Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXV

[EdJovanovski]

You just don't know with Zibanejad.

He could go either way. The Brad Richards/Lecavalier route where you're toast by 34, or the Sakic route where you're still plugging in your late 30s.

The reality is usually somewhere in between. In five years I see Zibby as a solid offensive 2C, but possibly no longer seeing max minutes including PK usage.

Hard to say, he was a late bloomer; but he’s inconsistent and doesn’t seem like a person who’s extremely passionate about hockey. I’ll never forget him saying on a podcast that hockey wasn’t his favorite sport

 

[duhmetreE]

I'd argue having a second young center who can be a 1C type (even if more defensively inclined but only 60-ish points) is almost a necessity.

I think Mika lasting 4 more years at his current level is relatively optimistic. That's why a top - 10ish type now is very important. In 2-3 years that kid will be ready to take some of the pressure off.

Copp is more of a 2/3 than a 1/2. We need the latter... if not two of them.

We more than likely have different definitions of 1C. Mika is our 1C.

A 'future 1C' is a top pick or a scratch off that we hit on. No one is trading young, cost-controlled 1C's. You have to draft or develop your centers. We got lucky with Zibs, ie we got a scratch off.

Tampa won b2b with Point-Cirelli-Gourde. We need strong 2way Centers.

 

[bl02]

GG is gonna have to start resting some guys if we lock in that 2nd seed. If kakko and motte are out for regular season and possibly more we are very close to seeing the likes of mckegg come back if we suffer anymore forward injuries

 

[JimmyG89]

GG is gonna have to start resting some guys if we lock in that 2nd seed. If kakko and motte are out for regular season and possibly more we are very close to seeing the likes of mckegg come back if we suffer anymore forward injuries

Those last two games are the perfect time. Play the playoff lineup for Carolina and sit the top 4 D and Top 6 F after that. Four emergency recalls after the deadline. Two for defense, two for forwards. If Kakko is back as GG expects, that helps. Maybe Goodrow sits one game of the last two and one of the top 6 can shuffle in for him, but play basically no minutes.

Last two games: (Sit Panarin-Strome-Copp, Kreider-Zibanejad-Vatrano, Lindgren-Fox, and Miller-Trouba)

Laf-Chytil-Kakko
McKegg-Brodzinski-Gauthier
Hunt-Rooney-Goodrow
AHL-AHL-Reaves

Nemeth-Schneider
Hajek-Braun
Jones-Lundkvist

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Hard to say, he was a late bloomer; but he’s inconsistent and doesn’t seem like a person who’s extremely passionate about hockey. I’ll never forget him saying on a podcast that hockey wasn’t his favorite sport

This speculation is worthless. No one knows this other than people who personally know Mika. And from all info that we are privy to, he is one of the hardest working and most dedicated players on the team.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think the expectation that this team is going to find another 1C to play behind Zibanejad may be setting he bar a bit too high. The team has quite a few resources dumped in to their defense and wingers. Whether we like it or not, the center ice position is going to need to be cost controlled and having another 70-80 point center, while nice, will mean hard decisions elsewhere. It's why someone like Copp, who appears to hover around 50 points over an 82 game schedule, is kind of ideal. Sign him to a nice, longer term deal and have him settle in somewhere in that middle-6 as a center providing PK, PP and ES minutes that value the team overall.

Danault would have been another very good option in that specific role. The wingers are going to need to carry the water in terms of offensive output on lines 2 and 3.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I agree, but only with the exception that Othmann is closer than that. He'll get his 9 games next season I think and he'll go from there.

I'd have a serious discussion with the kid about going to an NCAA program for a year or two if they don't think he's ready. He destroyed the OHL this year with practically no help and I don't think he has anything left to accomplish or work on there.

You can't play NCAA hockey after playing major junior (WHL, OHL, QMJHL). Since major junior players get a weekly stipend, they're technically getting paid, and are thus ineligible for NCAA hockey.

Canadians that are planning on going the NCAA route have to play in a second tier junior league, like the BCHL/AJHL/OJHL. We've had a bunch of kids go that route. None really ever panned out, but the most notable NHLer to do it lately was Makar. Played in the AJHL for 3 seasons, went to UMass for 2 years, then stepped right onto the Avs during the playoffs. Another Avs player, Alex Newhook, did something similar in the BCHL/BC.

All that to say, it's (unfortunately) NHL or OHL for Othmann next season. He can't go anywhere else.

 

[zlev]

This speculation is worthless. No one knows this other than people who personally know Mika. And from all info that we are privy to, he is one of the hardest working and most dedicated players on the team.

he was our best player the last time we were in the playoffs (2017, not the covid tournament) by far

 

[mas0764]

We more than likely have different definitions of 1C. Mika is our 1C.

