Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[WayneSid9987]

That is fine. The issue will come over the next two years when we have a completely empty farm and have to start losing players like Schultz and Hagelin to UFA.

Primary goal atm is to win Cups not re-stock the farm.

 

[Gurglesons]

Primary goal atm is to win Cups not re-stock the farm.

Our farm won us the last two cups.

And also allowed us to bring in Kessel.

Bringing in a 1st for Kessel allows us to move our 1st next year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Primary goal atm is to win Cups not re-stock the farm.

That's an extremely shortsighted way to look at it. You're basically advocating all in for this year and sacrificing everything after this year by saying this. This isn't even talking about trading Kessel for future assets like draft picks and prospects, this is talking about after next season and trading Kessel for younger top-6 players.

Not trading Kessel right now hurts your cup chances starting in 2019-2020, because Kessel is almost definitely being traded at the latest of next offseason.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But that's just the thing, swapping Sheary for Calvert really doesn't do anything for me. For what Sheary makes per year, you're not going to get anything that really makes much of a difference in free agency. I don't think that's much of an improvement, the issues I see with the Penguins right now are a middle-6 LWer (preferably a 2nd liner) and a #4 RD. I don't think you solve those problems by just swapping depth players. Getting a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Sheary really doesn't do anything because draft picks are just scratch off lottery tickets, and swapping Sheary for basically any UFA winger you can sign for his money doesn't move the needle at all. It's basically making no changes, it's a minimalist impact by swapping a bottom-6 skill player for a bottom-6 grinder.

We're going to have to disagree about the impact of making a switch like that. IMO, it would be similar to the Hagelin/Perron swap where you may lose something offensively, but you gain in versatility by moving out Sheary and bringing in Calvert.

There's also the ripple effect of having Calvert. It means they have a guy who can PK who doesn't suck at 5 on 5, so maybe the club doesn't feel the need to have to dress Kuhnhackl or Rowney for their PK ability and instead will dress someone with more skill.

It's even more true with moving Hunwick, because the best case scenario with moving Hunwick is that you just get rid of him. Those aren't any tangible changes, it's just getting rid of redundant players that the Penguins don't need.

I'm only including Hunwick because of his salary. I'm expecting absolutely zero value in return for him other than freeing up just over $2 million in cap space.

 

[Trade]

Sprong is a righty who can play Phil’s position on the left half board....

That said, I agree we shouldn’t trade Phil unless we’re getting a player or players back who can help us win immediately and make up for his offense....

Every year our core gets older our window of contention gets smaller...I don’t see how trading Phil keeps that window open unless we get a 1) younger wing who can put up at least between 50-60 points and 2) Sprong comes on really well and makes up the additional points we’re missing....this is why I’d rather wait to see how Sprong does this year before looking to trade Phil....

The only way I see Sprong starting on PP1 is if he has an insanely good camp and pre-season.

Sully won’t gift it to him in good faith.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We're going to have to disagree about the impact of making a switch like that. IMO, it would be similar to the Hagelin/Perron swap where you may lose something offensively, but you gain in versatility by moving out Sheary and bringing in Calvert.

There's also the ripple effect of having Calvert. It means they have a guy who can PK who doesn't suck at 5 on 5, so maybe the club doesn't feel the need to have to dress Kuhnhackl or Rowney for their PK ability and instead will dress someone with more skill.

It's a light beer version of swapping Hagelin for Perron. The problem here isn't that they're getting a different kind of player, the problem is that the players that they're swapping aren't very good. It's an insignificant difference because both are okay bottom-6 players. Sure, maybe Calvert in means they don't play Kuhnhackl, but they're just going to replace Kuhnhackl with someone who's not much better (aka Dominik Simon). You're talking about swapping 2 3rd liners and acting like that's going to make a big difference, it's just not. You're not improving, you're just getting a different kind of player.

