GDT: Rush GDT Squared, New Jersey Yukons @ Arizona Misfit Toys

[billingtons ghost]

We were also down 3-0 with 8 minutes left, so obviously the defense is going to be more aggressive. It also didn't help that Greene just kind of stood there with his thumb up his ass neither taking the passer or the shooter. Wood made a nice effort on the backcheck, but couldn't quite get his stick there to deflect the pass.

This entire argument is beyond old at this point though. God forbid we just be happy with two young defensemen. We have to go to war over it and nitpick every ****ing play to prove we're right.

I'm as happy as anyone we've got to great young Dmen.

The argument, however, is pertinent because one of them sat the bench tonight (rightfully, after a couple of bad games) but he's actually the better defenseman right now, even though he's had fewer games in the league.

It isn't just one play - it is one bonehead goal every couple of games -

There's all kinda rationalization that could go on - but the bottom line is -
1. he didn't have a CHANCE at the puck on that play
2. ALL of your forwards are below the dots.

You guys DO watch hockey, right? You are cognizant that this is truly an AWFUL time to pinch, right?

 

[MadDevil]

Zajac has played 19+ minutes twice in 9 games.

 

[Bleedred]

Team hasn’t been fun to watch? Hmmm

Well tonight wasn’t fun. I enjoyed last night though. Definitely agree the Florida game wasn’t fun. The Detroit and Vancouver games were fun though. Definitely a nice holiday weekend. Boston was meh. Minnesota was fine.

Sounds like hyperbole to me.

I'd agree, if you flip flopped the Boston game with the Minnesota game. The Boston game was good, we deserved to win, but lost in the shootout. The Minnesota game was awful, I thought we deserved to lose that one, but we lost to Boston one instead, as compensation. I thought the Minnesota game was ugly.

 

[Bramskii]

Missed the game but read through the thread and the over reacting by almost everyone is ridiculous. This is the sort of thing I'd expect from Leafs fans. We knew all along this team was probably going to a be a bubble team. A hot start to the season and everyone's acting like we're the 2013 Blackhawks. This is still a g'ood team and I expect them to still be in a playoff spot come seasons end. One bad game doesn't change a season.

 

[Bleedred]

Zajac has played 19+ minutes twice in 9 games.

The last two night's he's played 19+ minutes. 19:44 tonight, 19:06 last night.

When you look at his TOI (which is not updated through tonight's game), he's averaging 16:49 per night. Just his last 6 games though, that I see up here. He's played at least 17:02 a night, and has been at 18:23 or higher in 4 of those games. Too much icetime to not have a single point this year. This is the kind of stuff that we're (I'm assuming) benching Zacha for. For not providing enough offense.

 

[MadDevil]

So he made a mistake. It happens. Should I go find footage of all the times we've been stuck in our own zone because Santini failed to clear a puck?

 

[billingtons ghost]

Come on man, plus/minus? Really? Really? What kind of a dinosaur do you gotta be to still care about this stat? I feel like the internet shouldn't even exist, if we're arguing about that prehistoric stat.

I suppose Coleman, Noesen, Lovejoy, Butcher and Johansson all earned their minus for that soft goal that Strome scored on Kinkaid, right?

And a dump in from the blue line towards the goalie and into a defenseman's ankle bumps someone's Corsi? Hypocritical much?

Plus minus means puck in the net. I think people forget sometimes how the game is actually played or what constitutes as winning.

People dump on it - and with some reason, because there are no good stats that truly and accurately describe 'Good Hockey Plays' .... but go look at +/- leaders all time and you'll find every great defenseman.

 

[billingtons ghost]

So he made a mistake. It happens. Should I go find footage of all the times we've been stuck in our own zone because Santini failed to clear a puck?

You can if the puck ends up in the net.

I'm ecstatic if someone pushes Santini down the depth chart. It's a tiny sample set, but Vatanan's career arc this year (and ending up 3rd pairing in ANA) makes it unfortunately less likely he'll be that guy.

