Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[Randy Butternubs]

Trading Kessel for fair value would be so stupid. ..

If Sullivan and Kessel have beef, I say they shoud just get over it and win more cups.

If they've got beef they should have a barbecue.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The difference is that a winger can’t lose you a game (or it’s much less likely) but a Dman can. You can bury an underperforming winger much easier than a top Dman.

Even if I agreed with the premise, the winger still needs to help win games. Letang helped win games, even if he also helped lose a game. He makes just as much money (a bit more actually) so in my opinion he's expected to help us win just as much. He did a worse job than letang in that regard regardless of how you want to twist it. Not winning is the same as losing, and Phil did not help us win anything.

I honestly just can't understand how anyone thinks letang was worse than Kessel without having a bias going in.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think it's not as simple as "Sully is at fault" or "Phil is at fault." They're both at fault here. Phil's an elite winger, a 90pt guy in a league that's becoming increasingly more difficult to score points in. He's also a guy who is way too emotional at times, and it has a tendency to dictate his play on the ice. Sully, on the other hand, is a "shut up and do what I say" kind of guy who coaches the way he's gonna coach and won't tolerate anyone going against the grain. He's also the first coach in nearly two decades to lead a team to back to back Cups, has instilled an identity and gotten this group to (for the most part) entirely buy in and play as a singular machine.

It's not easy to just let one or the other go. Coaches have a shelf life in this league, even the absolute best of them. Wingers, particularly ones around Kessel's age who rely entirely on raw talent and skill, drop off eventually and need to be replaced. Both of these guys are some of the best at what they do right now and play a huge role in this team's pursuit of the Cup season after season. It's not an easy choice one way or another, but I would be surprised if Sully was the guy this organization axed. I think in all likelihood nobody goes anywhere and they give it another season to really decide, but I also think there's a good chance Phil is moved if a team offers JR a deal that makes sense. Not a certainty by any means, and I think it'll be one more season before something happens one way or another, but Phil's a valuable asset if nothing else and if the team wants to move him, I'm sure they would find a ton of trading partners.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To be honest, I think it might not be a bad idea to consider moving Rust this off-season. It's going to really suck moving him, but the Penguins need to balance out their LW and RW strength and I honestly don't like Rust on LW.

I don't think Minnesota would do it, but I'd try to see how interested they'd be in swapping the RFA rights for Zucker and Rust. The Penguins would have to add of course, but I'd be curious to see if it's workable.

 

[Jacob]

I still have yet to see a proposal for a return for Letang or Kessel that makes sense or doesn’t make us obviously worse.

We’d need a top 4 RD and a right shooting forward that can play on the 1st PP unit coming back. In all scenarios our D and our PP will look worse next season. But I guess Sullivan’s blood pressure will improve?

 

[Turin]

I still have yet to see a proposal for a return for Letang or Kessel that makes sense or doesn’t make us obviously worse.

We’d need a top 4 RD and a right shooting forward that can play on the 1st PP unit coming back. In all scenarios our D and our PP will look worse next season. But I guess Sullivan’s blood pressure will improve?

I think most people don’t watch other teams consistently when they’re not playing Pittsburgh, so basically any fresh name sounds appealing despite being obviously worse. A lot of the zeitgeist on this board has been one of underapreciation. Certainly not all posters, but many can’t see the big picture from their Pittsburgh bubble. I mean Phil Kessel is the best player on 20 teams this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think most people don’t watch other teams consistently when they’re not playing Pittsburgh, so basically any fresh name sounds appealing despite being obviously worse. A lot of the zeitgeist on this board has been one of underapreciation. Certainly not all posters, but many can’t see the big picture from their Pittsburgh bubble. I mean Phil Kessel is the best player on 20 teams this year.

I watch a lot of teams and Kessel is a solid player, but I don’t think he even cracked the top twenty players in the league this year.

Arguably a top ten winger. I think there are plenty of ways a Letang or Kessel trade could open up cap space to bring in a solid top four D and a top six winger that plays the LW.

 

[Gurglesons]

Part of the problem with that dissection of the play starts with the fact that it was never a 2-on-1. At no point was there only 1 Penguin between 2 Flyers and Murray. Disagree? Check the tape and show me the time where you imagine that happened.