I just don't see swapping one overpaid bottom-6 player for another as any sort of change that makes a difference. No, the difference comes when you swap overpaid bottom-6 players for younger bottom-6 players, like swapping Spaling and Winnik for Rust and Kuhnhackl. Those are the moves that actually make a difference. This? It's just getting a different player, there's no improvement there. Any sort of change is just marginal because he's a different type of player. It's the same way if the Penguins would sign someone like Roussel, who I like, and replace Sheary with him. It's just not going to make a difference, even if Roussel brings something the Penguins lack. He's just not good enough.

 

[Gurglesons]

We're going to have to disagree about the impact of making a switch like that. IMO, it would be similar to the Hagelin/Perron swap where you may lose something offensively, but you gain in versatility by moving out Sheary and bringing in Calvert.

There's also the ripple effect of having Calvert. It means they have a guy who can PK who doesn't suck at 5 on 5, so maybe the club doesn't feel the need to have to dress Kuhnhackl or Rowney for their PK ability and instead will dress someone with more skill.



I'm only including Hunwick because of his salary. I'm expecting absolutely zero value in return for him other than freeing up just over $2 million in cap space.

If we aren’t moving our Letang or Kessel this off season I think we have two main things to do.

Bringing in a top four D with Maatta as the piece. (Judging by Yohe’s comments this summer this won’t happen.)

And bring in a Calvert or Roussel to play on the third or fourth line.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Phil just had his best regular season and people think he'll just drop off a cliff in the next 2-3 years.
As long as he's happy being here, you'd be wrong.

 

[Gurglesons]

Phil just had his best regular season and people think he'll just drop off a cliff in the next 2-3 years.
As long as he's happy being here, you'd be wrong.

I would argue Phil’s best year was one of our main team issues. Too much dependency on power play production and hot weeks from Malkin, Crosby and Kessel.

I don’t think anyone is arguing Kessel is still a great player. Just the allocated cap and his value is what is enticing about some of the offers we may receive.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Phil just had his best regular season and people think he'll just drop off a cliff in the next 2-3 years.
As long as he's happy being here, you'd be wrong.

Literally no one has said this. But even if people were saying that, it's a very fair question to ask based on Kessel's seemingly indifferent attitude

I really don't expect why people are thinking Kessel will be here long term. I'd be shocked for him to be here after next offseason. The Penguins just aren't going to use a protection slot on him in the next expansion draft, which is scheduled to happen in the 2020 offseason. Unless you want to trade him for pennies on the dollar in 2020 (and that may even be a best case scenario type of return), the smart time to move him is either this offseason or next offseason. His value is at his peak right now, but you get 1 extra run out of him if you wait until next offseason. That's the question here.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's a light beer version of swapping Hagelin for Perron. The problem here isn't that they're getting a different kind of player, the problem is that the players that they're swapping aren't very good. It's an insignificant difference because both are okay bottom-6 players. Sure, maybe Calvert in means they don't play Kuhnhackl, but they're just going to replace Kuhnhackl with someone who's not much better (aka Dominik Simon). You're talking about swapping 2 3rd liners and acting like that's going to make a big difference, it's just not. You're not improving, you're just getting a different kind of player.

I just don't see swapping one overpaid bottom-6 player for another as any sort of change that makes a difference. No, the difference comes when you swap overpaid bottom-6 players for younger bottom-6 players, like swapping Spaling and Winnik for Rust and Kuhnhackl. Those are the moves that actually make a difference. This? It's just getting a different player, there's no improvement there. Any sort of change is just marginal because he's a different type of player. It's the same way if the Penguins would sign someone like Roussel, who I like, and replace Sheary with him. It's just not going to make a difference, even if Roussel brings something the Penguins lack. He's just not good enough.

Then we just fundamentally see the Penguins' issues differently. You seem to think a big change is needed, while I think even a minor one that involves moving out a one dimensional player for a more versatile one would help a lot.

Obviously, I'd love to bring in another top four defender or find a legitimate top six winger for Malkin. Of course that would be huge. But I also think you can tinker and bring in the "right" players for the bottom six that could have a pretty nice impact as well.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Then we just fundamentally see the Penguins' issues differently. You seem to think a big change is needed, while I think even a minor one that involves moving out a one dimensional player for a more versatile one would help a lot.

