Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

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Shaffer

GuentzGoal
May 20, 2017
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The Penguins have spent way too much money on their defense to trade Kessel for a defenseman. Trading Kessel for a defenseman has to come after the Penguins trade a defenseman for a winger, I'm not going to be comfortable with adding a #2D or another top-4 D when they've already committed a ton of money to Maatta, Letang, Dumoulin and Schultz.
Our D would be stacked if we could fit a #2D using Kessel’s money. I don’t think money is an issue there. Plus, Hunwick or Sheary might be in the trade.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
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No.

Trade him because if a team offers a 24 - 28 year old 50 pt winger and a first round draft pick it makes us a better team over the next three or four years versus Kessel who will succumb to age and put up almost half of his points on the PP.

How does a 50 point player and a draft pick (which likely won't be a sure-fire top 5 pick) make the Pens better over the next 3 or 4 years?

I've seen a couple of deals that *may* help the Pens, like the Toffoli/Martinez one or the Bennett/Brodie one (ie. checks two boxes: top nine replacement plus a top four defender). But these deals where it's one 40 or 50 point winger plus a draft pick for Kessel? No way.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
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No.

Trade him because if a team offers a 24 - 28 year old 50 pt winger and a first round draft pick it makes us a better team over the next three or four years versus Kessel who will succumb to age and put up almost half of his points on the PP.

Trade him because roster turn over can bring in hungrier players.

Also, I’ll be happy if Letang and Kessel are Penguins next season. I think they are great players, I just completely understand if the Penguins move on from either of them.

Crosby, Malkin and Murray are much different cases. And Murray even isn’t someone I think the Pens have to absolutely keep.

The only way we can keep our Cup contention open by trading Kessel for a 50-point wing is if Sprong comes on...since Sully refused to play him so we could find anything out about Sprong, I think it would be irresponsible to trade him for Coyle or whomever and a complete disservice to Sid, G and the rest of the team, who are ready to win now....
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
46,230
The only way we can keep our Cup contention open by trading Kessel for a 50-point wing is if Sprong comes on...since Sully refused to play him so we could find anything out about Sprong, I think it would be irresponsible to trade him for Coyle or whomever and a complete disservice to Sid, G and the rest of the team, who are ready to win now....

I do find it a bit funny that the sentiment is Sprong can replace what Kessel brings when Sullivan probably hates Sprong for the exact same reasons he hates Kessel and Sprong won't get the ice time to replace what Kessel brings.
 
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Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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I do find it a bit funny that the sentiment is Sprong can replace what Kessel brings when Sullivan probably hates Sprong for the exact same reasons he hates Kessel and Sprong won't get the ice time to replace what Kessel brings.

I think it’ll be highly interesting to see if he starts out with the big club in October, how he plays and what Sully does with him...I hope he gets the chance JR told us he would....

EDIT...if Sully doesn’t give him a chance again, I may send myself to the crossroads....
 
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WayneSid9987

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Nov 24, 2009
30,053
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One things for sure and that is Sully isn't going anywhere anytime soon so if guys like Sid/G want Phil here cuz they know what they'd be losing, they need to hang on to him for dear life and tell Sully to ease up on their boy. If the goal here is to have Phil at the start of the playoffs next year ready to run through a wall for you, thats what i'd do if i were Sid and G and Tanger, i guess, too.
 

cheesedanish87

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
10,797
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How does a 50 point player and a draft pick (which likely won't be a sure-fire top 5 pick) make the Pens better over the next 3 or 4 years?

I've seen a couple of deals that *may* help the Pens, like the Toffoli/Martinez one or the Bennett/Brodie one (ie. checks two boxes: top nine replacement plus a top four defender). But these deals where it's one 40 or 50 point winger plus a draft pick for Kessel? No way.

Do you think Neal for Horny made the Pens a better team?

I do.

At the time of that trade Neal was a much better scorer then Horny.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,427
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San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Just not seeing it. It’s like trading $500 for $300 and a scratch off ticket.

No, it’s like trading $500 in stock for $300 cash and a scratch off ticket.

