Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Hockey Freak 7]

Kessel was fine the last two years. Some blame can go to him, but Sullivan choosing to favor guys like Sheary, Kuhn, and Rowney ....while never giving Sprong a chance(when we needed scoring) ...and running Cole out at the deadline...

Doesnt bode well.

So we just gonna get rid of every talented player who doesnt fit Sullivans criteria? Not every player has to be like Hornqvist, Hagelin, etc. A team can have guys like Kessel and Sprong...and win.

Exactly. Sully tends to have ego and favoritism. He showed his Color this season.
He tends to bench the wrong players at times but he wouldn’t bench nor hold players accountable that’s f***ing up. Really hurting the team.

He often played players out their comfort zone like defenseman on their wrong side ( playing awful Hunwick over Cole ) (he was needed on the blue line/ big loss)and he didn’t let his team gain steady consistency in the reg season to be great in the playoffs ..

He forced issue with Awful Sheary with Sid and played third liners on the top lines.. etc..
Kessel is the scapegoat in this situation and

Kessel shouldn’t be traded and I think Letang should be.. regardless .. his training..
his brain farts .. among other things will keep hurting this team than a durable winger who’s depth on wing position .. where Kessel was back checking before his little injuries in the reg season..
defense needs to be tweak and good tweak for balance offensive depth than Sheary ..
Depth reasonable backup goalie ..

I don’t see Sully here after his contract ends .. he isn’t on the same page with Rutherford at times..

He plays some players beyond their limitations that are one dimensional players. He tends to be not open to new players that can help the team at times like Jorris or Sprong with his personal bias. He give the wrong players longer leash than needed.
He put great players in wrong situations and ok good non experience players in great situations. He did it all season. He treated the lines like really bad with them constant line changes and Guentzel should’ve never been third line center with Kessel... Crosby was often frustrated like Kessel with his line and all season Crosby line was third line ..

Kessel and ok awful during the playoffs he should have put him with Sheahan long time ago.

I give kessel B- in the playoffs.. blame should fall in sully on the line up.. Hell he could’ve played more with Sid at times.. Brassard didn’t do well with kessel since ce he go to Pittsburgh..
You can say what you want about Kessel.. it look like he wanted to play hard for his team and he was put in bad spots to succeed late in this season with Brassard trade.. Brass and kessel never mesh well together..
I don’t think kessel put his iron man streak before the team because Sully has opportunity to scratch him and put in the Sprong line up.
Instead he played him because he didn’t want Sprong’s to play. Jorris could’ve play wing on the third line..

Regardless Sully’s good turn around with Tocchet to win 2 back to back cups .i believe Tocchet was a major part the success that made Sully look incredible..
Sully failed this reg season and post season.
Sully ‘s season was gargantuan F ..
It’s many reasons not to like Sully hell even question him with bad personnel decisions this season..

If he has issues with Geno and Sid.. then they should be traded before he’s fired.. I think not..

People gotta look beyond the 2 cups and see how it is with Sully. It seem like the player is getting all the blame instead Sully and Kessel .. to be fair..
Sully, Coaching Staff, Murray, Letang and beyond Kessel secondary scoring was no where to be found. Injuries,Bad changing and game plans cost them..

It carried over in the series with pens despite making to the playoffs from the reg season.. many things didn’t get fix nor did Coaching Staff take the blinders off for Defense and not giving players consistency to build really have that identity to go harder against teams in the playoffs..


Players won’t say it in interviews but they stop believing this season and key factors play into that..
like the coaching staff and not having key veteran players that hold players accountable behind Sid and Geno.. Letang didn’t deserve that ‘A’

 

[Clatartar]

I don't get it?
Phil away from Sid-Geno 5-5 is the reason Phil works... he gets the easy match-ups.
Phil with Sid-Geno is the reason he got 92 points.. that pp.

 

[billybudd]

If there's genuinely some thought about trading Kessel, it's got nothing to do with his relationship with the coach, his playoffs or his ironman streak and everything to do with fear that his lack of dedication to conditioning will lead to him washing up early. He's obviously not washed up now, but if the Penguins wait until he is, they're probably afraid of being the one holding the $20 million grenade when it explodes (if the reports are true this is).

I'm not advocating that the Penguins trade him this summer (I'm uncomfortable with exploring these types of moves without knowing the return or the upside of the next guy in line...in this case Sprong), but I'd understand the thought process if it happened.

Warm Cookies will certainly be along tomorrow to say that when Letang loses his legs he'll be even worse than a washed up Kessel, because at least Kessel will still have a brain and a shot. That's probably true, but Rutherford may think that because Letang's a gym rat, that day's farther off than it is for Phil. Only time will tell if that's the case.