A 'future 1C' is a top pick or a scratch off that we hit on. No one is trading young, cost-controlled 1C's. You have to draft or develop your centers. We got lucky with Zibs, ie we got a scratch off.

Tampa won b2b with Point-Cirelli-Gourde. We need strong 2way Centers.

TB has insane depth everywhere though. The easiest way to insulate our future core would be to get someone who can be a good 2C now and transition to 1C as Mika declines into a 2C role, which will happen at some point in his unmovable contract.

And yes I understand that Copp may be re-signed but like I said I see him as a super 2/3 utility player more than a classic 2C/future 1C. Getting that issue solved would go a long, long way.

Yeah I know it's unlikely (though not impossible) you could obtain a Lundell type from some team.

But that's why this suggestion was about moving up in the draft and drafting one. The problem with drafting at 25 is that there are so few options that will pan out. Your odds are way better if you could move up.

 

[mas0764]

I think the expectation that this team is going to find another 1C to play behind Zibanejad may be setting he bar a bit too high. The team has quite a few resources dumped in to their defense and wingers. Whether we like it or not, the center ice position is going to need to be cost controlled and having another 70-80 point center, while nice, will mean hard decisions elsewhere. It's why someone like Copp, who appears to hover around 50 points over an 82 game schedule, is kind of ideal. Sign him to a nice, longer term deal and have him settle in somewhere in that middle-6 as a center providing PK, PP and ES minutes that value the team overall.

Danault would have been another very good option in that specific role. The wingers are going to need to carry the water in terms of offensive output on lines 2 and 3.

The team has the resources to make a move for an asset-expensive acquisition or two at center - see it's chase of Eichel this past summer.

 

[haohmaru]

Yeah, a lot of moving parts in that plan. And moving out Nemeth and not signing either Copp or Strome is happening anyway. Doing so still does not free up cap space for guys like Vatrano and Motte. The only way you could bring back someone like Vatrano at ~$3m and Motte and ~$2m would be to free yourself of another big salary.

On it's face I don't think you'd trade Trouba for Motte and Vatrano. But when you factor in a potential 1C also, that becomes way more enticing.

I think people are overrating Trouba a bit. His metrics do not paint the picture of a truly top end defender. If anything his value comes from his offense, really.

I don't think the drop off defensively is nearly as big as people are insinuating by going from him to Schneider. Especially when you factor in improvements from Miller.

And I think you routinely overrate prospects that haven't proven shit at an NHL level as a solutions. This constant "potential 1C, young C prospect with top six potential, young center, etc..." - every team in the NHL wants these players.

Just look at the guy you've thrown around in the past - Kupari. 12 points in 50something games. Is that a guy that's a solution here behind, let's say, Zibanejad and Copp at the expense of Trouba? Does that make sense for this team TODAY with Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider, etc... in their window? I don't think it does.

If Lundkvist is going the other way and a guy like that plays a couple of years in a 3C role and grows into his shoes, so to speak, then that's fine. Trouba, right now, is not the guy that should be going the other direction when considering this team, presently.

And while people might "overrate" Trouba and his metrics, they also overlook (to use your words) the picture that Trouba paints on this team with leadership, game-impacting body checks, offense with limited PP time, point shot unrivaled on the team, etc... I'm all for metrics but it's only part of the equation.

 

[rangers1314]

The team has the resources to make a move for an asset-expensive acquisition or two at center - see it's chase of Eichel this past summer.

Didn't we come to learn that they were never really in on JE? Especially after Drury took over.

 

[I Eat Crow]

You can't play NCAA hockey after playing major junior (WHL, OHL, QMJHL). Since major junior players get a weekly stipend, they're technically getting paid, and are thus ineligible for NCAA hockey.

Canadians that are planning on going the NCAA route have to play in a second tier junior league, like the BCHL/AJHL/OJHL. We've had a bunch of kids go that route. None really ever panned out, but the most notable NHLer to do it lately was Makar. Played in the AJHL for 3 seasons, went to UMass for 2 years, then stepped right onto the Avs during the playoffs. Another Avs player, Alex Newhook, did something similar in the BCHL/BC.

All that to say, it's (unfortunately) NHL or OHL for Othmann next season. He can't go anywhere else.

I stand corrected. I was wondering why we don't see this at all. Would make sense since it's not allowed.

Meh, I hope he makes his case to stay on the team next year. I really don't think another OHL year would benefit him much.

 

[Tob]

confirmed Trouba has sex

 

[IDvsEGO]

You can't play NCAA hockey after playing major junior (WHL, OHL, QMJHL). Since major junior players get a weekly stipend, they're technically getting paid, and are thus ineligible for NCAA hockey.