The irony is that Kessel kept position on his man during the entire sequence while Letang, the supposed 2-way defenseman, lost his man on a routine play....a recurring theme these playoffs. All he had to do was stay between his man and the net and he didn't. Letang was caught staring into the middle distance while everyone else had their guys covered. A shiny object probably distracted him.

If you think a 2 on 1 is a routine player on a power play I don’t know what to say.

They overloaded the left side and had two players on Letang. Which allowed for them to cycle the puck down.

 

[Turin]

I watch a lot of teams and Kessel is a solid player, but I don’t think he even cracked the top twenty players in the league this year.

Arguably a top ten winger. I think there are plenty of ways a Letang or Kessel trade could open up cap space to bring in a solid top four D and a top six winger that plays the LW.

There are plenty of ways to downgrade, yes.

 

[Jacob]

I watch a lot of teams and Kessel is a solid player, but I don’t think he even cracked the top twenty players in the league this year.

Arguably a top ten winger. I think there are plenty of ways a Letang or Kessel trade could open up cap space to bring in a solid top four D and a top six winger that plays the LW.

Like who? And who fills Kessel’s PP spot? And why move good players to free up cap space instead of bad players?

I’ll take even just one example for each. Kessel to where for what and Letang to where for what.

 

[3074326]

I suspect this is a situation where the Pens are open to trading Kessel......if the team is able to be improved in the process.

I expect to see Phil in Pittsburgh next year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Like who? And who fills Kessel’s PP spot? And why move good players to free up cap space instead of bad players?

I’ll take even just one example for each. Kessel to where for what and Letang to where for what.

Kessel for Coyle / Nino + 15th overall. UFA sign DeHaan 3.5 for 3 years. Jake takes Kessel’s spot on the power play.

Letang for Klefbom + 10th overall. UFA sign Hickey at 2.5 for 2 years. Dumo, Schultz Maatta Klefbom as your top four with Oleksiak and Hickey as your bottom pairing. Hope someone like Noah Dobson falls to tenth and draft a D that is ready to play next year with the cap crunch.

 

[Gurglesons]

There are plenty of ways to downgrade, yes.

I mean, yeah there are. There is also that chance that both Letang and Kessel’s playoff struggles come over next year and we are stuck with two anchors instead of one when we run into cap issues in 2018 and we lose someone like Schultz or Hornqvist. Or a combined Rust and Hagelin.

If we want to be a contender we need to cycle in players for some of our vets that are going to be costly. Kessel and Letang are smart moves to make if they are done right, with an eye on the future.

Obviously there is a risk. But, would you rather have taken the risk or just sat back like LA?

 

[BladeRunner66]

I mean, yeah there are. There is also that chance that both Letang and Kessel’s playoff struggles come over next year and we are stuck with two anchors instead of one when we run into cap issues in 2018 and we lose someone like Schultz or Hornqvist. Or a combined Rust and Hagelin.

If we want to be a contender we need to cycle in players for some of our vets that are going to be costly. Kessel and Letang are smart moves to make if they are done right, with an eye on the future.

Obviously there is a risk. But, would you rather have taken the risk or just sat back like LA?

Kessel and Letang are very hard to move smartly and wasn't Kessel injured this time?

I mean, just look at the guy's PO record.

I'm ok with Hagelin going if we can't trade him as he's overpaid for what he brings, it's not like we'd 'lose' him imo. We really need cap space, sooner than later. Hell, if Rust asks for too much i'd try to move him or lose him too but only if we couldn't solve that damn cap space problem.

Phil Kessel Career Playoffs Stats

Season	Team	GP	G	A	P	+/-	PIM	PPG	PPP	SHG	SHP	GWG	OTG	S	S%	FO%
2007-2008	BOS	4	3	1	4	1	2	1	1	0	0	0	0	13	23.1	33.33
2008-2009	BOS	11	6	5	11	7	4	0	2	0	0	0	0	38	15.8	0
2012-2013	TOR	7	4	2	6	3	2	1	1	0	0	2	0	29	13.8	0
2015-2016	PIT	24	10	12	22	5	4	5	11	0	0	0	0	98	10.2	0
2016-2017	PIT	25	8	15	23	12	2	5	11	0	1	2	0	68	11.8	0
2017-2018	PIT	12	1	8	9	-5	2	0	6	0	0	0	0	18	5.6	50
Career	-	83	32	43	75	23	16	12	32	0	1	4	0	264	12.1	16.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

 

[Gurglesons]

Kessel and Letang are very hard to move smartly and wasn't Kessel injured this time?