I'm just saying - I don't think Severson pushes anyone down the lineup. (yet) and we're going to stunt his growth and confidence by putting him up there again. I mean, it was a very different team last year (well, at least before Boyle, Hayes, Zajac and Stafford are in the lineup together) but do you really want to see another bazillion even-strength goals against Severson? His neck was burned from the red light last year. Is that good for his development?

It should speak volumes that Lovejoy actually ended up playing top pairing minutes.

If anything, keep stuffing Vatanan up there until you're sure he can't do it.

I'm just worried we're going to break Severson.

 

[Bleedred]

What a pathetic embarrassment. Team is not good, coach is worse. If they show otherwise the rest of the way, I'll come on here and say I was wrong.

Weren't you just getting on me the other night (unless I misunderstood you and got you all wrong) for critiquing Hynes? Seems a lot of people flip flop on him, whether we win or lose.

I've been adamant since at least last November or so, that he wasn't a very good coach. My friend has been firmly saying it since November of the year before. He ain't gonna cost a loaded roster a playoff spot, but I really think he can do enough harm to cause a stacked team to not achieve their full potential. Vatanen and Henrique shouldn't have problems adapting to their new teams, both coaches seem to play the same style.

By the way, John Moore's pathetic moment on the second goal, looks a lot worse when you only see the highlights. When you watch the entire 1st period, the whole team is a disgrace. I absolved Hynes of blame for that Panthers trainwreck, but this here was really awful. Second loss and pathetic start against a piece of suck team this week. Good thing we don't have to play the Panthers, Coyotes or Oilers this week.

 

[Jets012]

And a dump in from the blue line towards the goalie and into a defenseman's ankle bumps someone's Corsi? Hypocritical much?

Plus minus means puck in the net. I think people forget sometimes how the game is actually played or what constitutes as winning.

People dump on it - and with some reason, because there are no good stats that truly and accurately describe 'Good Hockey Plays' .... but go look at +/- leaders all time and you'll find every great defenseman.

Fine we will use Goals on the 5 on 5 and expected goals then going into today:

Goals For:
Santini: 10
Severson: 21

Goals Against:
Santini: 13
Severson: 17

Expected Goals For:
Santini: 9.86
Severson: 18.61

Expected Goals Against:
Santini: 16.25
Severson: 16.87

 

[billingtons ghost]

Weren't you just getting on me the other night (unless I misunderstood you and got you all wrong) for critiquing Hynes? Seems a lot of people flip flop on him, whether we win or lose.

I've been adamant since at least last November or so, that he wasn't a very good coach. My friend has been firmly saying it since November of the year before. He ain't gonna cost a loaded roster a playoff spot, but I really think he can do enough harm to cause a stacked team to not achieve their full potential. Vatanen and Henrique shouldn't have problems adapting to their new teams, both coaches seem to play the same style.

By the way, John Moore's pathetic moment on the second goal, looks a lot worse when you only see the highlights. When you watch the entire 1st period, the whole team is a disgrace. I absolved Hynes of blame for that Panthers trainwreck, but this here was really awful. Second loss and pathetic start against a piece of suck team this week. Good thing we don't have to play the Panthers, Coyotes or Oilers this week.

I'll agree with just about everything you said here. In spades. Hope Vats figures it out though - he's a little lost around our crease.

 

[glenwo2]

BURN THE TAPES!! BURN 'EM TO ASHES!!

Focus on Columbus and bring some goddamn EFFORT next time, Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[billingtons ghost]

Fine we will use Goals on the 5 on 5 and expected goals then going into today:

Goals For:
Santini: 10
Severson: 21

Goals Against:
Santini: 13
Severson: 17

Expected Goals For:
Santini: 9.86
Severson: 18.61

Expected Goals Against:
Santini: 16.25
Severson: 16.87

Exactly. If you weight the above by the Dzone starts and the type of competition, and then changed the pairings to put Sevs on the first pairing and Santini in the pressbox it would change drastically.

How many goals against was he on the ice for last year?

Playing first pairing, his goals for would go up (by benefit of better forwards in front?) but with more D zone starts against better players, his GA would skyrocket.

Your case above accurately proves that with comparitively inferior competition and fewer Dzone starts, about the same amount of pucks still end up in our net with Severson on the ice. Why not let him develop his game with fewer defensive responsibilities?