Obviously, I'd love to bring in another top four defender or find a legitimate top six winger for Malkin. Of course that would be huge. But I also think you can tinker and bring in the "right" players for the bottom six that could have a pretty nice impact as well.

I don't think they need big changes, I just think their needs are bigger than swapping redundant bottom-6 players for other redundant bottom-6 players. There's a middle ground between trading Kessel and trading Sheary, that's where I'm at. Again, that's why I think trading Rust is something that's worth looking into this offseason. Rust is that middle ground, where it's not a ground breaking change but you can also get a player that you need by trading him. You can get that tweener 2nd/3rd line LWer by trading Rust. Trading Sheary doesn't address your needs, and trading Kessel is overkill for addressing your needs.

I don't think the Penguins need another bottom-6 LWer. They already have Hagelin and ZAR who should be playing every single day as the bottom-6 wingers. Both of those guys are regular PKers, too. I don't see what trading Sheary and signing Roussel does for the Penguins, I just don't see it. I don't see those players as an upgrade on who the Penguins already have. No, if I'm dipping into free agency, I'm giving Rick Nash a call or I'm looking at throwing an offersheet at Zucker or Hertl.

 

[Gurglesons]

Then we just fundamentally see the Penguins' issues differently. You seem to think a big change is needed, while I think even a minor one that involves moving out a one dimensional player for a more versatile one would help a lot.

Obviously, I'd love to bring in another top four defender or find a legitimate top six winger for Malkin. Of course that would be huge. But I also think you can tinker and bring in the "right" players for the bottom six that could have a pretty nice impact as well.

I think you could do that and open yourself up to more issues cap wise as well.

As much as people hate Sheary he was still on of our top four goal scorers in terms of wings.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think they need big changes, I just think their needs are bigger than swapping redundant bottom-6 players for other redundant bottom-6 players. There's a middle ground between trading Kessel and trading Sheary, that's where I'm at. Again, that's why I think trading Rust is something that's worth looking into this offseason. Rust is that middle ground, where it's not a ground breaking change but you can also get a player that you need by trading him. You can get that tweener 2nd/3rd line LWer by trading Rust. Trading Sheary doesn't address your needs, and trading Kessel is overkill for addressing your needs.

I don't think the Penguins need another bottom-6 LWer. They already have Hagelin and ZAR who should be playing every single day as the bottom-6 wingers. Both of those guys are regular PKers, too. I don't see what trading Sheary and signing Roussel does for the Penguins, I just don't see it. I don't see those players as an upgrade on who the Penguins already have. No, if I'm dipping into free agency, I'm giving Rick Nash a call or I'm looking at throwing an offersheet at Zucker or Hertl.

We need more players like Rust, though, not less. The reason why I think trading Sheary makes more sense is because I think we need to move out guys who are one dimensional (and aren't even consistent with that one dimension) in favor of guys who can actually contribute when they're not scoring.

Trading Rust but keeping Sheary is not something I can ever agree makes sense for this club. Because no matter who you return for Rust, you're basically swapping a RW Rust for a LW Rust, and you've still got Sheary playing a top nine role on this club (which I don't think we should have).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

As much as people hate Sheary he was still on of our top four goal scorers in terms of wings.

But that's all he brings to the table. And at the end of the day, he only scored 30 points this year. A one dimensional player needs to produce more than 18 goals and 30 points to justify his spot on the roster. Especially when we've already got potentially two or three (depending if Simon or Sprong are in the Pens' plans) one dimensional wingers already.

I just don't think a team can carry that many small-ish, soft-ish, one dimensional wingers. Especially when they're not high-end offensive weapons.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not advocating keeping Sheary, I'm just saying that only moving Sheary is basically doing nothing this offseason. You don't address your needs at all if your only moves of the summer involve trading Sheary. Sheary should be traded because he's redundant with who the Penguins already have, but if that's your big move for the summer, you're basically doing nothing with this team. The Penguins in my eyes need a 2nd line LWer and a #4 RD. You won't get that by trading Sheary and Hunwick, you're going to have to give up something more to actually address the needs of the team.