I mean, just look at the guy's PO record.

I'm ok with Hagelin going if we can't trade him as he's overpaid for what he brings, it's not like we'd 'lose' him imo. We really need cap space, sooner than later. Hell, if Rust asks for too much i'd try to move him or lose him too but only if we couldn't solve that damn cap space problem.

Phil Kessel Career Playoffs Stats

Season	Team	GP	G	A	P	+/-	PIM	PPG	PPP	SHG	SHP	GWG	OTG	S	S%	FO%
2007-2008	BOS	4	3	1	4	1	2	1	1	0	0	0	0	13	23.1	33.33
2008-2009	BOS	11	6	5	11	7	4	0	2	0	0	0	0	38	15.8	0
2012-2013	TOR	7	4	2	6	3	2	1	1	0	0	2	0	29	13.8	0
2015-2016	PIT	24	10	12	22	5	4	5	11	0	0	0	0	98	10.2	0
2016-2017	PIT	25	8	15	23	12	2	5	11	0	1	2	0	68	11.8	0
2017-2018	PIT	12	1	8	9	-5	2	0	6	0	0	0	0	18	5.6	50
Career	-	83	32	43	75	23	16	12	32	0	1	4	0	264	12.1	16.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

The trade about Kessel isn’t about his performance. It is about the team needing money to afford Jake and Murray while keeping some semblance of depth and restocking our farm.

 

[BladeRunner66]

The trade about Kessel isn’t about his performance. It is about the team needing money to afford Jake and Murray while keeping some semblance of depth and restocking our farm.

Murray is locked until 19-20 but yeah, Jake is gonna cost around 5 per. This cap puzzle is going to give me a headache, see ya later.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

This team probably needs more Hagelins and Rusts, not less. Those guys allow our exceptionally gifted offensive players to do their thing.

 

[Jacob]

Kessel for Coyle / Nino + 15th overall. UFA sign DeHaan 3.5 for 3 years. Jake takes Kessel’s spot on the power play.

Letang for Klefbom + 10th overall. UFA sign Hickey at 2.5 for 2 years. Dumo, Schultz Maatta Klefbom as your top four with Oleksiak and Hickey as your bottom pairing. Hope someone like Noah Dobson falls to tenth and draft a D that is ready to play next year with the cap crunch.

Jake’s a lefty though. We need a righty on the left half-boards.

DeHaan won’t get less than a broken-down Kulikov got, and Hickey won’t get less than 32 year old journeyman Hunwick got, in my opinion.

I’m all for doing a bit of a cupboard restocking, but the time isn’t now. We traded away a 1st and a good prospect in February, what’s changed in the last 3 months? Mid 1sts won’t help us for years and even if we shoehorn them into the lineup, there will be ups and downs. Our window is 2-3 years, at most. I think when that window is obviously closed (signified by either dips in production of our core guys and/or a consistent lack of playoff success) we trade anyone over a certain age that doesn’t want to retire a Penguin for futures and reload.

 

[Gurglesons]

Jake’s a lefty though. We need a righty on the left half-boards.

DeHaan won’t get less than a broken-down Kulikov got, and Hickey won’t get less than 32 year old journeyman Hunwick got, in my opinion.

I’m all for doing a bit of a cupboard restocking, but the time isn’t now. We traded away a 1st and a good prospect in February, what’s changed in the last 3 months? Mid 1sts won’t help us for years and even if we shoehorn them into the lineup, there will be ups and downs. Our window is 2-3 years, at most. I think when that window is obviously closed (signified by either dips in production of our core guys and/or a consistent lack of playoff success) we trade anyone over a certain age that doesn’t want to retire a Penguin for futures and reload.

I think our window was 2-3 years in 2017. With Schultz, Hags, Jake, Murray, and Brassard coming we are going to look like the 2014-15 team in 19-20.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Again, why do people keep ignoring this? If the Penguins are trading Kessel, they're almost definitely going to end up worse. The Penguins aren't going to trade Kessel in a "hockey trade" to try and make the team better. The Penguins are only going to trade Kessel if he and Sullivan have problems that can't be fixed. If Sullivan and Kessel didn't have those issues, Kessel flat out wouldn't be traded.

