Speculation: Shanny, Treliving, and Keefe; what is your end game?

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Are you nuts? Kadri HAD to go; twice he got himself thrown out of playoff series because he didn't know how to tone it down. And then he did it multiple times in Colorado, too!

Funny thing, for all the bitching about Kerfoot, we don't have anyone who's really taken his spot this year...

No he did not. He had three years left at a massive bargain. He got suspended once. The other 2 years he had a better playoffs than any Leaf has had since Gary Roberts.

 

[Stephen]

They're too obsessed with maintaining possession. Yes, more possession = better, but there are points where you need to realize losing possession is better than losing possession and giving up a grade A scoring chance.

I truly believe the reason the Leafs D pinch so much and often stupidly is also related to Keefe's obsession with maintaining possession no matter what. It's also why they tend to stick poke instead of throw hits; successful stick pokes are better for stealing possession, whereas hits risk another player grabbing the loose puck.

I've said it over the years, Keefe's go-no go sliders for junk defensemen is green light more than it should be and tends towards extreme risk. I think his calculation is you catch the opposition off guard when guy like Holl, Lyubushkin, etc. is allowed to make the pro star move by creating an odd man situation at the hashmarks, on the wall, or can continue to drive deep into the O-zone like you'll suddenly collapse their coverage.

This has resulted in nice O-zone time and cycling over the years but is prone to catastrophic turnovers and high danger odd man rushes against.

It's risk reward and I think it skews Toronto dangerously towards fire drill territory.

 

[Stephen]

Are you nuts? Kadri HAD to go; twice he got himself thrown out of playoff series because he didn't know how to tone it down. And then he did it multiple times in Colorado, too!

Funny thing, for all the bitching about Kerfoot, we don't have anyone who's really taken his spot this year...

I don't think Kadri ever had to go, but fell into that purge territory that the GM bungled when time came to act.

 

[Lightsol]

No he did not. He had three years left at a massive bargain. He got suspended once. The other 2 years he had a better playoffs than any Leaf has had since Gary Roberts.

First series with Boston: suspended for 3/4 games in the middle.
Second series with Boston: suspended for the last 5 games.

WTF are you talking about? Are you like my old man, who has forgotten we lost to Boston three times?

 

[PanniniClaus]

Issue with the Leafs is Keefe's obsession with maintaining possession no matter what. Common sense says that the best play in your own zone when you're trapped is to flip it out, but flipping it out tends to cost you possession, and you can just tell by how the D-Men tend to play that Keefe has told them not to do it to maintain possession. As a result, the D-Men are constantly looking for those stupid short passes that other teams tend to pick off and turn into scoring chances...

You just saw it in the Wings game. Other than the Reilly stick explosion goal, the Red Wings scored both of their goals on short D passes they picked off and threw out front.

This was the philosophy Paul Coffey brought the Edmonton and it's working for them. The problem of course is it's a fine line sometimes between success and failure and if you almost never lob pucks out... teams can take extra ice against you... squeeze you, press you.

I have always been an advocate for best play available which takes into account the time you have, the skills you possess, the skills your team mates possess, the time on the clock, score etc. It's how I've taught hockey from U-11 through Junior.

The Panthers went to the finals by retrieving quickly and getting the puck out into the NZ where they would try to win loose puck battles there. It took until the very end, with a very skilled and heavy team, to beat them. I'm not saying that has to be the base system but it's good to have in the locker on nights you feel you need it.

 

[Lightsol]

I don't think Kadri ever had to go, but fell into that purge territory that the GM bungled when time came to act.

He showed the Leafs brass he couldn't be relied on when it counted, because although yes, he tried to stick up for his teammates, it also lead to him missing a bunch of games from two different series when they could have really used him. I hated the deal, but considering it was the result of a bad situation (you tell the guy he's traded, he nixes the deal, and now you've got a pissed off player you have to move)...

Barrie stunk; getting Brodie for Kadri would have been better, but Kadri nixed it out of pure spite.

This was the philosophy Paul Coffey brought the Edmonton and it's working for them. The problem of course is it's a fine line sometimes between success and failure and if you almost never lob pucks out... teams can take extra ice against you... squeeze you, press you.

I have always been an advocate for best play available which takes into account the time you have, the skills you possess, the skills your team mates possess, the time on the clock, score etc. It's how I've taught hockey from U-11 through Junior.

