Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not the same. Cole didn't have a place in the lineup, at least not a consistent one. Neal was a far more divisive player because of his attitude and reputation for bad penalties. Kessel is just weird.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't be shocked after all the smoke we've seen out there, even if I were disappointed. These sorts of stories have a habit of leaking out of Pittsburgh before someone's shipped out.

 

[Gurglesons]

For comparison's sake:

Production in the regular season this year:
Kessel: 92 points in 82 games
Coyle: 37 points in 66 games
Nino: 32 points in 63 games

Most recent playoff production:
Kessel: 9 points in 12 games (so bad that he's a potentially depreciating stock?)
Coyle: 2 points in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)
Nino: 1 point in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)

I really like both Coyle and (especially) Niederreiter, but we'd be taking a huge hit in terms of on-ice impact if he were dealt for either as the main piece this summer. Kessel is an elite player and the other two are not, simple as that. I'd be hesitant to move Kessel in any deal like that until we've gotten a better idea of how Sprong will perform at this level, no matter how tantalizing his potential is.

I’d be interested to see Nino and Coyle on Malkin or Crosby’s line.

Let’s not forget Kessel was really bad before he got here. And even to start off he was maligned by some fans.

I also think Nino brings some much needed physicality and Coyle is an all around player. The drop in points and the added defensive responsibility (i.e. PK) is something I like about them.

And I think Jake emerging as the player we hoped he would is huge in terms of being able to lose Kessel. I could easily see him top 60 next year and let’s be honest, he’s shown he can carry a line at wing.

Without Jake’s playoff performance this year, I’d be a 100% no on moving Kessel. At this point I’m luke warm to it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I’d be interested to see Nino and Coyle on Malkin or Crosby’s line.

Let’s not forget Kessel was really bad before he got here. And even to start off he was maligned by some fans.

I also think Nino brings some much needed physicality and Coyle is an all around player. The drop in points and the added defensive responsibility (i.e. PK) is something I like about them.

And I think Jake emerging as the player we hoped he would is huge in terms of being able to lose Kessel. I could easily see him top 60 next year and let’s be honest, he’s shown he can carry a line at wing.

I think either could work very well here. I just can't stomach cutting ties with Kessel after the only playoffs where he wasn't an absolute force out there, especially considering he was our best player in the regular season outside of Geno.

Jake emerging is huge, but I'd rather have Jake and Phil than Jake and Nino, all other things being equal. For me, Sprong is the X factor. He has a ton of skill and potential but I still want to see him do it (would have been nice to get a preview these playoffs...). We waited too long for a talent like Kessel to allow us to roll 3 lines again to give it up on a gamble, IMO.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think either could work very well here. I just can't stomach cutting ties with Kessel after the only playoffs where he wasn't an absolute force out there, especially considering he was our best player in the regular season outside of Geno.

Jake emerging is huge, but I'd rather have Jake and Phil than Jake and Nino, all other things being equal. For me, Sprong is the X factor. He has a ton of skill and potential but I still want to see him do it (would have been nice to get a preview these playoffs...). We waited too long for a talent like Kessel to allow us to roll 3 lines again to give it up on a gamble, IMO.

I think the aspect of pulling in a UFA D or creating more cap space to bring in another D, plus a first round pick (we haven’t had one in three years) is A huge part of moving Kessel out.

 

[The Greatest 101]

But again, why is this just a Sullivan problem when Kessel has a history of being a pain in the ass for numerous coaches? This isn't Sullivan being pissed at someone like Guentzel, Kessel has had issues like this stuff since before he was drafted.

I would say "Kessel should start being a better teammate", but he is what he is at this point.

He surely won't be pissed at a guy like Sheary.lol. I mean, I'm not saying Kessel and Cole are innocent, but when your coach clearly favors players not based on their actual play. That's the.problem.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It would be amazing if you can get both Niederreiter and Coyle from Minnesota, but I doubt they'd do both. It's not a crazy unrealistic suggestion, though. Coyle and Niederreiter for Kessel doesn't seem that far off in value. Maybe the Penguins throw in Sheary just to give them an extra forward, but I don't think that's too unreasonable. The problem is that both Coyle and Nino are RWers, I'm not sure if Nino can play both LW and RW. I don't think you can get Zucker and Coyle/Nino, but I think you might be able to get both Coyle and Nino. At that point, you actually probably improve just because you're getting an extra top-6 forward.

It's really hard to gauge Kessel's value because players of Kessel's caliber so rarely get traded. I think the best comparable we have is when Rick Nash was moved from Columbus, where he brought back Anisimov, Dubinsky and futures. Is Anisimov and Dubinsky about equal to Niederreiter and Coyle today? I'm honestly not sure. Anisimov at the time was a 23 year old 3C with 2C upside, and Dubinsky was a 26 year old 2C.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

I think the aspect of pulling in a UFA D or creating more cap space to bring in another D, plus a first round pick (we haven’t had one in three years) is A huge part of moving Kessel out.