I'm going to be upset with the offseason if their only plan is to trade Sheary and Hunwick and sign guys like Calvert and Enstrom in free agency. Those moves just don't make any sort of tangible difference for me. Sure, you might improve, but the improvement is going to be marginal. I'm going to read that as JR wasn't trying to improve the team if that's all he does. If it was up to me, I'd want the lineup opening next year to be something like:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
LW version of Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Brassard-Sprong
ZAR-Sheahan-Speedy RWer

 

[Trade]

Outside of our top line, most of the players did not play to their abilities this POs including Murray....but people need to start giving the Caps their due....it really was more the Caps playing very tight team defense and boxing out in front of Holtby that led to them taking the series....

I agree with everything here.

The Caps defense didn’t give up many second chance opportunities at all. People can talk about Kessel all they want, but he still had 9 points. What about Rust who was essentially invisible after the Philly series, Sheary with 2 points adding pretty much nothing else. I can admit, Sheary wasn’t even that bad because was one of the players actually skating and giving it his all every shift. Sheary’s “all” isn’t going to win us a playoff series though. What about “Big Game” Brassard? What about Murray who again played well quite a bit even in his worst games, just wasn’t making the timely saves as cliche as that sounds.

I’m not completely opposed to trading Kessel, but I feel a little suspicious about all this media trade Kessel talk when everyone else was talking about trading Letang at the end of the season. The media clearly loves Letang but we won a Cup without him just be last year.

 

[Turin]

I'm not advocating keeping Sheary, I'm just saying that only moving Sheary is basically doing nothing this offseason. You don't address your needs at all if your only moves of the summer involve trading Sheary. Sheary should be traded because he's redundant with who the Penguins already have, but if that's your big move for the summer, you're basically doing nothing with this team. The Penguins in my eyes need a 2nd line LWer and a #4 RD. You won't get that by trading Sheary and Hunwick, you're going to have to give up something more to actually address the needs of the team.

I'm going to be upset with the offseason if their only plan is to trade Sheary and Hunwick and sign guys like Calvert and Enstrom in free agency. Those moves just don't make any sort of tangible difference for me. Sure, you might improve, but the improvement is going to be marginal. I'm going to read that as JR wasn't trying to improve the team if that's all he does.

So basically, this team needs a lot of improvement on its current roster in order for you to be happy, even though one of Las Vegas or Washington is winning the Cup. Nevermind if there aren’t actually other deals that make the team better out there..

I’ll be happy with some selblance of goaltending and a greater attention to detail next year with a similar roster.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I really hope this team doesn't get complacent with changes. I like that there are some young guys that they are going to push and a fresh new Euro that hasn't had any old timey disease, yet.

But I would love to see this team move on from Kuhnhackl, add Roussel (some sand paper on that 4th line, we need a "shift disturber" that takes a regular shift, "goons" never work out yet, regulars that play with an edge do).

I'd love for the team to shuffle the assistant coaches, but I feel like they'll never do that when they should.
I would also like to see them add a veteran back up, maybe move one of DeSmith or Jarry for a good defense prospect as well as looking at who we have on D and how to make that better or a better fit.

Also, move Sheary.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Need to have a good offseason to make up for this past year. Alot went wrong...yet they still could have gotten to the ECF if not for some breakdowns.

Starting with losing Fleury( yeah it had to happen, but making a point we didnt have 1a and 1b tandem anymore).

Then trading our first round pick for Reaves, because they were pissed at the league for what happened during the playoffs. That was a "f*** you" to the league trade, nothing else. Lost out on some good prospects(Kostin, Timmins, Hague, Lind, etc) because of it.

Losing Cullen. Really could have used him for one more year. He still had it. Would have been perfect for us, given the injuries. May have even helped get production out of the younger guys.

Bonino, Kunitz, and Daley were 3 more vets ...alot to lose in one year.