This is all IF the Penguins are actually thinking about trading Kessel.

 

[billybudd]

Exactly. Sully tends to have ego and favoritism. He showed his Color this season.
He tends to bench the wrong players at times but he wouldn’t bench nor hold players accountable that’s ****ing up. Really hurting the team.

He often played players out their comfort zone like defenseman on their wrong side ( playing awful Hunwick over Cole ) (he was needed on the blue line/ big loss)and he didn’t let his team gain steady consistency in the reg season to be great in the playoffs ..

He forced issue with Awful Sheary with Sid and played third liners on the top lines.. etc..
Kessel is the scapegoat in this situation and

Kessel shouldn’t be traded and I think Letang should be.. regardless .. his training..
his brain farts .. among other things will keep hurting this team than a durable winger who’s depth on wing position .. where Kessel was back checking before his little injuries in the reg season..
defense needs to be tweak and good tweak for balance offensive depth than Sheary ..
Depth reasonable backup goalie ..

I don’t see Sully here after his contract ends .. he isn’t on the same page with Rutherford at times..

He plays some players beyond their limitations that are one dimensional players. He tends to be not open to new players that can help the team at times like Jorris or Sprong with his personal bias. He give the wrong players longer leash than needed.
He put great players in wrong situations and ok good non experience players in great situations. He did it all season. He treated the lines like really bad with them constant line changes and Guentzel should’ve never been third line center with Kessel... Crosby was often frustrated like Kessel with his line and all season Crosby line was third line ..

Kessel and ok awful during the playoffs he should have put him with Sheahan long time ago.

I give kessel B- in the playoffs.. blame should fall in sully on the line up.. Hell he could’ve played more with Sid at times.. Brassard didn’t do well with kessel since ce he go to Pittsburgh..
You can say what you want about Kessel.. it look like he wanted to play hard for his team and he was put in bad spots to succeed late in this season with Brassard trade.. Brass and kessel never mesh well together..
I don’t think kessel put his iron man streak before the team because Sully has opportunity to scratch him and put in the Sprong line up.
Instead he played him because he didn’t want Sprong’s to play. Jorris could’ve play wing on the third line..

Regardless Sully’s good turn around with Tocchet to win 2 back to back cups .i believe Tocchet was a major part the success that made Sully look incredible..
Sully failed this reg season and post season.
Sully ‘s season was gargantuan F ..
It’s many reasons not to like Sully hell even question him with bad personnel decisions this season..

If he has issues with Geno and Sid.. then they should be traded before he’s fired.. I think not..

People gotta look beyond the 2 cups and see how it is with Sully. It seem like the player is getting all the blame instead Sully and Kessel .. to be fair..
Sully, Coaching Staff, Murray, Letang and beyond Kessel secondary scoring was no where to be found. Injuries,Bad changing and game plans cost them..

It carried over in the series with pens despite making to the playoffs from the reg season.. many things didn’t get fix nor did Coaching Staff take the blinders off for Defense and not giving players consistency to build really have that identity to go harder against teams in the playoffs..


Players won’t say it in interviews but they stop believing this season and key factors play into that..
like the coaching staff and not having key veteran players that hold players accountable behind Sid and Geno.. Letang didn’t deserve that ‘A’

Dude, the Penguins were exhausted, had $18 million of marquee players playing like ass and still came close to dumping on the Capitals.

Get the f*** out of here with this "Tocchet was the real mastermind" BS.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

No reason to trade Kessel unless its a deal too good to pass up. Every proposal Ive seen doesnt come close.

Next year maybe or the year after, depending on how things go. Will need to make some moves when Guentzel gets paid and if Sprong pans out he will get paid as well. Guentzel is becoming an elite player(those 2 playoff runs werent flukes) so we basically have a "big 3" if we were to move Kessel tomorrow. But theres still no reason to do it, unless its a ridiculous return. Helping us now and extending our window.

I want to see what this lineup(sheary out and sprong in) can do when healthy. And a full year of Brassard entering next years playoffs.

 

[Peat]

I don't get it?
Phil away from Sid-Geno 5-5 is the reason Phil works... he gets the easy match-ups.
Phil with Sid-Geno is the reason he got 92 points.. that pp.

Both things can be true. It can be true this ES points are boosted by getting easy match-ups from Sid & Geno taking easy match ups (although I'm not sure this is actually true and suspect he's scored at a higher pace when paired with Geno) and true that his PP points are boosted by playing with Sid & Geno, because those are two different scenarios.

Personally I'm of the opinion that replacing Kessel at ES would not be *that* hard and, if the guy coming in played a more complete game and was a natural LW, we'd do well out of it. You're noy doing that and getting much cheaper though.

