Euro: R16: England v Germany, 6/29/2021

[NyQuil]

He should’ve left in 2014, there is desperate need for something, anything different, but the fact is that the last 3 years for Germany were likely to be much more difficult, with less impressive results than the decade preceding them, no matter who was in charge.

Hummels, Kroos and to a lesser extent Mueller shouldn't be on the pitch anymore.

There's a reason why World Cup winners are eliminated in the group stage of the next World Cup.

 

[NyQuil]

Germany these days is definetely a second tier team. Will they be able to rebuild and become a force to be reckoned with or is this low ebb going to last a long time? Will be interesting to see. Löw clearly overstayed his welcome.

I'm not overly concerned.

They had a terrible track record going into the tournament and still managed to get out of the toughest group while sitting a few of their more creative players.

Typically the large football nations don't sit on the shelf for long. You can look at the junior tournament results to see the quality of the players that are still coming up.

 

[koyvoo]

Hummels, Kroos and to a lesser extent Mueller shouldn't be on the pitch anymore.

There's a reason why World Cup winners are eliminated in the group stage of the next World Cup.

Sure, but are the players who would replace them at the level that they were when they were World Cup winners?

Sometimes it’s ok to say “it’s not our time” or “we’re not at our best, we’re in a transitional period” or something.

As i mentioned elsewhere, if you read comments here from just about every team that’s been eliminated, they’d all have you believe that only their coach, and nothing other than the coach, kept them from a long run, or even winning the tournament.

 

[cgf]

Well, I do agree with @cgf that it will be at least fresh. The cycle was far too long, and considering tournament progression, he shouldn’t left after they won.

But you’re right too, in that Germany just came off a super high level of a generation, who some have left and other are past their best. They were an A+ quality side for years, and if you drop down to a B+ level, the difference eólio be shown in the results.

He should’ve left in 2014, there is desperate need for something, anything different, but the fact is that the last 3 years for Germany were likely to be much more difficult, with less impressive results than the decade preceding them, no matter who was in charge.

Our youth teams were an issue for a bit and that's why the depth is what it is now, but we're mostly through that transition and we're producing high caliber talents again.

CB is the only spot where we've really fallen off without any clear top talents clamoring to start for the NT...but even that would look like a lot less of a problem if Süle or Tah "got right" this season.

 

[All Mod Cons]

England did the same.

They sat all of their creative players (until Grealish was subbed on) and scored on their two opportunities.

Dominated? Please.

Don't be sour man. England won. Germany played right into their hands. The one chance - Muller, that was it. Southgate's substitutions proved to be exactly what the game needed at exactly the right time.

Germany looked timid and out of ideas.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Nice to shut the anti-English up, if only for 3 days.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Of course, Germany will come back. Its 80+ million people in a football crazy country where the national team takes strong precedence over club football. The successes of the last 70 years weren't a random coincidence. It's only a matter of whether we're talking 4-6 years or 8-10 years. I was actually thinking earlier that 5 years is a long time in international football. France went from looking pretty hapless in 92/93 (brutal Euro, losses to Bulgaria, Israel in WCQ) to being a contender in 96 and a winner in 98. The fact Germany seems to have more or less stagnated since 2016 at least shows how foolish it was to stick with Löw. Sure, he changed players and formations, but overall approach has remained 100% the same. Team and federation need a reboot. Bierhoff and several DFB board members should follow Löw out the door.

 

[cgf]

Sure, but are the players who would replace them at the level that they were when they were World Cup winners?

Sometimes it’s ok to say “it’s not our time” or “we’re not at our best, we’re in a transitional period” or something.

As i mentioned elsewhere, if you read comments here from just about every team that’s been eliminated, they’d all have you believe that only their coach, and nothing other than the coach, kept them from a long run, or even winning the tournament.

Eh. Goretzka/Gundogan both start over Khedira/Kramer; Kimmich starts over Schweinsteiger; Gosens starts over Howedes; and Havertz starts up front. 2014-Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, & Lahm are locks, as are Mesut & 2014-Müller.

