Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Empoleon8771]

If Sully is already having problems with players 3 years into being here...hes the problem.

The team should stay intact for next year. See what they do when healthy. Injuries were the main reason. Guarantee this group could win it all again next year...if there wasnt a problem with the coach

Why is it Sullivan's fault that he's having problems with players who have had issues with other coaches in the past? Kessel has a "coach killer" reputation for a reason, you know. Cole also had issues with the St. Louis coaches when he was there too iirc.

 

[Born and Raised]

If Sully is already having problems with players 3 years into being here...hes the problem.

The team should stay intact for next year. See what they do when healthy. Injuries were the main reason. Guarantee this group could win it all again next year...if there wasnt a problem with the coach

A coach that just got you two cups is your problem - are you serious?

Yikes, some of you Pitt fans seem to forget how insane of a turn around Sullivan did to this team from when he joined - Out of a playoff race to two straight cups and now one elimination and a few rumors and hes the problem?

Yeah, no.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sullivan needs to suck it up instead of driving Kessel out of town. Not everyone has to play like his pet Kuhnhackl or Rowney.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sullivan needs to suck it up instead of driving Kessel out of town. Not everyone has to play like his pet Kuhnhackl or Rowney.

But again, why is this just a Sullivan problem when Kessel has a history of being a pain in the ass for numerous coaches? This isn't Sullivan being pissed at someone like Guentzel, Kessel has had issues like this stuff since before he was drafted.

I would say "Kessel should start being a better teammate", but he is what he is at this point.

 

[robes1]

Why is it Sullivan's fault that he's having problems with players who have had issues with other coaches in the past? Kessel has a "coach killer" reputation for a reason, you know. Cole also had issues with the St. Louis coaches when he was there too iirc.

While I don't think the entire blame should be cast on Sully, it certainly doesn't look good on him. You have a guy who put up 92 points this year, who was a major contributor to the B2B cups, I don't feel like you just toss him so easily. One would hope that the coaching staff would be able to handle a player like that, atleast Tocchet was able to do that well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But again, why is this just a Sullivan problem when Kessel has a history of being a pain in the ass for numerous coaches? This isn't Sullivan being pissed at someone like Guentzel, Kessel has had issues like this stuff since before he was drafted.

Because Sullivan being pissy about it seems like it might result in Kessel being dealt. Kessel isn't the one trying to get Sullivan fired.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because Sullivan being pissy about it seems like it might result in Kessel being dealt. Kessel isn't the one trying to get Sullivan fired.

But Kessel being a nightmare for coaches is why Kessel might be dealt. Sullivan isn't just unfairly hating Kessel, Kessel is bringing it on himself because of the kind of person/professional he is.

Kessel has his reputation for a reason. I'm not going to blame Sullivan for having issues with Kessel when it is really well known how bad Kessel is for coaches.

 

[Andy99]

I don't think anyone is really pushing Phil out the door, just sorta discussing things.


Friedman listed Calgary as a potential landing spot for Phil, because of their need for offense from the wings. Hamilton makes a ton of sense because of our dire need to fix the blueline, his reported unhappiness or at the very least lack of a fit in Calgary, and the fact that he's exactly what we should be looking for in a blueliner. If the trade was centered around Phil for Hamilton, minor pieces added on either side to balance things out accordingly, would you pull the trigger? I love Phil, but that's a deal I'd probably make. It also makes moving Letang much more palatable, depending on the return he brings (which I'd imagine would be significant, warts and all).

I don't think anything big happens this summer, but I wouldn't be upset if JR tried to get ahead of a potentially huge problem by moving one or both of Phil and Letang. I think Phil's a more integral part of this team's success, as we live and die by our forward depth and production, but if he's been at odds with Sully for multiple seasons and it's not improving, it might be in our best interest to move him for a big return before A. the wheels fall off and his value subsequently drops, or B. Sully is fired and Phil's "coach killer" tag is made much worse, hampering his value.

No, I wouldn’t be interested in that trade because I think it would set off a chain reaction whereby we’d need to get rid of a top 4 D man too...I don’t think they’ll get value for Letang, so they’ll likely have to move Maatta...now the team’s going thru a substantial rebuild...I don’t think that should happen until contracts going out and/or poor PO performances or failure to make the POs necessitate it...this year, JR should be looking to add young, better depth players if possible....next year, imo with Hags and Brass possibly coming off the books and Jake needing a raise, is a better time to do a larger retooling....I do think we have to stop looking for trades with term that net us 30+ aged players...that’s why I wouldn’t re-sign Hags or Brass...the Pens will need to start trading off older assets for younger ones and start keeping their draft picks soon, and Id say as soon as next year if they don’t win it again...but I think the team is well positioned for next year and I hope JR doesn’t do anything with the key players unless things look bad by the TDL....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But Kessel being a nightmare for coaches is why Kessel might be dealt. Sullivan isn't just unfairly hating Kessel, Kessel is bringing it on himself because of the kind of person/professional he is.

