Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '17-18 Season

[Tobias Kahun]

BOTH Nuge and Klef were caught on the play. The first shift. Neither should be.

Look, any coach at any level of competitive hockey throws out a first line and pairing with the expectation that they account for themselves well in that shift and in that game. To set the tone for the game. Well they did, but not as intended or desired.

To say that a Defensive Center, who has been afforded that role on a hockey club has no responsibility for numbers back contain on that play is weird.

A Center has more accountability than wingers. I don't need to explain this.

So RNH is in on the forecheck, and he should know that klefbom is about the make the dumbest play of the game, and cover for him.

You're on your own with this argument.

It's on klefbom and only klefbom

 

[belair]

How often do you think I note Nuge gets overpowered by opposition centers?


Hint. A lot.

I like strong Centers that can at least hold their own. McD is that, Drai is that, Nuge is physically not that. That is a detriment.

Opponents don't generally need to overpower Draisaitl and McDavid, they just have to outwork and outwit them. Which happened in this game to our top line multiple times by their fourth line. It's also why that line has been on the receiving end of some goals against this season--a minus in every game since opening night. Not to mention Draisaitl's career year was played as a RW.

 

[BarDownBobo]

BOTH Nuge and Klef were caught on the play. The first shift. Neither should be.

Look, any coach at any level of competitive hockey throws out a first line and pairing with the expectation that they account for themselves well in that shift and in that game. To set the tone for the game. Well they did, but not as intended or desired.

To say that a Defensive Center, who has been afforded that role on a hockey club has no responsibility for numbers back contain on that play is weird.

A Center has more accountability than wingers. I don't need to explain this.

No. Nuge was the fourth player to enter the defensive zone on that play, behind Larsson and the two Canes. If Klefbom doesn't make a terrible pinch the Canes have a 2 on 3 going the other way and it almost guaranteed leads to nothing. It's 100% on Klef, and trying to put any blame on Nuge that play is pushing an agenda against him in a big way.

 

[Drivesaitl]

So RNH is in on the forecheck, and he should know that klefbom is about the make the dumbest play of the game, and cover for him.

You're on your own with this argument.

It's on klefbom and only klefbom

I stated the rationale. You don't chase a forecheck that isn't there. Especially as a D Center on first shift.

Good forecheckers get in on players when they know they have time to get there. The Canes got the puck out easy and Nuge was caught along with Klefbom. Both are responsible for defensive contain and both lost positioning.

If you are saying Klef is MORE at fault because he's a D I can agree. But Nuge is a Center, the position that is next in line in defensive responsibility.

Both players made an ill advised poor percentage pinch that cost an odd man rush. Both lacked awareness on where the other player was.


Anyway, hockey is a team sport and good teams cover for mistakes. Or look to do that. They don't replicate or confound mistakes albeit I can understand if you're saying Klef was the more guilty in that regard.

Anyway good night.

 

[Drivesaitl]

No. Nuge was the fourth player to enter the defensive zone on that play, behind Larsson and the two Canes. If Klefbom doesn't make a terrible pinch the Canes have a 2 on 3 going the other way and it almost guaranteed leads to nothing. It's 100% on Klef, and trying to put any blame on Nuge that play is pushing an agenda against him in a big way.

Gotcha. Thank you for the clear explanation. I will amend my opinion on that goal to that degree. Nuge was in first, so obviously he couldn't cover for Klef. I just don't know why they thought the forecheck was on in the first dump in the first place. They weren't going to be able to pressure that puck successfully. It was all just too aggressive on a poor percentage play.

WE need commitment to numbers back, and player not cheating, no matter who they be. peace out

 

[Drivesaitl]

Opponents don't generally need to overpower Draisaitl and McDavid, they just have to outwork and outwit them. Which happened in this game to our top line multiple times by their fourth line. It's also why that line has been on the receiving end of some goals against this season--a minus in every game since opening night. Not to mention Draisaitl's career year was played as a RW.

AS mentioned this is not completely fair to McD. he clearly carries the offense on this club and especially in the absence of Draisaitl. Soon s the score became 2-0 this was going to be chasing for McD in a game the Oilers felt they had to have. So some of the result is score effects, of being behind.