I would say Subban but Mike Sullivan probably won’t like him either - because he isn’t a robot.

 

[The Greatest 101]

I would say Subban but Mike Sullivan probably won’t like him either - because he isn’t a robot.

Or Erik Karlsson, but the guy talks way too much. Sully probably won't like him. OEL? I guess not. He had problems with coach when he was a junior IIRC. What about Doughty?Does he have any black history?

 

[Shady Machine]

If Sully is already having problems with players 3 years into being here...hes the problem.

The team should stay intact for next year. See what they do when healthy. Injuries were the main reason. Guarantee this group could win it all again next year...if there wasnt a problem with the coach

Which is why I think this whole thing is being exaggerated. Sully probably gets pretty damn frustrated with Phil, but the dude put up 92 points and was a huge reason this team qualified won 2 cups and qualified for the playoffs this year when shot was looking mediocre halfway through.

Maybe Phil gets moved but I highly doubt JR loses a trade to move him because it’s a toxic situation.

 

[Shady Machine]

But Kessel being a nightmare for coaches is why Kessel might be dealt. Sullivan isn't just unfairly hating Kessel, Kessel is bringing it on himself because of the kind of person/professional he is.

Kessel has his reputation for a reason. I'm not going to blame Sullivan for having issues with Kessel when it is really well known how bad Kessel is for coaches.

Lol nightmare? Now you’re just making shit up

 

[robes1]

I would say Subban but Mike Sullivan probably won’t like him either - because he isn’t a robot.

Sadly, this might lead to the Pens downfall over the next few years, Sully creating a team identity of decent generic players to support Sid/Malkin. Instead of having unique players (like Kessel) contributing to the bigger picture, and having that diversity in skill throughout the lineup. Instead we will most likely have a bunch of robots who do as they're told.

 

[mpp9]

I’m warming up to the idea of Saad for Kessel.

Hawks are in that win now window. They badly need another source of offense. And Saad ain’t that type of player.

He could bring a lot of what Hagelin does but actually finish. Signed longterm and in his prime. You have a pretty good basis for Sid and Geno in terms of conplementary skill sets in Jake, Saad and Horny.

PP without Phil would take a hit. But that’s never been the key to our success. It’s overwhelming teams with speed and skill. Jake’s too good to leave off the first unit come playoff time. And you can always use Letang and Schultz as RHS options. Plus you have Sprong.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m warming up to the idea of Saad for Kessel.

Hawks are in that win now window. They badly need another source of offense. And Saad ain’t that type of player.

He could bring a lot of what Hagelin does but actually finish. Signed longterm and in his prime. You have a pretty good basis for Sid and Geno in terms of conplentary skill sets in Jake, Saad and Horny.

PP without Phil would take a hit. But that’s never been the key to our success. It’s overwhelming teams with speed and skill. Jake’s too good to leave off the first unit come playoff time. And you can always use Letang and Schultz as RHS options. Plus you have Sprong.

I think the loss of Kessel on the powerplay is being overstated to be honest. Letang has experience playing in Kessel's spot on the powerplay, he played there for 3 seasons when Gonchar was the head of the powerplay. I think a powerplay with Letang, Schultz, Crosby, Malkin and Hornqvist would still be very effective.

I like the concept of trading Kessel for Saad, but I want to know what else they're adding. Kessel outscored a healthy Saad by 57 points this year, Saad only had 35 points this year. I do think this season was just an anomaly, but he's still only a mid-50s point scorer. Then again, why would Kessel have more value than Panarin? Saad for Panarin was pretty close to a straight up swap, I don't think Motte and Forsberg had that much value. I think most people would agree that Chicago sold low on Panarin to get someone they're familiar with, but Panarin almost definitely had more value last summer than Kessel has this summer just because of his age.

Man, I'm just not sure. I think I might be underrating Saad, his point totals are low because he doesn't get that many powerplay points. In 2016-2017, Saad had 50 ES points and 53 points total. Panarin in that same year had 57 ES points. The year before, Saad was at 44 ES points and 53 totals points. I actually don't know if going from Kessel to Saad is much of a downgrade at ES. Saad outscored Kessel at ES last season by a lot despite finishing with 17 less points.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Do people want Saad because of his Pittsburg connection?

Saad isn’t any better than Nino and Nino is cheaper. I think Minny will be interested in Kessel too.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Each and every one of the players mentioned are huge downgrades from Kessel without providing any noteworthy cap savings (EDIT: Coyle does). Saad's only $800,000 cheaper than Kessel for crying out loud.