The Panthers went to the finals by retrieving quickly and getting the puck out into the NZ where they would try to win loose puck battles there. It took until the very end, with a very skilled and heavy team, to beat them. I'm not saying that has to be the base system but it's good to have in the locker on nights you feel you need it.

Thing is, to pull it off you either need a really speedy puck moving defense or a goalie who can bail you out, because the style hemorrhages scoring chances when it doesn't work. And the Leafs have had the back luck this year of having 95% of the scoring chances they give up ending up in the net. Really, the problem is they don't have the TEAM to play this style really well; they were closer when they had guys like Kapanen and were much faster. Bertuzzi, Tavares, McCabe, Brodie, Gio... They're not fast enough to play this way.

 

[Stephen]

He showed the Leafs brass he couldn't be relied on when it counted, because although yes, he tried to stick up for his teammates, it also lead to him missing a bunch of games from two different series when they could have really used him. I hated the deal, but considering it was the result of a bad situation (you tell the guy he's traded, he nixes the deal, and now you've got a pissed off player you have to move)...

Barrie stunk; getting Brodie for Kadri would have been better, but Kadri nixed it out of pure spite.

The Kadri deal was a classic "mandate" trade where the team acts based on the feeling they had to do something. They could have done nothing, attempted to rebuild whatever trust was lost and just keep rolling. We've seen them stick with this core group time and again after they wet the bed.

But yeah, they lost that trade pretty bad, though when they went and re-spent the money on Brodie in free agency it was a win for a few years.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

First series with Boston: suspended for 3/4 games in the middle.
Second series with Boston: suspended for the last 5 games.

WTF are you talking about? Are you like my old man, who has forgotten we lost to Boston three times?

You said, "And then he did it multiple times in Colorado, too!" You can simply scroll up to see it, old man.

The only thing he did multiple times was be the second and third best player on the Avalanche (and better than any Leaf in 20 years) for 2 deep runs and a Stanley Cup.

It is quite amazing to be so arrogant that you disagree with reality. Kadri should've gotten an A for being the one of the only Leafs with any guts.

 

[Lightsol]

The Kadri deal was a classic "mandate" trade where the team acts based on the feeling they had to do something. They could have done nothing, attempted to rebuild whatever trust was lost and just keep rolling. We've seen them stick with this core group time and again after they wet the bed.

But yeah, they lost that trade pretty bad, though when they went and re-spent the money on Brodie in free agency it was a win for a few years.

Well, Kadri was closer to a 2C than a 3C, and the hope was that playing him on the 3rd line behind Matthews and Tavares would let him feast on worse matchups. And it sort of worked... Until the playoffs, when Boston once again managed to get Kadri to lose his cool and get himself suspended, taking that advantage away. As I said, I'm pretty sure at that point the thought was that having this luxury wasn't worth it when the player in question kept getting himself suspended when they needed him.

 

[TMLife17]

Scorched earth. Fire Shanny, Tre, Keefe. Ask Marner and Tavares to waive. Sell assets and do a retool. For a decade into this rebuild Shanahan has failed and i don’t know how much more proof you need.

It’s over until at least 2025-26 season so load up for a push in two years for a small window of 34/88/44 still being in their primes.

 

[Lightsol]

You said, "And then he did it multiple times in Colorado, too!" You can simply scroll up to see it, old man.

The only thing he did multiple times was be the second and third best player on the Avalanche (and better than any Leaf in 20 years) for 2 deep runs and a Stanley Cup.

It is quite amazing to be so arrogant that you disagree with reality. Kadri should've gotten an A for being the one of the only Leafs with any guts.

First year in Colorado: was DIRECTLY responsible for them losing the deciding game, as every single goal Col gave up that game was his fault.
Second year in Colorado: Got suspended. Again.
Third year in Colorado: Finally, finally had a good playoff where he didn't get suspended and didn't directly cost his team games. Only took 7 tries.

And now his contract makes some of ours look like bargains. Sure cashed in on that one year, didn't he?

Scorched earth. Fire Shanny, Tre, Keefe. Ask Marner and Tavares to waive. Sell assets and do a retool. For a decade into this rebuild Shanahan has failed and i don’t know how much more proof you need.