 

[Comparison Ford]

Burn the tapes.

Zacha in for Hayes, Santini in for Lovejoy.

Let's see what we got against our division. This is where we will show our true identity.

 

[Bleedred]

And a dump in from the blue line towards the goalie and into a defenseman's ankle bumps someone's Corsi? Hypocritical much?

Plus minus means puck in the net. I think people forget sometimes how the game is actually played or what constitutes as winning.

People dump on it - and with some reason, because there are no good stats that truly and accurately describe 'Good Hockey Plays' .... but go look at +/- leaders all time and you'll find every great defenseman.

Except when you get scored on, it's not necessarily every or any of the skaters on the ice at that current point in time's fault.

Should we kill Lovejoy for being on the ice for that awful soft goal late in the game?

Once again, we've been over this before. Most of the great defenseman that leads plus/minus, also played on GREAT teams.

Alright, let's do this, let's go through them! Larry Robinson, has he ever played on a non-playoff team before in his career? I'm not seeing a year that he didn't play in the playoffs during his career. What I do notice, is how his plus/minus seemed to be a lot better in the 70's when the Habs were a dynasty team. If you look at his career, you'll notice that in the years that Canadiens weren't really the best team in the league anymore, he was still a plus player by a whole lot, but the numbers weren't nearly as high. From 85-86 onward, he never hit +30 again. And before 82-83, he hit +40 seven different times. Never again after that, when the Canadiens weren't a juggernaut anymore.

Bobby Orr? I'm pretty sure his gaudy plus/minus numbers taking a dive, coincided with the strength of his team(s) taking a dive.

Ray Bourque? His teams were making the playoffs every year, up until the late 90's. And then in the worst season the Bruins had with him there for and I think it was the first non-playoff year that he was there for (96-97) lo and behold, he has a -11 for the season. And from then on, he had either low plus numbers or was a minus. Then when he goes to Colorado for a full year, he resurrects this plus/minus to a +25 at 40 years old! And on arguably the best team he had been on in years, if not his entire career.

Wayne Gretzky? Not a defenseman, but he's fourth all time in plus minus. He was a minus player in 7 of the last 8 years of his career. Is it because he was old and wasn't scoring 100+ points and was not as good anymore? Maybe a little bit, but notice how when he left Edmonton and all his buddies, his plus/minus started to take a turn in the other direction. just take a look at it. He even scored 121 points in 91-92 and was still a -12. He scored 130 points in 93-94 and was still a -25! Is this because Gretzky stopped playing defense all of the sudden?

 

[Bleedred]

Seriously Hiney Head, why the hell do you scratch Zacha tonight? He even had a point a couple games ago. Handicapping the roster, with another slow player, making a change that wasn't needed after last night. You can never figure this guy out. Like you know he's gonna make a change with the D after this game, and Severson led the team in ice time, so you would think he ain't coming out. Usually, if you wanna look to who is gonna be the healthy scratch next game (if there is one) the biggest hint is in who got the abnormally low ice time the game before. Zacha definitely had that on Friday night, but even I didn't think he'd be a healthy scratch tonight. I didn't see that coming.

But we'll play Zajac for 17+ minutes a game (18 or 19 lately for the most part), we'll play him and Boyle on the same power play unit.

Why the need for a change? If there was anything wrong with the way we played in Colorado, it was that we didn't generate enough scoring chances. Why put an inferior in? It was almost like he was saying ''We can Arizona, they're a cream of the crap team! We got this one! I don't need to ice my best lineup!''.

 

[zharkenby]

Missed the game but read through the thread and the over reacting by almost everyone is ridiculous. This is the sort of thing I'd expect from Leafs fans. We knew all along this team was probably going to a be a bubble team. A hot start to the season and everyone's acting like we're the 2013 Blackhawks. This is still a g'ood team and I expect them to still be in a playoff spot come seasons end. One bad game doesn't change a season.