The stock can still depreciate. And Kessel does have a history of phoning it in. What else does he have to prove here? He followed up back to back Cups with his best regular season.

It is a risk, but I’d rather take the risk than have to watch Kessel’s legacy here turn ugly. And honestly every team in our division is going to get better again next year (outside the Caps) and we are going to get older.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
32,613
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Do you think Neal for Horny made the Pens a better team?

I do.

At the time of that trade Neal was a much better scorer then Horny.

We didn’t become contenders again until we added another forward who could produce his own offense.

Now having Brassard as the 3C and Jake with Sid, it’s not as huge of a need but we still would need another top 6 forward coming back in any Kessel trade. Or in some other move.
 
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Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
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Our D would be stacked if we could fit a #2D using Kessel’s money. I don’t think money is an issue there. Plus, Hunwick or Sheary might be in the trade.

But then you're spending a ton of money on your defense when you're really not in a position to be doing that. If Kessel gets dealt, I'd want it to be solely for wingers.

I like the idea of another Neal trade with him, you just have to get a better second piece than Spaling from the trade. I'm just not sure what teams could offer a good top-6 winger and a good 3rd line winger (or more) for Kessel. If I'm trading Kessel, I'd prefer a RW and a LW back personally, with the LW being top-6 caliber.

For example, Kessel to Chicago for Saad and Duclair is a type of package I'd be looking for. That's just an example before anyone gets mad. I'm not a fan of Duclair to be honest, if the Hawks still had Hartman, he's the guy I'd want with Saad for Kessel.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
49,999
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Rantanen + from COL would be more along the lines of what they should get if Phil is traded....or ideally Landeskog...
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
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Redmond, WA
Rantanen + from COL would be more along the lines of what they should get if Phil is traded....or ideally Landeskog...

Serious question: do you really think Colorado would do that? Rantanen had 8 less points than Kessel had this year, is nearly a decade younger and is a much stronger 2-way player. And you want them to add on top of him?
 

cheesedanish87

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
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Pittsburgh
We didn’t become contenders again until we added another forward who could produce his own offense.

Now having Brassard as the 3C and Jake with Sid, it’s not as huge of a need but we still would need another top 6 forward coming back in any Kessel trade. Or in some other move.

A top 6 winger(hopefully left wing) who can score 50-60 points and be a better well rounded player then Phil is what i'm hoping for.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
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Serious question: do you really think Colorado would do that? Rantanen had 8 less points than Kessel had this year, is nearly a decade younger and is a much stronger 2-way player. And you want them to add on top of him?

Nope, but that’s the value...Phil is proven, Landeskog has been up and down and Mikko just had one good year....
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,427
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San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
The only way we can keep our Cup contention open by trading Kessel for a 50-point wing is if Sprong comes on...since Sully refused to play him so we could find anything out about Sprong, I think it would be irresponsible to trade him for Coyle or whomever and a complete disservice to Sid, G and the rest of the team, who are ready to win now....

How?

Jake - Crosby - Hornqvist
Coyle - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Brassard - Sprong
ZAR - Sheahan - Sheary

That is still a championship quality roster and that is without any in season tweaks.

If Coyle hits his normal number and Sprong hits 10-15 goals that gives us the same production as last year. Brassard + a Coyle like player easily would replace Kessel’s production.

It also allows us to allocate cap space to address our defensive needs. And a pick which can bring in a player that we can potentially add into the roster as soon as that year.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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21,072
For me, it's likely Kessel was as hurt during the playoffs as he was during the home stretch of the regular season, but if he was insistent on playing through his injuries to keep his streak alive when it would have been better for him to rest and heal up for when the games mattered, then Sullivan refused to let people use injuries as an excuse when his playoff performance suffered.

You wanna play while hurt during the regular season just to keep your streak alive? Then you're not getting a pass from the coach if you don't get the job done when it counts. JR's less of a hardass.
 
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DesertedPenguin

Registered User
Mar 11, 2007
6,768
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This is an organization that preaches scoring up and down the lineup, that values three potent lines and a fourth line that can contribute.