It’s over until at least 2025-26 season so load up for a push in two years for a small window of 34/88/44 still being in their primes.

Why don't we just trade everybody and tank for 1st overall again? I mean, it only took 30 years between our first and second, what's another three decades of shit?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

First year in Colorado: was DIRECTLY responsible for them losing the deciding game, as every single goal Col gave up that game was his fault.
Second year in Colorado: Got suspended. Again.
Third year in Colorado: Finally, finally had a good playoff where he didn't get suspended and didn't directly cost his team games. Only took 7 tries.

And now his contract makes some of ours look like bargains. Sure cashed in on that one year, didn't he?

Oh man. You were definitely one of those guys that ran him out of town that he talked about after winning the Cup. Making up this crap to feel better about one of the worst trades in franchise history. Avalanche had their third goalie who couldn't make a save, but it was definitely on Kadri for sure. If that's the standard I'm scared to ask, if that goal was on Kadri, then how many goals have Kerfluff and Barrie cost the Leafs.

This started with you saying that he was thrown out of series multiple times, but now it's about him being on for goals against. Interesting stuff!!

Nobody cares about what his contract is now. They traded a bargain 2C with 3 years of term for nothing.

You completely disregarded what you said in the last post and pretended it didn't happen, must be the old age. Instead wrote about things that were never the topic. But enough of you derailing this thread to be wrong about the Kadri trade.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I think it's pretty clear at this point they are just trying to save their jobs.

No one in this entire organization should be trusted with safety scissors. Let lone running a multi-billion dollar hockey franchise. Throw a rock in any direction and you'll probably hit someone more qualified.

Continued losing is already all fans have come to expect with this current iteration of the Leafs.

If fans of this team have developed a loser mentality that's on the two losers who continue to lower expectations with each passing failure. Tanenbaum and Shanahan must enjoy the losing to continue on in this same fashion year after year. Which is really bizarre when you think about it considering the whole point of sports is to win.

That's what the end goal SHOULD be for everyone employed by this team.

 

[sittler rules!!!]

Scorched earth. Fire Shanny, Tre, Keefe. Ask Marner and Tavares to waive. Sell assets and do a retool. For a decade into this rebuild Shanahan has failed and i don’t know how much more proof you need.

It’s over until at least 2025-26 season so load up for a push in two years for a small window of 34/88/44 still being in their primes.

yup

 

[ZEBROA]

IMO Kadri would have been a better fit and mentor for Nylander then Tavares. And the extra money could have gotten us a better D or goalie. And more thought would be on how to elevate Nylander more then pleasing Tavares. Right now it does not look good.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Terrible defence construction. Terrible goaltending.

Treliving is a Terrible GM. This was a terrible hire by Shanahan.

Nothing ever changes. The Leafs mismanaged sports fiasco and they never learn. They hold out on Willy only to cave anyway.

 

[Racer88]

The world is round, so if you drop pass enough you might end up in their zone of these days.

The world is round………are you sure

The Leafs system is simple, funnel as much money as possible to the 4 amigo’s who cannot or will not get the job done

First year in Colorado: was DIRECTLY responsible for them losing the deciding game, as every single goal Col gave up that game was his fault.
Second year in Colorado: Got suspended. Again.
Third year in Colorado: Finally, finally had a good playoff where he didn't get suspended and didn't directly cost his team games. Only took 7 tries.

And now his contract makes some of ours look like bargains. Sure cashed in on that one year, didn't he?


Why don't we just trade everybody and tank for 1st overall again? I mean, it only took 30 years between our first and second, what's another three decades of shit?

We have had 5 years of failure under Dubas and Shanny with no end in site

 

[centipede2233]

Scorched earth. Fire Shanny, Tre, Keefe. Ask Marner and Tavares to waive. Sell assets and do a retool. For a decade into this rebuild Shanahan has failed and i don’t know how much more proof you need.

It’s over until at least 2025-26 season so load up for a push in two years for a small window of 34/88/44 still being in their primes.

This is the correct answer. I’ve already mentioned this. This teams window for cup contention is currently closed. Sell ufa’s for picks at this years deadline eg, Bertuzzi retained etc, revamp the d core for the next 2 summers and take a serious run starting in 25/26.

 

[Lemontree]

I don't know, none of Dubas' defenses were ever THIS bad. One thing he was good at was finding undervalued pieces, and Tre, Benoit aside, doesn't seem to be very good at doing that.