Just curious... you use the term over reacting. Do you think it’s fine for a “playoff team” to get manhandled and blown out by the worst team in the nhl? What kind of reactions did you expect? Younand Hynes would probably get a long

 

[Bleedred]

Just curious... you use the term over reacting. Do you think it’s fine for a “playoff team” to get manhandled and blown out by the worst team in the nhl? What kind of reactions did you expect? Younand Hynes would probably get a long

Judging by his other posts, I don't think he's a huge fan of Hynes....

 

[Bleedred]

Just looking at the top 50 all time in plus/minus. There’s only one active player on this list. Wanna guess who it is? Frickin Jagr.

Hossa and Datsyuk are the only other guys on this list that I’m not noticing, who played in this decade. Peter Forsberg doesn’t count. He played 2 games in 10-11, after being inactive in the NHL since 3 years before that. LOL forgot Chelios last played an NHL game in 09-10 for the Thrashers. There’s another one. A guy who played for damn near 30 years.

 

[Tao Jersey Jones]

Yes but he also hasn’t been healthy. He only got back into the line up a week or two ago from a concussion.

Amanda said it was a shoulder injury. Could have been a misdirection though. Q scored a goal and an assist in his first two games back to maintain his point per game pace and then nothing in the last three games.

 

[Bleedred]

i can’t believe I watched that entire game. Dano and Steve giggling and saying this was the worst of our 26 games this year. It was certainly between this and our game on Monday night against the Panthers.

We actually came out of the locker room for the 2nd period tonight. Didn’t come out until the 3rd period against Florida.

I think the worst games this season were probably tonight’s game, Panthers game last week, first Panthers game, maybe the Minnesota game and the first game against the Oilers. Many people wil say Winnipeg, but we actually looked good in the first period that game. Something that can’t be said for any of the games that I mentioned. Our start against the Rangers was really bad. It started out like many of those games, only Kinkaid actually made some saves.

 

[MadDevil]

Just curious... you use the term over reacting. Do you think it’s fine for a “playoff team” to get manhandled and blown out by the worst team in the nhl? What kind of reactions did you expect? Younand Hynes would probably get a long

A blowout once in a while isn't the end of the world. If it happens 2-3-4 games in a row, then it's time to seriously worry. And even the worst team in the league can beat a good team on any given night if the other team plays poorly, which we did in the first period.

It's fine to be critical of the team, but the over the top chicken little posts got to be a bit much tonight. Yeah, it sucked. Big picture though, we're still doing pretty well for ourselves. We were bound to hit a rough patch at some point.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Is some kind of sick humor?

I believe that it was a mildly sarcastic way to tell those who have criticized Hall for this game to remember the kind of season he had (= amazing) and not to dwell on one bad game. That's the way I read it.

 

[Bleedred]

I think this may have been the worst game of the season for probably 12-14 players? I feel weird ranking this game as worse than Florida. The excuse of the Florida game was the end of a 7 game in 12 night stretch. We did play the night before in a different city, but we usually look much better than this. It was awful. For what it's worth, my friend was at the Avs game and said there was an accident on I-70 westbound on his way home. That's the fastest and most practical route from Pepsi Center to DIA, so maybe they got stuck in that and the plane had to leave later.

Ironically, I don't think it was Kinkaid's worst game of the season, even though I'm sure it's a low in save percentage for a single game. Sadly, I thought he played worse against Chicago (a couple stoppables ones in the 1st period of that game), Ottawa and Detroit last week and about the same against Calgary. Even though he was tested much more in those games. Arizona probably scored on almost every chance they had last night (Scoring chances were 11-8 in favor of the Coyotes) and only the Strome goal was weak.

 

[Sir Fenwick Corsi]

I’m still irritated with kinkaid getting the start. And I’m not just saying that because of the result. Cory may have played the prior night, but it wasn’t a particularly taxing game and he had three nights off prior to it. They also don’t play again until Tuesday and he’s simply far superior to kinkaid. I just don’t understand the reasoning to not play your better player in this situation. You knew you were going to see a motivated wedgewood, why give even more motivation by starting the player you chose over him? I don’t know, just a real bad optic imho. I don’t even think Cory could have saved this one tbh, but just play your better player. This is why he’s the starter.