They're not trading Kessel. Not this offseason, at least. If Sprong has a breakout season and the Pens need space to make a couple moves next summer, then maybe. I think Kessel has at least two years left in Pittsburgh, and that's with Sprong becoming a fixture in the lineup.

What if Sprong flames out? A lot of people here are just assuming he'll be productive.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,527
21,072
For comparison's sake:

Production in the regular season this year:
Kessel: 92 points in 82 games
Coyle: 37 points in 66 games
Nino: 32 points in 63 games

Most recent playoff production:
Kessel: 9 points in 12 games (so bad that he's a potentially depreciating stock?)
Coyle: 2 points in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)
Nino: 1 point in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)

I really like both Coyle and (especially) Niederreiter, but we'd be taking a huge hit in terms of on-ice impact if he were dealt for either as the main piece this summer. Kessel is an elite player and the other two are not, simple as that. I'd be hesitant to move Kessel in any deal like that until we've gotten a better idea of how Sprong will perform at this level, no matter how tantalizing his potential is.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,382
77,967
Redmond, WA
For me, it's likely Kessel was as hurt during the playoffs as he was during the home stretch of the regular season, but if he was insistent on playing through his injuries to keep his streak alive when it would have been better for him to rest and heal up for when the games mattered, then Sullivan refused to let people use injuries as an excuse when his playoff performance suffered.

You wanna play while hurt during the regular season just to keep your streak alive? Then you're not getting a pass from the coach if you don't get the job done when it counts. JR's less of a hardass.

I think this is a very fair and reasonable way to look at it. I could definitely see this being true.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,527
21,072
This is an organization that preaches scoring up and down the lineup, that values three potent lines and a fourth line that can contribute.

They're not trading Kessel. Not this offseason, at least. If Sprong has a breakout season and the Pens need space to make a couple moves next summer, then maybe. I think Kessel has at least two years left in Pittsburgh, and that's with Sprong becoming a fixture in the lineup.

What if Sprong flames out? A lot of people here are just assuming he'll be productive.

I wouldn't be so sure. I don't think it's a good idea barring JR going ham and signing Tavares or something, but there's a lot of smoke out there and we saw how things played out with guys like Neal and Cole.
 

DesertedPenguin

Registered User
Mar 11, 2007
6,768
7,507
For comparison's sake:

Production in the regular season this year:
Kessel: 92 points in 82 games
Coyle: 37 points in 66 games
Nino: 32 points in 63 games

Most recent playoff production:
Kessel: 9 points in 12 games (so bad that he's a potentially depreciating stock?)
Coyle: 2 points in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)
Nino: 1 point in 10 games (so good that he's cash money?)

I really like both Coyle and (especially) Niederreiter, but we'd be taking a huge hit in terms of on-ice impact if he were dealt for either as the main piece this summer. Kessel is an elite player and the other two are not, simple as that. I'd be hesitant to move Kessel in any deal like that until we've gotten a better idea of how Sprong will perform at this level, no matter how tantalizing his potential is.
Minnesota is exploring trading Niederreiter and Coyle precisely because their production has dipped. Why should they even be in the conversation if Kessel is to be moved?

2018 NHL trade candidates: 24 players who could get dealt this summer - Sportsnet.ca
 

DesertedPenguin

Registered User
Mar 11, 2007
6,768
7,507
I wouldn't be so sure. I don't think it's a good idea barring JR going ham and signing Tavares or something, but there's a lot of smoke out there and we saw how things played out with guys like Neal and Cole.
Not the same. Cole didn't have a place in the lineup, at least not a consistent one. Neal was a far more divisive player because of his attitude and reputation for bad penalties. Kessel is just weird.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,527
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Minnesota is exploring trading Niederreiter and Coyle precisely because their production has dipped. Why should they even be in the conversation if Kessel is to be moved?

2018 NHL trade candidates: 24 players who could get dealt this summer - Sportsnet.ca

Like I said, I don't like the idea of moving Kessel at all barring something crazy happening, but they're both good young players coming off down seasons. I can understand wanting to buy low on either of them. I'd love to have Nino here, in particular.
 
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