None of Coyle, Nino, or Saad cracked 40 points last year. Kessel had 92. You can wax about "ES points" but Kessel was the most productive PP player in the league. You can't simply ignore that and act like it isn't a hugely valuable skill that translates into wins.

People should ask Hawks fans how they feel about trading the productive, dynamic Panarin for the well-rounded Saad.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Do people want Saad because of his Pittsburg connection?

Saad isn’t any better than Nino and Nino is cheaper. I think Minny will be interested in Kessel too.

Ehhhhh I'm not sure about that. Saad is a monster producer at ES and is more proven to be a 50+ point player than Nino is. Saad over his entire career has averaged 42 ES points per 82 games, and that's a window where he was 20-25. Saad's ES totals are about right on par with guys like Forsberg, Oshie and Stone.

Each and every one of the players mentioned are huge downgrades from Kessel without providing any noteworthy cap savings. Saad's only $800,000 cheaper than Kessel for crying out loud.

People should ask Hawks fans how they feel about trading the productive, dynamic Panarin for the well-rounded Saad.

Saad isn't a huge downgrade from Kessel. The point isn't about being well rounded, Saad is just as good of a ES producer as Kessel is, and that's with including a down year for Saad. Don't believe that? Here's the stats since 2015-2016:

2015-2016: 25 ES goals and 44 ES points for Saad, 22 ES goals and 42 ES points for Kessel
2016-2017: 23 ES goals and 50 ES points for Saad, 15 ES goals and 40 ES points for Kessel
2017-2018: 17 ES goals and 34 ES points for Saad, 22 ES goals and 50 ES points for Kessel

Total: 65 ES goals and 128 ES points for Saad, 69 ES goals and 132 ES points for Kessel

 

[Shady Machine]

I love me some Warm Cookies. Keep up the good fight.

 

[Gurglesons]

Each and every one of the players mentioned are huge downgrades from Kessel without providing any noteworthy cap savings. Saad's only $800,000 cheaper than Kessel for crying out loud.

None of Coyle, Nino, or Saad cracked 40 points last year. Kessel had 92. You can wax about "ES points" but Kessel was the most productive PP player in the league. You can't simply ignore that and act like it isn't a hugely valuable skill that translates into wins.

People should ask Hawks fans how they feel about trading the productive, dynamic Panarin for the well-rounded Saad.

I’ll agree with you about Saad. I think judging Coyle and Nino on their season this year with their injuries and the up and down nature of Minnie is wrong.

Coyle and Nino almost cracked sixty in their career years where they are one year removed. And they did it playing on that Minnie roster which is basically devoid of elite talent. Sure, there is the chance they blow here like Perron, but I think they both play a more complete game and with Crosby or Malkin they easily hit 60.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you actually think Kessel's powerplay production is sustainable, I don't know what to tell you. Kessel had 42 powerplay points last season. His previous high was 30. He rode a historically good Penguins powerplay to a ton of points, but that's not sustainable. People need to be less lazy than just looking at raw point totals, what Kessel did this season flat out isn't reproduceable. He's a 70-75 point player for the Penguins, he's not a 90 point player.

I’ll agree with you about Saad. I think judging Coyle and Nino on their season this year with their injuries and the up and down nature of Minnie is wrong.

Coyle and Nino almost cracked sixty in their career years where they are one year removed. Sure, there is the chance they blow here like Perron, but I think they both play a more complete game and with Crosby or Malkin they easily hit 60.

Saad is better than Coyle and Niederreiter. He's been doing for 5 years what Coyle and Nino have done once. Niederreiter's best season was 57 points and he did that once. Coyle's best season was 56 points and he has done that once. Saad has had a pace of 48 or more points in all of his seasons in the NHL minus this year, almost all of which comes at ES.

Honestly, I think people underrate Saad on here because he's from Pittsburgh. People don't want to say they like him because they'll just be accused of wanting to add players who were born in Pittsburgh, so that makes him underrated on here. Saad is a really, really good player.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would say Subban but Mike Sullivan probably won’t like him either - because he isn’t a robot.

I don’t think Sullivan would have an issue with Subban. His issue is with players that coast. Kessel coasts. Subban is the weird enigma that Malkin is.

 

[Shady Machine]

Saad is too expensive. If I’m trading Kessel I want to get younger, deeper, and cheaper.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Kessel for Saad
Kessel for Nino and Coyle

Other than Saad fanboys, that should be an easy choice for anyone.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I’ll agree with you about Saad. I think judging Coyle and Nino on their season this year with their injuries and the up and down nature of Minnie is wrong.