And we'll see what the future holds for the likes of Baku, Wirtz, Musiala, Moukoko, Adeyemi, Netz, Rhein, Stiller, Bella Kotchap, Dardai, Arrey-Mbi, etc.

 

[koyvoo]

Our youth teams were an issue for a bit and that's why the depth is what it is now, but we're mostly through that transition and we're producing high caliber talents again.

CB is the only spot where we've really fallen off without any clear top talents clamoring to start for the NT...but even that would look like a lot less of a problem if Süle or Tah "got right" this season.

I just think that currently, when we look back at the last 3 years, including the World Cup, Germany doesn’t have the quality, or depth of quality they had in the decade that were were a lock fit a tournament semifinal, minimum.

Ok, so there’s obviously something more, they didn’t drop off to garbage, just that the level they reached was super high, and not sustainable without at least dips and valleys along the way. They should’ve get eliminated in a group stage l, like in 2018. They shouldn’t lose a qualifier at home to to North Macedonia, so again, there is a deeper problem, and that obviously is a stake and out of touch manager.

I’m just saying he alone is not the only reason Germany is not what they were when they were virtually untouchable.

 

[NyQuil]

Don't be sour man. England won. Germany played right into their hands. The one chance - Muller, that was it. Southgate's substitutions proved to be exactly what the game needed at exactly the right time.

Germany looked timid and out of ideas.

I agree that England won and deservedly so.

You and I have different definitions of dominating apparently.

When England doesn’t touch the ball for the first 15 minutes, it’s hard to characterize as domination.

I was disappointed at how passive Germany was, particularly in the second half, but again, dominated? lol.

 

[Savant]

 

[cgf]

I just think that currently, when we look back at the last 3 years, including the World Cup, Germany doesn’t have the quality, or depth of quality they had in the decade that were were a lock fit a tournament semifinal, minimum.

Ok, so there’s obviously something more, they didn’t drop off to garbage, just that the level they reached was super high, and not sustainable without at least dips and valleys along the way. They should’ve get eliminated in a group stage l, like in 2018. They shouldn’t lose a qualifier at home to to North Macedonia, so again, there is a deeper problem, and that obviously is a stake and out of touch manager.

I’m just saying he alone is not the only reason Germany is not what they were when they were virtually untouchable.

Part of that is the way Jogi botched the transition and how resistant he has been to introduce young players just because there was already a vet he trusted. Like Baku not getting integrated because Jogi was cool with Kroos starting in Kimmich's spot & Joshua being stuck on the right. Sane never getting the confidence from Jogi that he did from Pep.

And part of that is on our youth development with the late 90s age-groups...the 96ers & 2000ers having disappointed, while the 97-99 age groups were known to be weak at the time; with some exceptions like Kai & Baku...but that has already started changing again *shrug*

 

[koyvoo]

Part of that is the way Jogi botched the transition and how resistant he has been to introduce young players just because there was already a vet he trusted. Like Baku not getting integrated because Jogi was cool with Kroos starting in Kimmich's spot. Sane never getting the confidence from Jogi that he did from Pep.

And part of that is on our youth development with the late 90s age-groups...the 96ers & 2000ers having disappointed, while the 97-99 age groups were known to be weak at the time; with some exceptions like Kai & Baku...but that has already started changing again *shrug*

It seems to me that you’re expectations are semifinals finals, every tournament, for eternity.

Nothing wrong with aiming for everything, and certainly that is what Germany should build, but that’s unsustainable and unrealistic. Especially with everyone else continuing to close the gap on the giants, B level teams more and more being able to pull off upsets. I just think that there will be many more transitional periods that will come over the years, where you will blame the coach.

 

[al secord]

I apologize Southgate. It truly is coming home.

 

[bluesfan94]

Don't be sour man. England won. Germany played right into their hands. The one chance - Muller, that was it. Southgate's substitutions proved to be exactly what the game needed at exactly the right time.