Trade deadline had a bad feel to it. Landed the big name, but lost Cole(as much as people want to joke about him, he did help the defense). Traded Reaves(who now looking back, would have loved to see in that Caps series). And another first round pick.

Kessel getting hurt as soon as we get Brassard. Them never really gelling together. And then Brassard getting hurt.

Murray going thru his problems.

Playoffs start...had some issues but Guentzel and Crosby were unreal. However we lose Hagelin and Malkin who were by far our best duo in Jan/Feb. Still almost beat the Caps, had leads in the 3rd in 2 of those games we lost. Didnt get production from the young guys and others who were hurt.

Bad year all around.

So, they need to be careful this offseason. I wouldnt try to make up for it with a big trade(Kessel) that could backfire. Brassard, Sheahan, Oleksiak will have more experience. Simon and ZAR as well, we will find out if one or two are apart of this team going forward. Sprong entering lineup. Maybe Blueger.

Last time we made a big trade after a couple of playoff losses it backfired. Even tho it was Shero who traded Staal.

Just stay the course another year. Kessel's value wont drop off a cliff if we decide to move him next year instead of this one.

I want to see what this roster does when healthy. And Sprong added to the lineup finally. Move Sheary, add to the defense. And add a vet or two at the deadline if our young guys arent doing much.

 

[Gurglesons]

Need to have a good offseason to make up for this past year. Alot went wrong...yet they still could have gotten to the ECF if not for some breakdowns.

Starting with losing Fleury( yeah it had to happen, but making a point we didnt have 1a and 1b tandem anymore).

Then trading our first round pick for Reaves, because they were pissed at the league for what happened during the playoffs. That was a "**** you" to the league trade, nothing else. Lost out on some good prospects(Kostin, Timmins, Hague, Lind, etc) because of it.

Losing Cullen. Really could have used him for one more year. He still had it. Would have been perfect for us, given the injuries. May have even helped get production out of the younger guys.

Bonino, Kunitz, and Daley were 3 more vets ...alot to lose in one year.

Trade deadline had a bad feel to it. Landed the big name, but lost Cole(as much as people want to joke about him, he did help the defense). Traded Reaves(who now looking back, would have loved to see in that Caps series). And another first round pick.

Kessel getting hurt as soon as we get Brassard. Them never really gelling together. And then Brassard getting hurt.

Murray going thru his problems.

Playoffs start...had some issues but Guentzel and Crosby were unreal. However we lose Hagelin and Malkin who were by far our best duo in Jan/Feb. Still almost beat the Caps, had leads in the 3rd in 2 of those games we lost. Didnt get production from the young guys and others who were hurt.

Bad year all around.

So, they need to be careful this offseason. I wouldnt try to make up for it with a big trade(Kessel) that could backfire. Brassard, Sheahan, Oleksiak will have more experience. Simon and ZAR as well, we will find out if one or two are apart of this team going forward. Sprong entering lineup. Maybe Blueger.

Last time we made a big trade after a couple of playoff losses it backfired. Even tho it was Shero who traded Staal.

Just stay the course another year. Kessel's value wont drop off a cliff if we decide to move him next year instead of this one.

I want to see what this roster does when healthy. And Sprong added to the lineup finally. Move Sheary, add to the defense. And add a vet or two at the deadline if our young guys arent doing much.

We made the ECF after moving Staal and Dumoulin was worth basically him.

It is why moving Kessel now when you can get a 1st, roster player and maybe a 3rd piece you have a chance to win that trade.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Primary goal atm is to win Cups not re-stock the farm.

Yeah, no.

Primary goal is to win cups and also maintain a team that can continue to win cups and that means re-stocking the farm because that's where you are going to re-stock the team when the cap hits go up and the cap space gets tight. You don't keep winning without also focusing on that farm system and continuing to add to it. You wouldn't get the Guentzel's and what not coming up from the system if you don't keep adding to it.