How is Kessel being a nightmare? Because he freewheels a bit or doesn't back check as hard as Sullivan would like? More difficult to coach than some players because he tends to march to his own beat at times, but if he was that much of a disruption then we wouldn't have won two straight Cups and him being a total dick would have resulted in multiple early exits during his time in Pittsburgh.

It just seems like Sullivan refuses to adjust for minor quirks or eccentricities players have, and expects them all to act like 4th line grinders who do exactly what coaches tell them and never deviate from the script.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Good Lord this has been blown out of proportion.

Here's what likely happened: Kessel had multiple injuries that affected his play. They weren't broken bones or torn ligaments, but had a cumulative impact. Kessel decides to play through the pain and other effects, which is why Sullivan said Kessel wasn't that injured at the end of the season.

Rutherford, who is more sympathetic and takes the longer view on things as a GM should, is more diplomatic and says the injuries probably had an impact.

It's the classic case of three people involved in the same situation but having different perspectives. Cooler heads will prevail. Kessel will be here in the fall, he'll have a strong season, and if he and the rest of the team stays healthy, he'll play a huge role in next year's postseason.

 

[Turin]

Kessel isn’t a nightmare for Sullivan, they don’t have 2 Cups without each other. Melodramatic nonsense.

 

[Born and Raised]

How is Kessel being a nightmare? Because he freewheels a bit or doesn't back check as hard as Sullivan would like? More difficult to coach than some players because he tends to march to his own beat at times, but if he was that much of a disruption then we wouldn't have won two straight Cups and him being a total dick would have resulted in multiple early exits during his time in Pittsburgh.

It just seems like Sullivan refuses to adjust for minor quirks or eccentricities players have, and expects them all to act like 4th line grinders who do exactly what coaches tell them and never deviate from the script.

Not true at all - every sport has multiple examples of locker room cancers who win championships and yet are still problem childs. NFL especially.

I doubt very much a coach who is very much in line with Crosby's thinking and having just won two cups is going to be moved because Kessel is a great player. and doesnt agree with him

 

[robes1]

But Kessel being a nightmare for coaches is why Kessel might be dealt. Sullivan isn't just unfairly hating Kessel, Kessel is bringing it on himself because of the kind of person/professional he is.

Kessel has his reputation for a reason. I'm not going to blame Sullivan for having issues with Kessel when it is really well known how bad Kessel is for coaches.

I'm not sure you can call someone who puts up 90+ pts, who is a proven playoff performer (minus this year, injuries?), and from all accounts a likeable guy in the locker room a "nightmare" regardless of their habits.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not true at all - every sport has multiple examples of locker room cancers who win championships and yet are still problem childs. NFL especially.

I doubt very much a coach who is very much in line with Crosby's thinking and having just won two cups is going to be moved because Kessel is a great player. and doesnt agree with him

Where did I say Sullivan should be removed? I said he should suck it up and realize Kessel doesn't have to play like Crosby (ie. hard working, more attentive to all aspects of the game) in order to contribute.

I'd personally rather both Sullivan and Kessel stick around. I just don't know why people seem to think Kessel is the only issue here, and not Sullivan's unwillingness to bend when it comes to guys who aren't known for their two-way play (ie. Kessel, Sprong).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

A coach that just got you two cups isnt your problem - are you serious?

Yikes, some of you Pitt fans seem to forget how insane of a turn around Sullivan did to this team from when he joined - Out of a playoff race to two straight cups and now one elimination and a few rumors and hes the problem?

Yeah, no.

I can see both sides. I agree entirely that Sully has done an incredible job turning things around after half a decade of stagnation, complacency and underwhelming results of the Bylsma-era of coaching. It's no small task what both Sully as well as JR have been able to accomplish after being handed the smoldering wreckage left in the wake of the Shero/Bylsma era. A near complete roster overhaul, a team identity for the first time in years, a team playing as unit, and a GM who isn't afraid to go out and get guys to surround the drivers (Sid and Geno) with the tools they need to carry this team to victory. Honestly, for as much as we discuss everything, those two guys did an unreal job.