The idea that the Penguins will only move Kessel for an upgrade is a fallacy, because the Penguins wouldn't move Kessel if not for other problems.

 

[Jacob]

Usually whoever gets the best player in the trade wins the trade. So well be losing 2 trades because of poor Sully’s feelings.

It’s not like we’re hurting for depth. Our 4th line will be Sheahan with ZAR and someone else. That’s a hell of a 4th line. Our 3rd pairing, even right now, is Oleksiak - Ruh. That’s not bad.

There probably aren’t many regular posters that are more critical of Kessel’s play even when he’s putting up points but jesus he’s still an elite talent and ultimately that’s what wins games. Teams with 3+ Cups are notable for their elite talents more than they are their Charlie Coyles or Klefboms.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I really don't believe it's an all or nothing situation regarding the future either. Sid and Geno aren't guys who live and die by attributes like speed. They'll have the hands, vision, shot and creativity to be great players well into their decline. It's not a situation like Phil, for example. Once he starts to slow down he's going to struggle because his speed, deceptive as it may be, is what really drives his play. His snap and wrist shots might be the best I can ever remember seeing, and I doubt that changes much with age, but he's not a one-timer guy and if he's struggling to move around and create space or find open ice, he's gonna drop off a lot.

I think a lot is going to depend on whether or not JR is willing to risk things in order to be proactive and get ahead of the curve with this team's future. Moving Letang for a big haul before he falls off and his value plummets is an opportunity, one with risk but one that could really help reshape this team in the near as well as foreseeable future. The same thing can be said of Phil, if his reported issues with being able to rope in his emotions and deal with Sully are as problematic as we're being lead to believe. Those two guys are guys who live and die by their physical ability, mainly skating. Once the bottom drops out, they're essentially untradeable and you damn well better have gotten Cups out of them in the next few years because they're now contracts worth a ton and cannot be moved, at least for anything that helps this team.

 

[Andy99]

Sprong is a righty who can play Phil’s position on the left half board....

That said, I agree we shouldn’t trade Phil unless we’re getting a player or players back who can help us win immediately and make up for his offense....

Every year our core gets older our window of contention gets smaller...I don’t see how trading Phil keeps that window open unless we get a 1) younger wing who can put up at least between 50-60 points and 2) Sprong comes on really well and makes up the additional points we’re missing....this is why I’d rather wait to see how Sprong does this year before looking to trade Phil....

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

If Sully is already having problems with players 3 years into being here...hes the problem.

The team should stay intact for next year. See what they do when healthy. Injuries were the main reason. Guarantee this group could win it all again next year...if there wasnt a problem with the coach

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Sprong is a righty who can play Phil’s position on the left half board....

That said, I agree we shouldn’t trade Phil unless we’re getting a player or players back who can help us win immediately and make up for his offense....

Every year our core gets older our window of contention gets smaller...I don’t see how trading Phil keeps that window open unless we get a 1) younger wing who can put up at least between 50-60 points and 2) Sprong comes on really well and makes up the additional points we’re missing....this is why I’d rather wait to see how Sprong does this year before looking to trade Phil....

I don't think anyone is really pushing Phil out the door, just sorta discussing things.


Friedman listed Calgary as a potential landing spot for Phil, because of their need for offense from the wings. Hamilton makes a ton of sense because of our dire need to fix the blueline, his reported unhappiness or at the very least lack of a fit in Calgary, and the fact that he's exactly what we should be looking for in a blueliner. If the trade was centered around Phil for Hamilton, minor pieces added on either side to balance things out accordingly, would you pull the trigger? I love Phil, but that's a deal I'd probably make. It also makes moving Letang much more palatable, depending on the return he brings (which I'd imagine would be significant, warts and all).

I don't think anything big happens this summer, but I wouldn't be upset if JR tried to get ahead of a potentially huge problem by moving one or both of Phil and Letang. I think Phil's a more integral part of this team's success, as we live and die by our forward depth and production, but if he's been at odds with Sully for multiple seasons and it's not improving, it might be in our best interest to move him for a big return before A. the wheels fall off and his value subsequently drops, or B. Sully is fired and Phil's "coach killer" tag is made much worse, hampering his value.