Werner had one, too. Meanwhile, I'd say England had one other chance other than the two goals and that was solely down to a horrendous back pass by Germany.

 

[al secord]

When you get outworked and outplayed by this england lineup. Yup. Piss off.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It seems to me that you’re expectations are semifinals finals, every tournament, for eternity.

Nothing wrong with aiming for everything, and certainly that is what Germany should build, but that’s unsustainable and unrealistic. Especially with everyone else continuing to close the gap on the giants, B level teams more and more being able to pull off upsets. I just think that there will be many more transitional periods that will come over the years, where you will blame the coach.

Expectation in a "transitional" year should be to beat who you should beat, give a good account of yourselves in the 50-50 matches. Didn't match that in 2018, arguably didn't in 2020 either (didn't beat Hungary, if they had, they wouldn't have played England in this match).

 

[bluesfan94]

xG England Germany Euro 2021 Round of 16 | Wembley attendance 41,973 & Expected Goals Shots Map Match Stats

According to this, the xG was 1.31-1.28 England. That sounds about right

 

[al secord]

Nice to shut the anti-English up, if only for 3 days.

Glorious. Especially around these parts.

 

[cgf]

It seems to me that you’re expectations are semifinals finals, every tournament, for eternity.

Nothing wrong with aiming for everything, and certainly that is what Germany should build, but that’s unsustainable and unrealistic. Especially with everyone else continuing to close the gap on the giants, B level teams more and more being able to pull off upsets. I just think that there will be many more transitional periods that will come over the years, where you will blame the coach.

My expectations depend on the talent level. I just see a s*** of talent with a good foundation to play the kind of football Flick has shown an aptitude for encouraging...as long as we can get just 1 higher end CB out of Süle / Tah / Torunarigha / Bella Kotchap / Arrey-Mbi / Dardai / etc.:

Gnabry/Werner*
Musiala/Wirtz - Havertz
Gosens - Kimmich - Goretzka - Baku
Uduokhai - ___ - Klostermann
ter Stegen

*Moukoko / Adeyemi
​

Yeah, that's a team I expect to contend under Flick, even if it's starting Hummels again next summer because we have to wait for one of the teenagers to anchor the defense.

 

[koyvoo]

Expectation in a "transitional" year should be to beat who you should beat, give a good account of yourselves in the 50-50 matches. Didn't match that in 2018, arguably didn't in 2020 either (didn't beat Hungary, if they had, they wouldn't have played England in this match).

Agreed. That’s why I’ve made it clear that there’s a bigger problem than just a transitional period, but my main point is the the reason Germany are not currently consistent semifinalists or better like they were for a decade, is not only the coach and nothing other than the coach.

 

[NyQuil]

Agreed. That’s why I’ve made it clear that there’s a bigger problem than just a transitional period, but my main point is the the reason Germany are not currently consistent semifinalists or better like they were for a decade, is not only the coach and nothing other than the coach.

What is frustrating is that it would be easier to tell if it weren't for some of Low's decisions.

 

[cgf]

Werner had one, too. Meanwhile, I'd say England had one other chance other than the two goals and that was solely down to a horrendous back pass by Germany.

Müller, Werner, Havertz. Any of those 3 could've easily gone in without anything changing...and who knows what would've happened if we had brought Musiala & Gnabry on for Müller & Werner early in the 2nd half.

Props to England for their win, but if anyone thinks this was domination...then it really has been a long time since they've watched a good team...

 

[al secord]

Outside of Sterling's mistake, how can you shit on Southgate after that?

 

[cgf]

Agreed. That’s why I’ve made it clear that there’s a bigger problem than just a transitional period, but my main point is the the reason Germany are not currently consistent semifinalists or better like they were for a decade, is not only the coach and nothing other than the coach.

It's not just the coach. It's also the roster he selected and the down years for our youth programs...which we are now on the far side of...