Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '17-18 Season

[guymez]

I prefer physically strong players that are able to play hard on the puck. Given a choice I would rather have those players. Anybody can put different deference to different types of players, and which is legit because there are different ways to win hockey games.

Next Nuge is a 7year vet that had endless time and endless first line opportunity to hone his game. Something Yak wasn't granted.

Also me wording "I have less patience with" is worded strictly and quite clearly as my opinion. How could I have a disconnect from my opinion?

You're free to have your opinion as well. It probably won't be disconnected.

jk aside the biggest sin in pro sports, imo, is athletes that often refuse to give it their all. A cardinal sin, imo, is athletes that don't even give it their all in the playoffs. If you disagree, fine.

Yeah...disconnect was a poor choice on my part.

You have all the patience for a 5 year bubble NHL player but yet you have a lack of patience for a solid proven NHL player.
You are entitled to your opinion of course...its neither right nor wrong. Its yours to own.
I just find the duplicity interesting.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yeah...disconnect was a poor choice on my part.

You have all the patience for a 5 year bubble NHL player but yet you have a lack of patience for a solid proven NHL player.
You are entitled to your opinion of course...its neither right nor wrong. Its yours to own.
I just find the duplicity interesting.

Better worded but a double standard is not had in the context of the opinion that I have stated. How is "I prefer physical players that are hard on the puck(and hard to move off the puck) inconsistent, or a double standard with not preferring an RNH type player?

Its inconsistent with your notion of the player, not mine.

ps I'd choose interesting almost any day of the week. Probably except Mondays.

Bubble players? 23yr old first pick? Joe Murphy was a bubble player. The sports and hockey world are full of them and the difference between success and never happened is often just a team, any team, that believes in the player. Which makes untold difference.

Kass was a bubble player before arriving here. Maroon was one, even Russel was probably one. Good management often finds these "bubble players" to help put them over the top.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Next, I mentioned Cogliano earlier. How long did it take for this player, and what did it take for him to find a useful NHL role and landing spot? This happens all the time. It happens to most teams. Just that most didn't have a raft of #1 picks in the stable.

Key point being that first round picks have talent. #1 picks have immense talent. Their NHL careers go on to be with what they do with that talent and what help they get realizing it.

I tend not to look at first round picks as bubble players. I look at those players as examples of excelling at hockey, which doesn't disappear. This leads me to think that there are often diamonds in the rough with not fully utilized potential. You can't teach or train talent.

Food for thought. You're a CFL fan. The most talented CFL player I ever saw was Warren Moon. As an Eskimo. Without which he never would have been an NFL player let alone a probowl NFL player. To me he was one of the better QB's ever, at any league. But you can only realize that if afforded the opportunity. The key point being is you could be as good as a Warren Moon, the best in the world, and it can still take several years for a top tier team to take a chance to ride with you if they take the chance.

Doug Flutie another example. CFL has provided an endless list.

Even closer to home Zylstra was on practice roster for 12 games last season and only got an opportunity due to injury and Walker being gone. He looks all world in every respect any time he touches the ball but with different fate might never have got a chance.

 

[guymez]

Better worded but a double standard is not had in the context of the opinion that I have stated. How is "I prefer physical players that are hard on the puck(and hard to move off the puck) inconsistent, or a double standard with not preferring an RNH type player?

Its inconsistent with your notion of the player, not mine.

ps I'd choose interesting almost any day of the week. Probably except Mondays.

Bubble players? 23yr old first pick? Joe Murphy was a bubble player. The sports and hockey world are full of them and the difference between success and never happened is often just a team, any team, that believes in the player. Which makes untold difference.

Kass was a bubble player before arriving here. Maroon was one, even Russel was probably one. Good management often finds these "bubble players" to help put them over the top.

When a player isnt good enough to crack the roster on multiple NHL teams then yeah...he is a bubble player.
This is likely his last opportunity.

I didnt see you posting about Yak prior to this ridiculously small sample size of 5 games.

In any event it very much looks like a contradiction when you espouse the attributes of a fringe (bubble...you like words...pick the adjective ) player and downplay the attributes of a proven NHL player.

Yeah...its interesting to me how poster rationalizes a purely emotive response to players they 'like'.