I think right now, the farm system is pretty brutal for defense prospects and the team is really feeling it, we would have been much better off if we had a PMD prospect in the AHL that was ready to get a call up, or even a physical one that can play a 3rd pairing PK role, but we didn't see that. Even Corrado who is half decent wasn't even given a shot, so how about they get the ones that they do want to give a shot. I am happy they added Riikola, but man they need to add like 3-4 more.

The addition of the College kids and some other prospects is awesome, but man could we use more defense prospects and I hope JR keeps doing that as well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And in 2014, Malkin missed 22 games, Neal missed 23 games and Letang missed 43 games. And seeing what Crosby did in the playoffs, I honestly don't buy that he can't do what he did in 2013-2014 anymore. The Penguins had the 3rd best powerplay of their history with a powerplay unit that had Niskanen and Jokinen playing a lot on the top unit.

You can "not buy it", but the fact remains that Crosby simply isn't the same player offensively as he was in 2013, a great couple of playoff rounds notwithstanding (sample size yo). Just so we're all keeping track, in order to justify this trade you're counting on a) Crosby returning to the offensive form of 5 years ago for a full season, b) Saad returning to at least the form of 2 years ago, and c) Kessel regressing to the form of 2 years ago. That's a lot of variables you're counting to swing your way.

We'd still have a good PP without Kessel, but there's nothing to suggest it would be nearly as good. You can't simply swap out the best PP producer in the league with a rookie or a displaced defenseman and assume that it isn't going to take a significant hit.

I think there are 2 really clear reasons to keep Kessel: he's an elite player and he can create offense on his own, specifically the second one being a really big one. A lot of the players suggested can't create on their own. People making this about the powerplay are just trying to find other reasons to justify keeping him. The Penguins powerplay doesn't need Kessel to be effective, they have shown that time and time again. That's just the reality of it, the Penguins can have a powerplay click at 23% with Crosby and Malkin. It's just a weak argument to cite the powerplay as a reason to keep Kessel, the Penguins will still have one of the best powerplays in the league without him.

They're all good reasons to keep Kessel barring a crazy return. Saad plus ain't it.

Because waiting a summer may be the difference between getting a legit top-6 forward back for Kessel or getting a futures based return for Kessel.

Given Kessel's established standard here and the returns being discussed, the far greater risk is giving up a legitimate game-breaking talent for a far lesser player well before we have to. You'd better make sure you've exhausted every single possibility before you pull the trigger on something like that, and I don't think we've even scratched the surface.

For the 3rd time, ask Hawks fans how they feel about having moved Panarin for Saad. Got a feeling they'd reverse that trade in a microsecond if given the chance.

The issue isn’t Kessel is going to fall off a cliff. It is if we can afford spending over 25 million in three players while retaining Rust, Hornqvist, Murray, and Jake and still being able to ice a competitive line-up.

It’s also some distinct attitude issues that have obviously been floated to the media.

Seems to me those same issues were present when he tore the league a new one in consecutive playoffs en route to 2 Cups. They're important now but they weren't then because...he played while hurt this year instead of resting, I guess?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It definitely would hurt their chances this year, it's just a question of how many runs do you think they have left? Next year is a big one because they have Brassard and Hagelin, and Guentzel on an ELC, but keeping him next year may make winning in the next few years much more difficult.

It's not a black and white answer. I think you hurt your chances in the long run (as in 2 or 3 years from now) by not selling high on Kessel right now, but you hurt your chances next year by selling high on Kessel right now. How important is still having Brassard and Hagelin to you? Trading Kessel now kinda makes the Brassard trade wasted.

For me, it is black and white: We need to maximize our chances now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

For the record, I don't think we need to add anything to the forward group this summer. Like, nothing.

Get rid of useless Sheary and give the kids their shot. Get rid of Hunwick. Both moves will open up some cap space that we can use at the deadline to shore up whatever weaknesses pop up over the course of the year. And ideally, move Letang in the sort of move that I've advocated for earlier.

Kessel hasn't been a problem here. Letang has. Fix what's broke and don't try to fix what ain't broke.