But on the same token, coaches have a shelf life in the NHL and it's extremely finite. Sully's had issues with Cole, he's had issues with Kessel, he reportedly has issues with Sprong. I'm not sure whether you move on from the coach or the player who seems to have a very real issue harnessing his emotions and keeping himself in check. Both have done fantastic stuff for this organization and are a huge reason we won back to backs, but both have their warts as well. The one thing I will say is that if you replace Sully, I don't think the new guy will be able to handle Kessel any easier and you don't really get a "return" for your asset. Whereas if you move Phil, you keep your coach who might be one of the best in the league (nobody is without their faults, Sully is undeniably one of the top coaches around, especially for this team) and you get a relatively big return for a guy who, like it or not, is only a couple years from having his physical ability drop out and his performance/production likely fall by a lot.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How is Kessel being a nightmare? Because he freewheels a bit or doesn't back check as hard as Sullivan would like? More difficult to coach than some players because he tends to march to his own beat at times, but if he was that much of a disruption then we wouldn't have won two straight Cups and him being a total dick would have resulted in multiple early exits during his time in Pittsburgh.

It just seems like Sullivan refuses to adjust for minor quirks or eccentricities players have, and expects them all to act like 4th line grinders who do exactly what coaches tell them and never deviate from the script.

How can you seriously be ignoring the reputation Kessel has as a coach killer? That reputation is completely warranted at this point, there is way too much smoke around the "Kessel is awful for coaches" fire for that to not be true. At this point, I genuinely have no idea how you can give Kessel the benefit of the doubt. Even if Sullivan is being ridiculous for his reasons of disliking Kessel, that doesn't change the fact that Kessel has been a problem for numerous coaches in his NHL career and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. He has a reputation of being a problem for coaches for a reason, it's not just made up.

Kessel isn’t a nightmare for Sullivan, they don’t have 2 Cups without each other. Melodramatic nonsense.

Good to know that winning means everything is a-okay. Wasn't Tom Barrasso a colossal piece of **** back in the 90s despite the team winning 2 cups?

I'm not sure you can call someone who puts up 90+ pts, who is a proven playoff performer (minus this year, injuries?), and from all accounts a likeable guy in the locker room a "nightmare" regardless of their habits.

Kessel playing well or Kessel getting along with his teammates doesn't mean that Kessel isn't a problem for the coaching staff.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

But Kessel being a nightmare for coaches is why Kessel might be dealt. Sullivan isn't just unfairly hating Kessel, Kessel is bringing it on himself because of the kind of person/professional he is.

Kessel has his reputation for a reason. I'm not going to blame Sullivan for having issues with Kessel when it is really well known how bad Kessel is for coaches.

Link?

 

[Andy99]

How is Kessel being a nightmare? Because he freewheels a bit or doesn't back check as hard as Sullivan would like? More difficult to coach than some players because he tends to march to his own beat at times, but if he was that much of a disruption then we wouldn't have won two straight Cups and him being a total dick would have resulted in multiple early exits during his time in Pittsburgh.

It just seems like Sullivan refuses to adjust for minor quirks or eccentricities players have, and expects them all to act like 4th line grinders who do exactly what coaches tell them and never deviate from the script.

Agree for the most part....I don’t think he wants them to act like 4th line grinders though.....his favorite phrase next to “hard to play against” is “200foot player”....it would be great if every player we had always played tough defense AND had an amazing shot AND was an amazing playmaker etc....they don’t...outside of franchise players, all players have strengths and weaknesses and it’s Sully’s job to find a way to make them mesh...I was not happy with the way he failed to do that this year...he needs to get over himself and his “ideal” player and work better with what he has/what they do well, which is a team good enough to win it all....

 

[Empoleon8771]

Link?

Ex-Maple Leafs coach Wilson rips into Kessel - Sportsnet.ca

Ron Wilson with some not nice words about Kessel here.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How can you seriously be ignoring the reputation Kessel has as a coach killer? That reputation is completely warranted at this point, there is way too much smoke around the "Kessel is awful for coaches" fire for that to not be true. At this point, I genuinely have no idea how you can give Kessel the benefit of the doubt. Even if Sullivan is being ridiculous for his reasons of disliking Kessel, that doesn't change the fact that Kessel has been a problem for numerous coaches in his NHL career and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. He has a reputation of being a problem for coaches for a reason, it's not just made up.

Where did I say Kessel wasn't someone who probably drives coaches a bit nuts? My point is more about Sullivan refusing to work around Kessel's quirks for the better of the team, and instead seems to be putting his foot down which will result in the Pens moving a 92 point elite winger for pennies on the dollar, thus weakening the team.