Nothing personal at all...you seem like a thoughtful poster.
I just dont get it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

When a player isnt good enough to crack the roster on multiple NHL teams then yeah...he is a bubble player.
This is likely his last opportunity.

I didnt see you posting about Yak prior to this ridiculously small sample size of 5 games.

In any event it very much looks like a contradiction when you espouse the attributes of a fringe (bubble...you like words...pick the adjective ) player and downplay the attributes of a proven NHL player.

Yeah...its interesting to me how poster rationalizes a purely emotive response to players they 'like'.

Nothing personal at all...I just dont get it.

Nuge was never made to battle for his topline spot. It was a given from the outset. He actually had his first off season the lockout year. The year in which the bubble player, NHL rookie, led the team in scoring.

In a different circumstance, on a different team, looking for different things Nuge could be the bubble, Yak could be the go to. Theres often little that separates one from the other. Often it opportunity granted. Nuge has had no end of opportunity here, good for him. I'm sure he's the type of personality that affords that. He seems agreeable, amenable.

ps what "purely emotive response" do I need to rationalize? I'm responding to comments on a messageboard, out of interest, on a hobby, being a spectator to the game of hockey.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Ps, edit to edit. nothing personal taken, Heh, I lurked here and just figured you and I would have some exchanges. You can kind of pick that out on a board seeing the posters that take the time to flesh out their stance. enjoyed the discussion

 

[guymez]

Nuge was never made to battle for his topline spot. It was a given from the outset. He actually had his first off season the lockout year. The year in which the bubble player, NHL rookie, led the team in scoring.

In a different circumstance, on a different team, looking for different things Nuge could be the bubble, Yak could be the go to. Theres often little that separates one from the other. Often it opportunity granted. Nuge has had no end of opportunity here, good for him. I'm sure he's the type of personality that affords that. He seems agreeable, amenable.

ps what "purely emotive response" do I need to rationalize? I'm responding to comments on a messageboard, out of interest, on a hobby, being a spectator to the game of hockey.

Always enjoy a in depth discussion....so thanks for that.

In terms of your response...to me when you have to use hypotheticals (on the heels of a meaningless sample size of games) to support your perspective then it does look an awful lot like rationalizing. You seem to be putting a lot of effort into defending (up to now) a bubble NHL player. Surely if you didnt have an emotional investment in the player you wouldn't be defending him so vociferously.

The circumstances are what they are. Yak has to own most (not all but most) of his situation.
Case in point...remember when Gagner was demoted to the 4th line? He worked his ass off (especially defensively) so that the coaches had no choice but to give him more ice time. When the same thing happened to Yak he pouted went running to his agent. Yak never could seem to realize that he was a large part of his own issues. He wasnt comfortable owning that reality so instead he pointed the finger at everything/everyone else. Yak had the same crappy coach as all the other players around him...he could have chosen to work on other aspects of his game and become more of a team player. He chose not to. He chose to be selfish.
So when I see all these posts in support of that player (right after a basically meaningless sample of games) I really have to question the motives of the posters.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I've posted on the board for a sum total of one week. So sorry I wasn't posting about Yak or anything else prior to that given you think these are timing posts.

I'll reverse the backwards time machine and try to start posting here earlier than I did. Wait the board here is new too, lets reverse that too.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Back to Nuge, lets hope he is huge. Tonight at least, we could sure use it.

 

[guymez]

I've posted on the board for a sum total of one week. So sorry I wasn't posting about Yak or anything else prior to that given you think these are timing posts.

I'll reverse the backwards time machine and try to start posting here earlier than I did. Wait the board here is new too, lets reverse that too.

Indeed....I guess you are rather new around here.
Still doesnt dismiss the other points though. So while you are working on that feel free to respond to the rest of my post.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I wonder when we can ever end the fiction that RNH is a defensive center. What an abysmal night.

Put out there on first shift because coach loves him. Says he's been the best Oiler this season. Gets caught chasing a poor percentage fore-check on first shift, can't get back, this allows Canes an odd man break and they finish. 20secs in and Nuge gets scored against. This is the guy I keep hearing whose production is down because he's so busy taking on defensive responsibility.