But replacing him on the PP like for like is borderline impossible. Kessel as PP QB is what made us tick last season. We still have the RHS horses to run a really good PP, but not the one we just saw. That said... how many goals would it cost us a season? 10? How big a difference would it make in the play-offs?

 

[IcedCapp]

If there's genuinely some thought about trading Kessel, it's got nothing to do with his relationship with the coach, his playoffs or his ironman streak and everything to do with fear that his lack of dedication to conditioning will lead to him washing up early. He's obviously not washed up now, but if the Penguins wait until he is, they're probably afraid of being the one holding the $20 million grenade when it explodes (if the reports are true this is).

I'm not advocating that the Penguins trade him this summer (I'm uncomfortable with exploring these types of moves without knowing the return or the upside of the next guy in line...in this case Sprong), but I'd understand the thought process if it happened.

Warm Cookies will certainly be along tomorrow to say that when Letang loses his legs he'll be even worse than a washed up Kessel, because at least Kessel will still have a brain and a shot. That's probably true, but Rutherford may think that because Letang's a gym rat, that day's farther off than it is for Phil. Only time will tell if that's the case.

This is all IF the Penguins are actually thinking about trading Kessel.

 

[IcedCapp]

Both things can be true. It can be true this ES points are boosted by getting easy match-ups from Sid & Geno taking easy match ups (although I'm not sure this is actually true and suspect he's scored at a higher pace when paired with Geno) and true that his PP points are boosted by playing with Sid & Geno, because those are two different scenarios.

Personally I'm of the opinion that replacing Kessel at ES would not be *that* hard and, if the guy coming in played a more complete game and was a natural LW, we'd do well out of it. You're noy doing that and getting much cheaper though.

But replacing him on the PP like for like is borderline impossible. Kessel as PP QB is what made us tick last season. We still have the RHS horses to run a really good PP, but not the one we just saw. That said... how many goals would it cost us a season? 10? How big a difference would it make in the play-offs?

Hornqvist and Malkin make the PP tick

In fact, i think Phil is the least important member of the PP

Horny > Malkin > Schultz > Sid > RHS who can’t shoot one timers and defers too much despite having one of the best shots in the world

 

[Gurglesons]

Hornqvist and Malkin make the PP tick

In fact, i think Phil is the least important member of the PP

Horny > Malkin > Schultz > Sid > RHS who can’t shoot one timers and defers too much despite having one of the best shots in the world

I agree, and it sounds like we are discounting Kessel’s PP abilities, which I think we both are not.

It’s just with Crosby Malkin Schultz and Hornqvist you are arguably have a top five PP still.

 

[Gurglesons]

No reason to trade Kessel unless its a deal too good to pass up. Every proposal Ive seen doesnt come close.

Next year maybe or the year after, depending on how things go. Will need to make some moves when Guentzel gets paid and if Sprong pans out he will get paid as well. Guentzel is becoming an elite player(those 2 playoff runs werent flukes) so we basically have a "big 3" if we were to move Kessel tomorrow. But theres still no reason to do it, unless its a ridiculous return. Helping us now and extending our window.

I want to see what this lineup(sheary out and sprong in) can do when healthy. And a full year of Brassard entering next years playoffs.

I mean, there are reasons to do it if our management feels like this post season wasn’t a fluke.

 

[IcedCapp]

I agree, and it sounds like we are discounting Kessel’s PP abilities, which I think we both are not.

It’s just with Crosby Malkin Schultz and Hornqvist you are arguably have a top five PP still.

Yes, I’m a huge Kessel fan, and I don’t want him traded, but the PP argument for keeping him is the worst of them all. He’s an elite player. He makes them a deeper, better team. That’s all we need to know.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If there's genuinely some thought about trading Kessel, it's got nothing to do with his relationship with the coach, his playoffs or his ironman streak and everything to do with fear that his lack of dedication to conditioning will lead to him washing up early. He's obviously not washed up now, but if the Penguins wait until he is, they're probably afraid of being the one holding the $20 million grenade when it explodes (if the reports are true this is).

I'm not advocating that the Penguins trade him this summer (I'm uncomfortable with exploring these types of moves without knowing the return or the upside of the next guy in line...in this case Sprong), but I'd understand the thought process if it happened.

Warm Cookies will certainly be along tomorrow to say that when Letang loses his legs he'll be even worse than a washed up Kessel, because at least Kessel will still have a brain and a shot. That's probably true, but Rutherford may think that because Letang's a gym rat, that day's farther off than it is for Phil. Only time will tell if that's the case.