Normally the risk/reward with McD is excellent. Chasing scorelines is always going to be harder.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

A little early to be saying that Nuge has stepped up after 5 games of a season when he's been completely disappointing the last complete 2 seasons.
I dare say we need more sample before turning that page.

3 points

1 on a perfect behind the net feed from Maroon in which Nuge only needed to finish into half an empty net.

1 goal on breakaway, nice finish, impressive play by Nuge.

His one assist an inconsequential touch of the puck. Strome made the brilliant play of holding onto the puck and fighting off his opponent long enough to do the drop pass to Lucic.

As for McDavid in fairness a lot of the things that have happened are due to him having this club clearly on his back and that he needs to take chances when the club is chronically multiple goals down. McD will settle in and is an infinitely better all round center than Nuge.

Yeah the pass to spring Strome was a inconsequential touch. So much for a fresh start.

They both are. Difference is Klefbom is playing like Mark Fayne right now. Nuge is just Nuging, but I've kinda had it with that too. I'm done with lowering my bar for Nugent Hopkins. You're a better ****ing player than this. Play like it.

The whole team blows yet you are focusing all of this on Nuge who is tied for 2nd on the team in points and is 2nd in goals. If he was playing **** hockey like much of the last 2 seasons I could see your gripe, he isn't though. IF he ever returns to his rookie season self offensively be sure that it won't be overnight, it will take time of reprogramming his thought process and lots of hard work.

Video isn't playing for me.

Anyway Nuge got up AFTER Stall and quite clearly thus he was behind the play. Just watched it again on NHL hilites. If an old Staal can leave a Young Nuge in his dust Nuge shouldn't even be on the ice.

Anyway, we're getting nowhere, we see it differently, that's fine.

Since when is Jordan Staal old? Of course he got up second because Staal fell on top of him, what do you think that Nuge should've done? A kick out WWE style and threw the 220ish lb. Staal off of him as if Nuge was the Big Show?

How often do you think I note Nuge gets overpowered by opposition centers?


Hint. A lot.

I like strong Centers that can at least hold their own. McD is that, Drai is that, Nuge is physically not that. That is a detriment.

Seeing as you're new and all, what was your take on Sam Gagner while he was here?

 

[Drivesaitl]

^NHL Centers in this day and age that have a shutdown role on their club HAVE to be strong and able to hold their own in physical play and competing for the puck. Competing with other Centers. That is a necessary ingredient of the assignment. If you can't do that you lack in the assignment.
Just look up the average weight, size, of the WC better Centers some of which Nuge would be seeing.

Using another example if a NFL lineman was 220lbs and had trouble (of course they would) containing lineman 100lbs heavier of course it would be valid to say they do not have the required stature or strength for the incumbent position.

If Nuges standard utilization here was as a sheltered offensive Center and having that as his primary role than he could succeed in a limited capacity. But not in any shutdown capacity.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

^NHL Centers in this day and age that have a shutdown role on their club HAVE to be strong and able to hold their own in physical play and competing for the puck. Competing with other Centers. That is a necessary ingredient of the assignment. If you can't do that you lack in the assignment.
Just look up the average weight, size, of the WC better Centers some of which Nuge would be seeing.

Using another example if a NFL lineman was 220lbs and had trouble (of course they would) containing lineman 100lbs heavier of course it would be valid to say they do not have the required stature or strength for the incumbent position.

If Nuges standard utilization here was as a sheltered offensive Center and having that as his primary role than he could succeed in a limited capacity. But not in any shutdown capacity.

So tell me why you are crapping on him when his coach is putting him in that role? Is it Nuge's fault that we haven't acquired a 3C or that Drai has been attached at the hip with McDavid? Overall Nuge has done a good job this season, especially when you watch him objectively and don't make up horse**** like saying that it's his fault that another center fell on him and that it's his fault that there was a bad pinch by our defense.

 

[Spawn]

I wonder what Raffi Torres is up to now a days.

 

[Soundwave]

I want to see 55-60 points from RNH this year. He has the ability to do so, he needs to stop making excuses and stop accepting mediocrity from himself.