Kessel's ALWAYS been this way. He was like this the second he was acquired. He was like this both times we won the Cup. He didn't just suddenly become difficult to coach. Why can't Sullivan find a way to tolerate him so we can keep our Cup contending roster in place, instead of suddenly saying, "I've had enough" and our roster losing out on an elite talent?

 

[Andy99]

Ex-Maple Leafs coach Wilson rips into Kessel - Sportsnet.ca

Ron Wilson with some not nice words about Kessel here.

No coach likes players who float and only play defense in the RS when they want to...they’re all cut from the same cloth....it’s not earth shattering news....but many of those players still help the team tremendously and coaches need to chill out....

 

[Empoleon8771]

Where did I say Kessel wasn't someone who probably drives coaches a bit nuts? My point is more about Sullivan refusing to work around Kessel's quirks for the better of the team, and instead seems to be putting his foot down which will result in the Pens moving a 92 point elite winger for pennies on the dollar, thus weakening the team.

Kessel's ALWAYS been this way. He was like this the second he was acquired. He was like this both times we won the Cup. He didn't just suddenly become difficult to coach. Why can't Sullivan find a way to tolerate him so we can keep our Cup contending roster in place, instead of suddenly saying, "I've had enough" and our roster losing out on an elite talent

Like you said, Kessel didn't suddenly become difficult to coach and has always been this way. Sullivan has dealt with this for 3 years now, that's why he's probably saying "I've had enough". In the past, the Penguins were winning and Kessel was performing extremely well in the playoffs, so he wasn't going to raise a problem then. Now, they lost in the 2nd round to a team they should have beat, and Kessel laying an egg in the playoffs is arguably the biggest reason for them losing in the playoffs. What did you expect to happen?

Kessel was never going to be a long term player here, I don't know why people expected Kessel to be here for his entire contract. My guess was that he was gone in the 2019 offseason. Why should Sullivan bite his tongue and just deal with a player that isn't going to be staying here beyond 2020 (at the absolute latest, when the next expansion draft happens) regardless? This isn't Sidney Crosby here, someone who's not going anywhere and is going to retire as a Penguin.

No coach likes players who float and only play defense in the RS when they want to...they’re all cut from the same cloth....it’s not earth shattering news....but many of those players still help the team tremendously and coaches need to chill out....

And all of those coaches aren't going to chill out, so you better be able to do what they want you to do.

 

[robes1]

Like you said, Kessel didn't suddenly become difficult to coach and has always been this way. Sullivan has dealt with this for 3 years now, that's why he's probably saying "I've had enough". In the past, the Penguins were winning and Kessel was performing extremely well in the playoffs, so he wasn't going to raise a problem then. Now, they lost in the 2nd round to a team they should have beat, and Kessel laying an egg in the playoffs is arguably the biggest reason for them losing in the playoffs. What did you expect to happen?

Uh, while Kessel's performance was sub-par, this is no way on him. When the entire team (excluding Sid, Jake, and maybe Horny) looked awfully mediocre to downright awful, this shouldn't be pinned on Kessel.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Like you said, Kessel didn't suddenly become difficult to coach and has always been this way. Sullivan has dealt with this for 3 years now, that's why he's probably saying "I've had enough". In the past, the Penguins were winning and Kessel was performing extremely well in the playoffs, so he wasn't going to raise a problem then. Now, they lost in the 2nd round to a team they should have beat, and Kessel laying an egg in the playoffs is arguably the biggest reason for them losing in the playoffs. What did you expect to happen?

I expected them to see whether this year's loss was due to the team running out of gas plus all those injuries, and see if they can win it all next year before deciding to do something rash like move Kessel for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Uh, while Kessel's performance was sub-par, this is no way on him. When the entire team (excluding Sid, Jake, and maybe Horny) looked awfully mediocre to downright awful, this shouldn't be pinned on Kessel.

I'd certainly argue that Kessel laying an egg was one of the biggest reasons the Penguins lost in the playoffs. Kessel was atrocious in the playoffs, he was useless outside of the powerplay.

I expected them to see whether this year's loss was due to the team running out of gas plus all those injuries, and see if they can win it all next year before deciding to do something rash like move Kessel for pennies on the dollar.

Why are they moving Kessel for pennies on the dollar? Kessel's value right now is the highest that it's ever going to be. He's coming off a 92 point season, he's not going to repeat what he did this year.

If they trade him this summer, they'll be selling at a high point and getting rid of one headache for Sullivan. Sure, they're losing an elite player, but if the rumors about him and Sullivan are true, then this is the best possible time to trade Kessel.