But the BIG, BIG issue is that the current Leafs are not built like the team Keefe took over, and he hasn't changed anything to compensate for that. They're not longer a speedy team that can outskate you, but Keefe still wants pond ice hockey offense like they are...


Are you nuts? Kadri HAD to go; twice he got himself thrown out of playoff series because he didn't know how to tone it down. And then he did it multiple times in Colorado, too!

Funny thing, for all the bitching about Kerfoot, we don't have anyone who's really taken his spot this year...

This IS Dubas D core. The only player added by current GM to the top 6 is Benoit and most of Leafs nation is in agreement that he is not an issue.

 

[GoonieFace]

This IS Dubas D core. The only player added by current GM to the top 6 is Benoit and most of Leafs nation is in agreement that he is not an issue.

But apparently losing Kerfoot makes them a bad defensive team all of a sudden. It’s madness the lengths people go to absolve Kyle of this mess

 

[Fogelhund]

1./ First things first, you hire a new coach, and see if he can get something out of this group. It's the simplest manner to try and right the ship.

2./ If that doesn't work, you have to conclude, if you haven't already, that there is just a problem with this group. New President, New GM, maybe a New Coach (again), and then retool.

We allegedly have the top talent in forwards in the league, judging by what they will be paid next year. I mean, we will have four of the top 11 cap hits in the league, so that tells me, they MUST be elite right? My expectation is that we get elite play from them.... on a consistent basis... and that isn't happening.

Before we bitch about defensive construction, Kadri, Kerfoot, Dubas or a bunch of other things that really are irrelevant... our "Elite" guys have to play elite, or none of it matters. It's always been about them... if they are "elite" when it counts, we win... if they aren't, we don't... and here we are. So either a new coach can find a way for them to be elite consistently, or we retool, and find out which guys can play at that level consistently, and which can't.

IMO Kadri would have been a better fit and mentor for Nylander then Tavares. And the extra money could have gotten us a better D or goalie. And more thought would be on how to elevate Nylander more then pleasing Tavares. Right now it does not look good.

You think that a guy who was internally suspended, who had run ins with every coach, had his parents called into the office due to his lack of maturity was the guy to be a mentor?

Man this revisionist history.

 

[IPS]

Finally, finally had a good playoff where he didn't get suspended and didn't directly cost his team games. Only took 7 tries.

Still got our core beat.

 

[weems]

They're too obsessed with maintaining possession. Yes, more possession = better, but there are points where you need to realize losing possession is better than losing possession and giving up a grade A scoring chance.

I truly believe the reason the Leafs D pinch so much and often stupidly is also related to Keefe's obsession with maintaining possession no matter what. It's also why they tend to stick poke instead of throw hits; successful stick pokes are better for stealing possession, whereas hits risk another player grabbing the loose puck.

It's also beneficial offensively sometimes in that it forces the opposing defensemen to retrieve pucks with the pressure of a oncoming forecheck and it really starts to wear you down and you become much more prone to making poor decisions and turning over the puck.

This is especially critical over a 7 game series. Our play style doesn't invole much chipping pucks to open space, winning 50/50 foot races and finishing checks.

 

[67leafs]

Leafs are a bad team with no character, no fight and no balls!!
im the idiot who keeps cheering for them!!

 

[Stephen]

It's also beneficial offensively sometimes in that it forces the opposing defensemen to retrieve pucks with the pressure of a oncoming forecheck and it really starts to wear you down and you become much more prone to making poor decisions and turning over the puck.

This is especially critical over a 7 game series. Our play style doesn't invole much chipping pucks to open space, winning 50/50 foot races and finishing checks.

Fun fact, but the dump and chase technique was actually invented by the Toronto Maple Leafs. They fell behind 3-0 in the 1942 finals vs Detroit. And for whatever reason decided to start dumping the puck in and chasing after and somehow managed to claw back to win the series.

Dump and chase can be hard and unglamorous work but at least puts some uncertainty into the opposing D whether to Red Rover you at the blueline or have to be prepared to turn and retrieve a puck with pressure from a forecheck. Over time in a playoffs it just adds mileage and wear and tear on the opposition. But the Leafs never play these little games and always get the bus parked on them while they cycle around uselessly looking for openings.