FF to 3rd period and Nuge gets completely obliterated on an offensive zone faceoff. Again out there because coach loves him and its now a one goal game and we have a chance... What bad thing could happen? Staal completely overpowers Nuge on the Draw, Nuge ends up turtling on his back, Stall pushes off Nuge as he gets off ice and Nuge stays on his back hoping theres a call. Takes about 2-3secs to get up. Meanwhile Carolina on an odd man rush again with all kinds of time because of Nuge and ice the game with the easiest of goals. Nuge just seen on the replay staring at the goal light flashing once again.

Being an NHL Defensive Center requires strength, focus, commitment, and a lot of off season work. Nuge is a 7 year veteran and he got owned repeatedly like a rookie in this game. Staal was frankly laughing at how easy the dominance was. Most of the GA involving stealing candy.

 

[MessierII]

I wonder when we can ever end the fiction that RNH is a defensive center. What an abysmal night.

Put out there on first shift because coach loves him. Says he's been the best Oiler this season. Gets caught chasing a poor percentage fore-check on first shift, can't get back, this allows Canes an odd man break and they finish. 20secs in and Nuge gets scored against. This is the guy I keep hearing whose production is down because he's so busy taking on defensive responsibility.

FF to 3rd period and Nuge gets completely obliterated on an offensive zone faceoff. Again out there because coach loves him and its now a one goal game and we have a chance... What bad thing could happen? Staal completely overpowers Nuge on the Draw, Nuge ends up turtling on his back, Stall pushes off Nuge as he gets off ice and Nuge stays on his back hoping theres a call. Takes about 2-3secs to get up. Meanwhile Carolina on an odd man rush again with all kinds of time because of Nuge and ice the game with the easiest of goals. Nuge just seen on the replay staring at the goal light flashing once again.

Being an NHL Defensive Center requires strength, focus, commitment, and a lot of off season work. Nuge is a 7 year veteran and he got owned repeatedly like a rookie in this game. Staal was frankly laughing at how easy the dominance was. Most of the GA involving stealing candy.

Staal had 0 points on the season coming into tonight too. 4 point night as soon as he gets to play agains little baby Nuge.

 

[Soundwave]

RNH is a no.2 center. He's not a defensive center. He needs to just forget that.

Go and produce offence, just don't give up Hall/Eberle/Yakupov type "total disregard for any system play" type goals and try hard on the back check, but yeah enough with the "defensive center" crap.

He needs to show why he's paid 3x more than a Ryan Strome this year and that means playing far less of a vanilla game. If we want vanilla, 2.5 million already does that.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I wonder when we can ever end the fiction that RNH is a defensive center. What an abysmal night.

Put out there on first shift because coach loves him. Says he's been the best Oiler this season. Gets caught chasing a poor percentage fore-check on first shift, can't get back, this allows Canes an odd man break and they finish. 20secs in and Nuge gets scored against. This is the guy I keep hearing whose production is down because he's so busy taking on defensive responsibility.

FF to 3rd period and Nuge gets completely obliterated on an offensive zone faceoff. Again out there because coach loves him and its now a one goal game and we have a chance... What bad thing could happen? Staal completely overpowers Nuge on the Draw, Nuge ends up turtling on his back, Stall pushes off Nuge as he gets off ice and Nuge stays on his back hoping theres a call. Takes about 2-3secs to get up. Meanwhile Carolina on an odd man rush again with all kinds of time because of Nuge and ice the game with the easiest of goals. Nuge just seen on the replay staring at the goal light flashing once again.

Being an NHL Defensive Center requires strength, focus, commitment, and a lot of off season work. Nuge is a 7 year veteran and he got owned repeatedly like a rookie in this game. Staal was frankly laughing at how easy the dominance was. Most of the GA involving stealing candy.

I wonder if people will stop making shit up to dislike a player.

You are blaming the first goal on Nuge when I was caused when our alleged number one defender makes the world's worst Justin Schultz pinch which leads to the breakaway. Of he took the standard play, that doesn't happen.

The goal when he is on his back? He is being laid on and is tangled up by Staal, Staal gets up. Nuge is slow to get up cause he just had a dude pushing him against the ice.

Seriously. I am tired with people here and their "seeing what they want to see" bull shit to throw players under the bus that don't deserve it.