He has all the ability to do so.

I'm not sold on the "he's much better this year" just yet either ... he's on pace for 49 points. He had one very nice goal, the other one was spoon fed by Maroon. The assist yesterday is mainly on Strome making that play happen to Lucic.

I'd say 2 good games this year and 3 low impact games. That needs to be better, he needs to be a noticeable impact player for more than 2/5 games.

I hope he plays better and I think he can, but I also need to see concrete evidence of it. I need to see more scoring chances at least ... a player of his talent/caliber should not be going 2/3 games without a major scoring chance at least and that happens way too often to RNH.

I'm hard on him only because 1.) He has the ability 2.) If he played up to said ability the team goes to an entirely different level.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I wonder what Raffi Torres is up to now a days.

I saw Jarrett Stoll doing intermission reports for the Kings broadcast...

 

[Drivesaitl]

So tell me why you are crapping on him when his coach is putting him in that role? Is it Nuge's fault that we haven't acquired a 3C or that Drai has been attached at the hip with McDavid? Overall Nuge has done a good job this season, especially when you watch him objectively and don't make up horse**** like saying that it's his fault that another center fell on him and that it's his fault that there was a bad pinch by our defense.

Its not news to Nuge that he has this role. He had this role last season, this season, he's known he would. He's had two offseasons to prepare for this role, to get stronger, to work on his push back. As many note it simply isn't in him.

Note that McLellan also called out that we had pinches by players (note plural, it was Nuge and Klef) on the very first shift in the game. Can't do that against a team that loves to run the counter. That's all the Canes do. Are the Oilers back to not knowing how to play NZ teams?

 

[TheRebuild]

I saw Jarrett Stoll doing intermission reports for the Kings broadcast...

In-between lines of coke...

I kid of course, but seriously, didn’t he have a drug problem?

 

[Spawn]

From what I've seen from Nuge this season he's looked fine. Somewhat more effective through this very early stretch than he was last year. Not bad like he was for much of last year. Not great like hes shown in very isolated spurts in his career. Just fine. Since expectations have shifted so much for the player, playing fine seems to be meet the standards for all his fans.

 

[CycloneSweep]

From what I've seen from Nuge this season he's looked fine. Somewhat more effective through this very early stretch than he was last year. Not bad like he was for much of last year. Not great like hes shown in very isolated spurts in his career. Just fine. Since expectations have shifted so much for the player, playing fine seems to be meet the standards for all his fans.

Well I mean when the entire team is playing like crap and he has been constantly fine or better. Its a good thing.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

He doesn't score when he is supposed to "he sucks"
He scores when he is supposed to "still sucks he was supposed to score"

**** he could score 60 points this year and you people would say "Doesn't count he played 3 minutes with McDavid and sucked last year"

You're new here aren't you?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Its not news to Nuge that he has this role. He had this role last season, this season, he's known he would. He's had two offseasons to prepare for this role, to get stronger, to work on his push back. As many note it simply isn't in him.

Note that McLellan also called out that we had pinches by players (note plural, it was Nuge and Klef) on the very first shift in the game. Can't do that against a team that loves to run the counter. That's all the Canes do. Are the Oilers back to not knowing how to play NZ teams?

He has been asked to pick up his offense by his coach. This means IMO that the coach is relatively fine with his defensive play but wants more offensively out of him. We do not have a shutdown center so the coach asks Nuge to do what he can. Nuge wasn't drafted to be a shutdown type, doesn't have the build or the faceoff ability to be a shutdown guy, Drai could be that player in time if he commits to the role, if not then we should add such a player and continue to encourage RNH to be a two way center.

Also when the hell have forwards been accused of 'pinching"? Pinching is usually what is said of a defenseman that comes down to the circles or lower to keep a puck in, make an offensive play, etc.

From what I've seen from Nuge this season he's looked fine. Somewhat more effective through this very early stretch than he was last year. Not bad like he was for much of last year. Not great like hes shown in very isolated spurts in his career. Just fine. Since expectations have shifted so much for the player, playing fine seems to be meet the standards for all his fans.