Canadians that are planning on going the NCAA route have to play in a second tier junior league, like the BCHL/AJHL/OJHL. We've had a bunch of kids go that route. None really ever panned out, but the most notable NHLer to do it lately was Makar. Played in the AJHL for 3 seasons, went to UMass for 2 years, then stepped right onto the Avs during the playoffs. Another Avs player, Alex Newhook, did something similar in the BCHL/BC.

All that to say, it's (unfortunately) NHL or OHL for Othmann next season. He can't go anywhere else.

Makar and newhook.

 

[Miamipuck]

confirmed Trouba has sex

Copp didn't confirm they had sex in that tweet.

 

[rangers1314]

confirmed Trouba has sex

I read that as Copp having the sex.

 

[mas0764]

Didn't we come to learn that they were never really in on JE? Especially after Drury took over.

We learned the opposite.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Copp didn't confirm they had sex in that tweet.

What tweet?

 

[Miamipuck]

What tweet?

The one Tob quoted from Vince.

 

[rangers1314]

We learned the opposite.

We made a legit offer at the draft, but at the time of the trade NYR weren't in the mix. Is that incorrect?

 

[MrAlmost]

Getting his own place? Interesting. Only 2 weeks in the season and who knows how long they will be in the playoffs. Perhaps Copp is thinking about re-signing.

 

[haohmaru]

Copp didn't confirm they had sex in that tweet.

Implied, IMHO

 

[mas0764]

And I think you routinely overrate prospects that haven't proven shit at an NHL level as a solutions. This constant "potential 1C, young C prospect with top six potential, young center, etc..." - every team in the NHL wants these players.

Just look at the guy you've thrown around in the past - Kupari. 12 points in 50something games. Is that a guy that's a solution here behind, let's say, Zibanejad and Copp at the expense of Trouba? Does that make sense for this team TODAY with Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider, etc... in their window? I don't think it does.

Did I suggest trading Trouba for Kupari? No.

Would I rather have Kupari and a first in here instead of Blais? Hell yes.

Does it make sense to get a guy like Lambert in here? Also hell yes. I'm looking for ways to make that happen.

If you turn your nose up at even the concept of trying to add top - 10 talent to the team than you are just unreasonably married to the current roster. You should always be looking to add top talent.

I'm not advocating that this is the only way to go about it. It was a suggestion that makes sense in that it can accomplish a couple objectives in one transaction. On top of that it's most unlikely because I don't know that you could talk Trouba into waiving and I don't know that he'd have that value to other teams around the league (which should also tell you something).

But thinking outside the box shouldn't be off the table either. This "our roster is set," rhetoric is a guise for people who like the current players personally and don't want to move them.

If Lundkvist is going the other way and a guy like that plays a couple of years in a 3C role and grows into his shoes, so to speak, then that's fine.

Well I'm glad we agree that we need young future centers at least.

Trouba, right now, is not the guy that should be going the other direction when considering this team, presently.

If you don't like the deal that is fine. But I can't possibly get behind the idea that he's an unmovable cornerstone of the present incarnation of the team - let alone that we shouldn't dare bother exploring whether his subtraction now is worth a gain later. He's not even really that good.

Schneider's defensive metrics are already better than Trouba's actually, and so are Millers - the Miller who plays on the same pair and draws mostly the same matchups. The biggest thing you would be losing is Trouba's offensive output but I'm not gonna lose too much sleep over that because I have Fox.

There has not been an argument made that is remotely persuasive that Trouba's production isn't replaceable other than non-tangible things such as "game changing hits," "experience" and "leadership," which are the constant fall-back positions due to how nebulous they are when people are arguing against moving someone.

His worth to this team is not going to approach his cap hit as players like Miller and Schneider (and Jones and Robertson) ascend. That is hurting the team moving forward more than it helps.

 

[mas0764]

We made a legit offer at the draft, but at the time of the trade NYR weren't in the mix. Is that incorrect?

Vince wrote an article after the trade that Buch, Strome, picks, and prospects were all on the table in some configuration or another.

Frankly reading between the lines and knowing the value of those pieces we made available versus what Buffalo eventually accepted, I conclude that Buffalo accepted a lesser deal just to send him out west and that they had no interest in working with us.

In the context of "Do the Rangers have the assets to go make a big splash to acquire an asset-expensive center in trade?" the answer is yes.

We probably don't have much more to spend after that without resetting the farm system a bit, given that I do not want to empty the tank again like we did from 2012-16, but I think we have enough for one swing. It should be for a young ELC center who can grow with Kakko and Lafreniere and Kravtsov and Chytil.