 

[Soundwave]

That play is on Klefbom (so are two other goals). But criticism of RNH is fair. He needs to go back and play like rookie RNH. I don't want to hear why that isn't possible.

There is no reason for it to not be possible. Play to your potential. We don't need 6 million dollar player who is more or less equivalent to a Ryan Strome that we pay 2.5 million for.

I'll save you the end of this movie, but if he does not bring his game up a notch, he is not going to be here next year. He needs to play with more urgency.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Staal had 0 points on the season coming into tonight too. 4 point night as soon as he gets to play agains little baby Nuge.

He's owned him before too. He does seem to look forward to these mismatches.

I wonder if people will stop making **** up to dislike a player.

You are blaming the first goal on Nuge when I was caused when our alleged number one defender makes the world's worst Justin Schultz pinch which leads to the breakaway. Of he took the standard play, that doesn't happen.

The goal when he is on his back? He is being laid on and is tangled up by Staal, Staal gets up. Nuge is slow to get up cause he just had a dude pushing him against the ice.

Seriously. I am tired with people here and their "seeing what they want to see" bull **** to throw players under the bus that don't deserve it.

Klef is not our #1 D. He wouldn't be the #1 D on any team in the league.

Nuge is out of the play, of his own accord, on the first rush and shift of the hockey game when he has clearly setout priorities of containment for the game. Thus the matchups. He fails this on the first shift. You somehow preclude him of any responsibility on the play?

Nuge is flat on his back on an offensive zone faceoff, a critical faceoff, that ends up deciding the game. You somehow preclude Nuge having any responsibility for allowing himself to be put on his back on a key draw?

 

[Soundwave]

He's owned him before too. He does seem to look forward to these mismatches.

Klef is not our #1 D. He wouldn't be the #1 D on any team in the league.

Nuge is out of the play, of his own accord, on the first rush and shift of the hockey game when he has clearly setout priorities of containment for the game. Thus the matchups. He fails this on the first shift. You somehow preclude him of any responsibility on the play?

Nuge is flat on his back on an offensive zone faceoff, a critical faceoff, that ends up deciding the game. You somehow preclude Nuge having any responsibility for allowing himself to be put on his back on a key draw?

I can't agree with you on that. That first goal is pure Klefdumb. What the hell are you even thinking as a D when you pinch on the 1st shift of the game when you know the team is giving up way too many goals, sweet merciful crap.

 

[CycloneSweep]

That play is on Klefbom (so are two other goals). But criticism of RNH is fair. He needs to go back and play like rookie RNH. I don't want to hear why that isn't possible.

There is no reason for it to not be possible. Play to your potential. We don't need 6 million dollar player who is more or less equivalent to a Ryan Strome that we pay 2.5 million for.

I'll save you the end of this movie, but if he does not bring his game up a notch, he is not going to be here next year. He needs to play with more urgency.

Nuge is tied for second in points with 3. He is tied with 3 other players with a +/- of +1.

5v5 this season he has been on the ice for 2 goals against. McDavid has been on for 6. His line has actually been on for less chances against too.

So all these people saying "Nuge still sucks" and bull shit like that. Nuge has stepped up this year, people just want someone to blame like they always do.

 

[Soundwave]

Nuge is tied for second in points with 3. He is tied with 3 other players with a +/- of +1.

5v5 this season he has been on the ice for 2 goals against. McDavid has been on for 6. His line has actually been on for less chances against too.

So all these people saying "Nuge still sucks" and bull **** like that. Nuge has stepped up this year, people just want someone to blame like they always do.

Patrick Maroon has 3 points too ... would you pay him $6 million dollars?

RNH is held to a (much) higher standard given this franchise bombed an entire season to get him, used a 1st overall pick to select him (instead of Adam Larsson ...) and the massive amount of money and time they have invested into him.

He needs to be better than just vanilla. Ryan Strome can do that same job, maybe even better for $2.5 million dollars if it's vanilla that you're satisfied with.

It's like we paid $70k for a Honda Accord.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I can't agree with you on that. That first goal is pure Klefdumb. What the hell are you even thinking as a D when you pinch on the 1st shift of the game when you know the team is giving up way too many goals, sweet merciful crap.