Fair assessment although I do think that he still has more to give and that he can play even better. That said I find it promising that he is trying more things offensively and overall looking more confident. Hopefully that continues and he gets better as the season goes along.

Well I mean when the entire team is playing like crap and he has been constantly fine or better. Its a good thing.

Right now he is not a problem on the team so that's a plus in his corner.

 

[Spawn]

Fair assessment although I do think that he still has more to give and that he can play even better. That said I find it promising that he is trying more things offensively and overall looking more confident. Hopefully that continues and he gets better as the season goes along.

As the season plays out we'll see if you're right. It's possible of course. IMO it is necessary for us to keep him. We could get away with Nuge making $6M and playing at a ~50 point pace when Drai and McDavid were making less than $6M combined with bonuses. But with them at $21M we are going to need more from our second tier of high paid players. Not just RNH. But Lucic too.

~60 points and better defense than they displayed last year should be expected for both of them.

Nuge and/or Lucic gets that done by the end of the season I'll feel happy keeping them.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

As the season plays out we'll see if you're right. It's possible of course. IMO it is necessary for us to keep him. We could get away with Nuge making $6M and playing at a ~50 point pace when Drai and McDavid were making less than $6M combined with bonuses. But with them at $21M we are going to need more from our second tier of high paid players. Not just RNH. But Lucic too.

~60 points and better defense than they displayed last year should be expected for both of them.

Nuge and/or Lucic gets that done by the end of the season I'll feel happy keeping them.

With Looch we're basically stuck with him IMO because of his contract and history with Chia. FWIW I don't mind that but we can't get caught with Looch AND Maroon aging poorly on big contracts. 55-60 points IMO would be considered a hell of a season for both especially since Nuge isn't on PP1. Anything less than 50 points from Nuge over a full season would be a let down IMO.

 

[nabob]

60 points and really good defense while playing a 2nd/3rd line defensive based role and 2nd unit PP time?

So basically a hybrid of Kesler/Bergeron/Toews?

Don't think $6M gets you close to that.

 

[MessierII]

60 points and really good defense while playing a 2nd/3rd line defensive based role and 2nd unit PP time?

So basically a hybrid of Kesler/Bergeron/Toews?

Don't think $6M gets you close to that.

Last year Nuge gave us 40 points and mediocre to bad defense so yeah I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

[Spawn]

60 points and really good defense while playing a 2nd/3rd line defensive based role and 2nd unit PP time?

So basically a hybrid of Kesler/Bergeron/Toews?

Don't think $6M gets you close to that.

Kesler, Bergeron and Toews provide Selke level defense. I'm not asking for or expecting that from Nuge. Above average or even passable would do. He hasn't done that for a number of years.

 

[Throttlehead]

Nuge is third on the team for points per game, first on the team for +/- and Nuge is the problem? If his defence is below average, I hate to see what people value the rest of the players at. Currently Nuge is not even close to the problem right now, a huge focus should be on goaltending right now, they have been terrible.

I know its cool for some to rag on the players that were here before and losing, but the Oilers were nowhere close to having a "team"in all those aweful years. They have tried to change Nuge's play and identity many times with all the coaches and changes in players etc. I think Chia thought Strome could possibly replace Nuge if we had to rid his contract....good luck with that. We are still in bad need of scoring RW.

 

[joestevens29]

Nuge is third on the team for points per game, first on the team for +/- and Nuge is the problem? If his defence is below average, I hate to see what people value the rest of the players at. Currently Nuge is not even close to the problem right now, a huge focus should be on goaltending right now, they have been terrible.

I know its cool for some to rag on the players that were here before and losing, but the Oilers were nowhere close to having a "team"in all those aweful years. They have tried to change Nuge's play and identity many times with all the coaches and changes in players etc. I think Chia thought Strome could possibly replace Nuge if we had to rid his contract....good luck with that. We are still in bad need of scoring RW.

It's not just about the handful of games this year. A lot of Nuge's value goes back to previous years as well. Him being better for 5 games when the majority of the team has been awful doesn't erase previous year's results.

With that being said. Nuge seems to show more offensive jump this year. I just don't know that his defense is anything more than average. Which is fine given that he is able to put up close to 60 points.