Coyle and Nino almost cracked sixty in their career years where they are one year removed. Sure, there is the chance they blow here like Perron, but I think they both play a more complete game and with Crosby or Malkin they easily hit 60.

Coyle and Nino are fine players, but as of now those "near 60 point seasons" are single year anomalies. Neither of them have put up more than 42 points in any other season, so saying they both easily hit 60 points is pretty bold, especially since neither would be getting #1PP time. Hornqvist regularly put up better totals in Nashville than Coyle or Nino and he only cracked 50 points here once despite being on our top PP unit.

Conversely, outside of his rookie year, Kessel never put up fewer than 55 points. He's simply a much more dynamic offensive player.

If you actually think Kessel's powerplay production is sustainable, I don't know what to tell you. Kessel had 42 powerplay points last season. His previous high was 30. He rode a historically good Penguins powerplay to a ton of points, but that's not sustainable. People need to be less lazy than just looking at raw point totals, what Kessel did this season flat out isn't reproduceable. He's a 70-75 point player for the Penguins, he's not a 90 point player.

Saad is better than Coyle and Niederreiter. He's been doing for 5 years what Coyle and Nino have done once.

I don't think he'll score 42 PP points regularly, obviously. I do think he'll be a considerably better offensive player than any of the other players mentioned for years to come. A 70-75 point player is still a lot more than the alternatives would be posting here.

Let's not use the phrase "rode a historically good Pens PP", as though Kessel was riding coattails. He led the team in PP points this year, just like he did last year. Kessel was the main reason why the PP was historically good.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Saad is too expensive. If I’m trading Kessel I want to get younger, deeper, and cheaper.

This is a valid stance to take, the biggest problem with a Kessel for Saad trade is that the Penguins downgrade a little and don't really get anything else beyond that. You don't get any salary space to make any more changes beyond the swap, so it's kinda just a downgrade to get 5 years younger. That's why I'd want something else with Saad, but I don't know what that "something else" would be.

That's an interesting though, actually. How interested would people be in Connor Murphy from Chicago? He was the centerpiece of the Hjalmarsson trade, but he just hasn't worked out for Chicago. He was pretty effective for the Coyotes for the 2 years before he was traded. He's expensive and signed long term (4 years left at $3.85 million), but he's a RD and he'd definitely be able to anchor that bottom pair. This isn't Kessel related, it's just a name I saw on the Hawks roster. I think the contract might prohibit it, but the Penguins struck gold the last time they traded for a struggling Hawks defenseman who didn't fit with Chicago.

Kessel for Saad
Kessel for Nino and Coyle

Other than Saad fanboys, that should be an easy choice for anyone.

Where did I say I'd rather do Kessel for Saad over Kessel for Nino and Coyle? Why is Minnesota trading both while the Penguins are only getting Saad from Chicago? That seems like an insanely dumb comparison. I'd rather get both Coyle and Nino, but why is it straight up for 1 guy but the Penguins get 2 top-6ers for the other?

I don't think he'll score 42 PP points regularly, obviously. I do think he'll be a considerably better offensive player than any of the other players mentioned for years to come. A 70-75 point player is still a lot more than the alternatives would be posting here.

Let's not use the phrase "rode a historically good Pens PP", as though Kessel was riding coattails. He led the team in PP points this year, just like he did last year. Kessel was the main reason why the PP was historically good.

My big areas of disagreement are when you're saying "a lot" or other phrases like that, because the difference isn't that big. Let's just say it's straight up Kessel for Saad (I'd want them to add more, but for simplicity), which of these is better? Kessel at ES, Kessel on the top PP and Schultz/Letang on the 2nd PP unit, or Saad at ES, Schultz and Letang both on the top PP unit and Sprong on the 2nd PP unit? The biggest downgrade there seems to be going from Letang/Schultz to Sprong on the 2nd powerplay unit. Saad and Kessel are a wash at ES and I think Letang would be very effective on the powerplay in Kessel's spot.

Again, straight up? No, I wouldn't do that. I also don't think the downgrade warrants phrases like "the Penguins downgrade a lot" or "huge downgrades".

 

[AjaxTelamon]

None of the players in this discussion are comparable to Kessel offensively, and it's not particularly close. It absolutely would be a downgrade, and since the GM isn't in the business of downgrading the team, he won't do it. I don't care if they throw in an extra middle round pick or some 3rd pairing D man or bottom six player. Our best chance at a cup is next year, with Jake still inexpensive, and Hags still on the team. We trade Kessel, and our chances for next year take a big dip.

And if you think Kessel is riding coat-tails on our PP, Look at the conversion percentages. With him as the QB we're elite on the PP, without him we're merely good. And this team can't afford to be just good on the PP.