To be clear I'm not absolving either one. Both were obviously clueless on the play and lacked awareness. That this is the first shift of the hockey game on home ice in which coach gets the matchup wanted is completely embarrassing.

But as stated I don't expect as much from Klefbom as should be expected from Nuge. One is supposed to be a premier hockey player.

 

[CycloneSweep]

He's owned him before too. He does seem to look forward to these mismatches.

Klef is not our #1 D. He wouldn't be the #1 D on any team in the league.

Nuge is out of the play, of his own accord, on the first rush and shift of the hockey game when he has clearly setout priorities of containment for the game. Thus the matchups. He fails this on the first shift. You somehow preclude him of any responsibility on the play?

Nuge is flat on his back on an offensive zone faceoff, a critical faceoff, that ends up deciding the game. You somehow preclude Nuge having any responsibility for allowing himself to be put on his back on a key draw?

Go rewatch the play if you think you are so smart.

*Note this is after Nuge got kneed by Faulk and had to leave the ice

He gets up a split second after Staal does, he is following him. Larsson and Nurse both take Staal and both ignore Slavin who is streaking down the wing.

There is no Nuge, staying on the ice waiting for a call.

So like I said, stop making bull shit up and use your eyes.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Patrick Maroon has 3 points too ... would you pay him $6 million dollars?

RNH is held to a (much) higher standard given this franchise bombed an entire season to get him, used a 1st overall pick to select him (instead of Adam Larsson ...) and the massive amount of money and time they have invested into him.

He needs to be better than just vanilla. Ryan Strome can do that same job, maybe even better for $2.5 million dollars if it's vanilla that you're satisfied with.

It's like we paid $70k for a Honda Accord.

Dude you are obsessed with career high 50 point Ryan Strome so much. Is he your brother?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Nuge is tied for second in points with 3. He is tied with 3 other players with a +/- of +1.

5v5 this season he has been on the ice for 2 goals against. McDavid has been on for 6. His line has actually been on for less chances against too.

So all these people saying "Nuge still sucks" and bull **** like that. Nuge has stepped up this year, people just want someone to blame like they always do.

A little early to be saying that Nuge has stepped up after 5 games of a season when he's been completely disappointing the last complete 2 seasons.
I dare say we need more sample before turning that page.

3 points

1 on a perfect behind the net feed from Maroon in which Nuge only needed to finish into half an empty net.

1 goal on breakaway, nice finish, impressive play by Nuge.

His one assist an inconsequential touch of the puck. Strome made the brilliant play of holding onto the puck and fighting off his opponent long enough to do the drop pass to Lucic.

As for McDavid in fairness a lot of the things that have happened are due to him having this club clearly on his back and that he needs to take chances when the club is chronically multiple goals down. McD will settle in and is an infinitely better all round center than Nuge.

 

[Soundwave]

To be clear I'm not absolving either one. Both were obviously clueless on the play and lacked awareness. That this is the first shift of the hockey game on home ice in which coach gets the matchup wanted is completely embarrassing.

But as stated I don't expect as much from Klefbom as should be expected from Nuge. One is supposed to be a premier hockey player.

They both are. Difference is Klefbom is playing like Mark Fayne right now. Nuge is just Nuging, but I've kinda had it with that too. I'm done with lowering my bar for Nugent Hopkins. You're a better f***ing player than this. Play like it.

 

[CycloneSweep]

A little early to be saying that Nuge has stepped up after 5 games of a season when he's been completely disappointing the last complete 2 seasons.
I dare say we need more sample before turning that page.

3 points

1 on a perfect behind the net feed from Maroon in which Nuge only needed to finish into half an empty net.

1 goal on breakaway, nice finish, impressive play by Nuge.

His one assist an inconsequential touch of the puck. Strome made the brilliant play of holding onto the puck and fighting off his opponent long enough to do the drop pass to Lucic.

As for McDavid in fairness a lot of the things that have happened are due to him having this club clearly on his back and that he needs to take chances when the club is chronically multiple goals down. McD will settle in and is an infinitely better all round center than Nuge.

He doesn't score when he is supposed to "he sucks"
He scores when he is supposed to "still sucks he was supposed to score"

f*** he could score 60 points this year and you people would say "Doesn't count he played 3 minutes with McDavid and sucked last year"