. But not centers.


Idk it just seems a little too linear to state things so matter of fact, I mean it's subjective....a healthy Couture would be a #1 on a large handful of teams. We haven't even seen him back at his peak level for 2+ seasons now.

Couture is not an elite center. He has had exactly one elite season, and that was 2013-2014. Other than that he's just been a low-end #1 or a high-end #2.

In my fantasies where we get a star #1C from the draft, I would move Couture to wing and use Hertl as the 2C.

But I'll tell you what's most aggravating about the Sharks recent drafting. Just lose that final game and get the 8th pick, and don't trade up to pass on Mantha for Mueller.
You'd have a prospect pool of Werenski, Mantha & Duclair/Guentzal right there if Sharks scouts are spot on. That'd be pretty well re-stocked without a top 5 pick.

I think it's fairly indisputable that the Sharks' drafting and draft day decisions over the past half dozen seasons has been bad.
 

sjsharks92

Shark Tank Commander
Jun 9, 2014
2,521
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Bay Area, California
I'm team Kovalchuck for the simple fact that it would add some entertainment value at the least. Sharks aren't rebuilding so long as Pavs, JT, Burns and Marleau are here. Not saying I agree but that's the way it is. Let's go out and get Kovy and hope things fall into place.
 

Goldenshark

Registered User
Sep 16, 2007
1,126
306
Vacaville
I'm team Kovalchuck for the simple fact that it would add some entertainment value at the least. Sharks aren't rebuilding so long as Pavs, JT, Burns and Marleau are here. Not saying I agree but that's the way it is. Let's go out and get Kovy and hope things fall into place.

My thoughts exactly.
 

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