This is all IF the Penguins are actually thinking about trading Kessel.

You may be right about JR's take, but judging from the last couple seasons I'd say the figurative wheels are already falling off Letang. It isn't so much that he's gotten slower, but the rest of the league's gotten faster and he's processing plays more slowly...and he was hardly Einstein out there to begin with.

Maybe Tanger can cut down his gym time by half an hour a day and dedicate it to Lumosity or something.

My big areas of disagreement are when you're saying "a lot" or other phrases like that, because the difference isn't that big. Let's just say it's straight up Kessel for Saad (I'd want them to add more, but for simplicity), which of these is better? Kessel at ES, Kessel on the top PP and Schultz/Letang on the 2nd PP unit, or Saad at ES, Schultz and Letang both on the top PP unit and Sprong on the 2nd PP unit? The biggest downgrade there seems to be going from Letang/Schultz to Sprong on the 2nd powerplay unit. Saad and Kessel are a wash at ES and I think Letang would be very effective on the powerplay in Kessel's spot.

That would be where most of our disagreement comes from. I don't think Letang would come anything close to replacing Kessel in that role. He's never looked good there as far as I can remember, and I imagine that's mostly because of the gaping chasm in hockey IQ between he and Kessel. Phil scored 38 more PP points than Letang the last 2 years and that was when Letang was in a comfortable, familiar role. That is a huge downgrade any way you slice it - it's bigger than the PP difference between Crosby and Alec Martinez over the same period.

Could Alec Martinez replace Crosby on our PP?

Yes, Phil played 44 more games than Letang over that period, but that's part of the equation too. You can usually count on Kessel to be healthy and you can usually count on Letang to be injured.

Again, straight up? No, I wouldn't do that. I also don't think the downgrade warrants phrases like "the Penguins downgrade a lot" or "huge downgrades".

But we're not adding the sort of cap space that would allow us the wiggle room to add elsewhere. What's an extra $800,000 gonna buy you?

What kind of sweetener could the already-shallow Hawks possibly add to make up the difference? Maybe if they lost their minds and threw in DeBrincat.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That would be where most of our disagreement comes from. I don't think Letang would come anything close to replacing Kessel in that role. He's never looked good there as far as I can remember, and I imagine that's mostly because of the gaping chasm in hockey IQ between he and Kessel. Phil scored 38 more PP points than Letang the last 2 years and that was when Letang was in a comfortable, familiar role. That is a huge downgrade any way you slice it - it's bigger than the PP difference between Crosby and Alec Martinez over the same period.

Could Alec Martinez replace Crosby on our PP?

Yes, Phil played 44 more games than Letang over that period, but that's part of the equation too. You can usually count on Kessel to be healthy and you can usually count on Letang to be injured.

But the thing is that you don't need him to come close. It was a long time ago, but I don't remember Letang being a problem on the powerplay in that spot when Gonchar was here. Maybe it's just because Gonchar was such a good PPQB, but I don't remember having issues with Letang there. I also don't think keeping Kessel for his powerplay abilities is a strong argument, either. The Penguins can still have a really good powerplay unit without him, and I don't understand where this idea that "Kessel makes the Penguins powerplay elite" is coming from. The Penguins powerplay this year was phenomenal, yes, but the Penguins powerplay in the lockout season in 2013 and 2013-2014 were both better than what it was in 2016-2017, and those two teams didn't have Kessel. The Penguins powerplay in 2015-2016 was bad, it was the 4th worst powerplay that the Penguins have had in the Crosby era.

Basically, I feel like this talk that Kessel is what makes the powerplay click is just focusing way too much on this season and ignoring the other 2 seasons with Kessel. Even when ignoring when Mike Johnston was the coach since he was an offense killer, the Penguins powerplay only clicked at 20.0% under Sullivan in 2015-2016 and 23.1% in 2016-2017. The Penguins have had just as good, if not better, powerplays than that without Kessel pretty recently.

But we're not adding the sort of cap space that would allow us the wiggle room to add elsewhere. What's an extra $800,000 gonna buy you?

What kind of sweetener could the already-shallow Hawks possibly add to make up the difference? Maybe if they lost their minds and threw in DeBrincat.

I was trying to figure out the same, but I wouldn't call the Hawks "shallow". They're pretty deep in good young forwards, the issue is that the Penguins are too. Maybe Gustav Forsling could be an appealing second piece? He played 19 minutes a night for the Hawks this year and is a 21 year old defenseman. To be honest, I really doubt the Hawks are going to trade Saad anyway, so the discussion is probably moot.

 

[mpp9]

It’s not just about saving cap space. You’re trading for a player who’s closer in age to Guentzel than Kessel. A guy who has historically produced well at ES and has the type of game we could use next to Sid or Geno.

I like Hagelin, but eventually we’re gonna need to find someone who can score goals to slot in with Malkin. Ideally, someone who brings the speed and complementary game Hags does. Which is pretty much what Saad is. A Hossa lite.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Only thing i care about is getting Phil ready to run through a wall for you when the po's start in 2019.
If thats still doable, it'd be dumb to trade him.
Keeping in mind that Sully isn't going anywhere anytime soon so if there is a problem, it needs to be patched up.

 

[chethejet]

I would trade Kessel for Saad in a heat beat but Hawks are in rebuilding to some degree. I posted Kessel will be moved probably after this year with three years a favorable salary with 1.2 off set will be a attractive RW for someone. Letang with a full off season may just come back a better player. I hope so. Sprong should spend a month with Sid and work on his game for Sid to take advantage of his shot, speed and offensive game. Add Geno, Hags and Kessel with Reese, Brassard and Rust and that is three good lines.

 

[Turin]

If there's genuinely some thought about trading Kessel, it's got nothing to do with his relationship with the coach, his playoffs or his ironman streak and everything to do with fear that his lack of dedication to conditioning will lead to him washing up early. He's obviously not washed up now, but if the Penguins wait until he is, they're probably afraid of being the one holding the $20 million grenade when it explodes (if the reports are true this is).

I'm not advocating that the Penguins trade him this summer (I'm uncomfortable with exploring these types of moves without knowing the return or the upside of the next guy in line...in this case Sprong), but I'd understand the thought process if it happened.

Warm Cookies will certainly be along tomorrow to say that when Letang loses his legs he'll be even worse than a washed up Kessel, because at least Kessel will still have a brain and a shot. That's probably true, but Rutherford may think that because Letang's a gym rat, that day's farther off than it is for Phil. Only time will tell if that's the case.

This is all IF the Penguins are actually thinking about trading Kessel.

Yea that’s fair. But coming off his best season as a very.. unengaged player physically speaking, I’m not sure he’s due for a massive decline soon.

 

[PensandCaps]

Can't believe i see people okay with trading Kessel for a bunch of spare parts like Coyle+Zucker. Or Domi+Hammer.


Wow even 35 point Brandon Saad.


Insane.

Board has lost it's mind.

 

[Turin]

Can't believe i see people okay with trading Kessel for a bunch of spare parts like Coyle+Zucker. Or Domi+Hammer.

Insane.

Seriously. Posters pine for an elite winger, get one, and want to trade him for a Pascal Dupuis or two.

 

[PensandCaps]

Seriously, posters pine for an elite winger, gets one, and wants to trade him for a Pascal Dupuis or two.

Truly amazing. Kessel could get far more than spare parts. Especially with his contract at 6.8mil.

 

[Gurglesons]

Can't believe i see people okay with trading Kessel for a bunch of spare parts like Coyle+Zucker. Or Domi+Hammer.


Wow even 35 point Brandon Saad.


Insane.

Board has lost it's mind.

I don’t think it is that anyone is “okay” with it. It is just reality that Kessel is likely moved in the next couple years.

Why not win the trade long term? He won us two cups. It was a great trade, now it’s time to bring in some more cost effective options to lengthen our window.

 

[mpp9]

Can't believe i see people okay with trading Kessel for a bunch of spare parts like Coyle+Zucker. Or Domi+Hammer.


Wow even 35 point Brandon Saad.


Insane.

Board has lost it's mind.

Players have down seasons. We were questioning whether to go after Saad or Kessel three summers ago.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well, as much as I love Kessel, @billybudd is right: this team will have to, from a practical standpoint, start to seriously consider how close we are to the optimal moment to move Kessel. It’s better to be a day early than a day late on this

 

[Sideline]

Well, as much as I love Kessel, @billybudd is right: this team will have to, from a practical standpoint, start to seriously consider how close we are to the optimal moment to move Kessel. It’s better to be a day early than a day late on this

For me that really depends on how long you think the Sid/Geno window is going to be open. If it's 5 years maybe you can gamble and move Phil now with the thought that it opens more options for the roster 2 and 3 years from now. If the window is 3 years than moving Phil now is dumb.

 

[Gurglesons]

For me that really depends on how long you think the Sid/Geno window is going to be open. If it's 5 years maybe you can gamble and move Phil now with the thought that it opens more options for the roster 2 and 3 years from now. If the window is 3 years than moving Phil now is dumb.

I think Crosby and Malkin will be elite players for the next five years at least given Crosby just had the best playoff pace of his career and Malkin just had his best regular season in years.