Phoenix CXXXI: Looking for the Barroway Necessities

[PatrikOverAuston]

Ya, absolutely Sam.... this is indeed the BOH and while Payroll, Mgmnt & Development etc, Winning & Losing tangentially relevant lets just reel it in a bit here guys. This conversation entered the realm of NHL General's or the Coyotes Team Page several posts back. For those wishing to discuss Mgmnt & performance, take it to the aforementioned please & thank you.

Speaking of balance sheets and bonds though Killion you have to appreciate the barrels 'o viper oil that have snaked through Glendale the last two decades... enough to be its own slice of the local GDP I bet. Clarke Stanley would be proud... endless train of "medicine" men pushing only the finest liniments... hambones and hustlers all of them.

Only Stanley never could have dreamed of having a profiteer pimp master like G. Bettman behind him to keep the wagons moving. Disgraceful yet artful... if you can get past the throwing up that is.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Ya, absolutely Sam.... this is indeed the BOH and while Payroll, Mgmnt & Development etc, Winning & Losing tangentially relevant lets just reel it in a bit here guys. This conversation entered the realm of NHL General's or the Coyotes Team Page several posts back. For those wishing to discuss Mgmnt & performance, take it to the aforementioned please & thank you.

No offense, but there have been many off topic posts about this team in these megathreads that don't relate to the financial state of the team and viability in Arizona. Just saying.

 

[mesamonster]

Ya, absolutely Sam.... this is indeed the BOH and while Payroll, Mgmnt & Development etc, Winning & Losing tangentially relevant lets just reel it in a bit here guys. This conversation entered the realm of NHL General's or the Coyotes Team Page several posts back. For those wishing to discuss Mgmnt & performance, take it to the aforementioned please & thank you.

The narrative of the product does directly relate to the business end of this discussion. The absolute ineptitude of management from Barroway to Chayka will have an impact on the bottom line and will ultimately determine how and when the league determines what to DC on with it.

The present management is nothing more than a reincarnation of past failed ownership groups. Seems they all have one thing in common: none of them have had the money or the experience to be in this business in the first place. The resulting failures are all too predictable, AB is just the latest, however his leverage levels leave him a full cut below the others, he has no wiggle room, and the on ice woes are not helping him.

 

[TheLegend]

There's a reason why the Oilers being "visually better" became a meme in Edmonton during the never-ending rebuild- it's horse****. Everyone knew it was horse**** the moment then-GM Craig MacTavish said it. Everyone knows it's horse**** today.

Why? Because nobody cares how a team "looks". What matters is how many games they win. Full stop. This isn't a hockey discussion anyway, it's business, but Chayka is no better than his predecessors and that's all there is to it.

I'm sorry you and your fellow fans were conned by yet another overpromise-underwhelm type, but that's the short of it and everyone can see it.

Nobody here was extolling Chayka’s virtues as a GM but thank you anyway.

There hasn’t been any real hype generated about this team except from fans who had overestimated their expectations. They (as far back as Don Maloney) have said they wanted to build for long term success and that’s difficult to do when you’re on a budget and a revolving door ownership. It has to come from within and the Coyotes didn’t have a luxury of four #1 overall picks the last decade (two who were considered “generational”) to work with either.

But I digress.....

Personally I see a better team with more future potential on the ice now than a year ago. It’s the second youngest roster in the league. As long as they continue to improve I’m patient enough to wait.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Nobody here was extolling Chayka’s virtues as a GM but thank you anyway.

"Here" as in BOH, or HF? If the first, well no doubt, as it's a business forum. But the whole board? Really? Never? Not once?

There hasn’t been any real hype generated about this team except from fans who had overestimated their expectations.

So, like, most of them that have accounts at HFBoards.

They (as far back as Don Maloney) have said they wanted to build for long term success and that’s difficult to do when you’re on a budget and a revolving door ownership.

...and even more difficult when you trade high picks for middling centers, but there I digress.

It has to come from within and the Coyotes didn’t have a luxury of four #1 overall picks the last decade (two who were considered “generational”) to work with either.

They could've. That they chose not to burn it down is not a point in their favor.

Personally I see a better team with more future potential on the ice now than a year ago. It’s the second youngest roster in the league. As long as they continue to improve I’m patient enough to wait.

Ah, that good 'ole "future potential". Second only to "visually better" in terms of what good it really is.

 

[mesamonster]

Nobody here was extolling Chayka’s virtues as a GM but thank you anyway.

There hasn’t been any real hype generated about this team except from fans who had overestimated their expectations. They (as far back as Don Maloney) have said they wanted to build for long term success and that’s difficult to do when you’re on a budget and a revolving door ownership. It has to come from within and the Coyotes didn’t have a luxury of four #1 overall picks the last decade (two who were considered “generational”) to work with either.

But I digress.....

Personally I see a better team with more future potential on the ice now than a year ago. It’s the second youngest roster in the league. As long as they continue to improve I’m patient enough to wait.

Legend, I am not trying to kill your pride in the team and your hope. I am simply trying to point out that perhaps this team has more future promise than a year ago, but when viewed in relationship to the rest of the conference and the league they have not progressed. The league as a whole continues to improve so whatever gains they have made still leaves them in the cellar. If they are still playing next year in Glendale I just don't see where their real upside is without management going all in and spending to to the cap. Doing so would add 2-3 quality players and in this league that can be the difference between making the playoffs and being out of them for six years. Chayka is neither smart enough or proven to show that he can ice a team better than his peers while spending 20% less. Just a fact!

 

[Dirty Old Man]

You gotta understand, mesa just *really* *really* doesn't like anyone involved with the Coyotes, for his own reasons, and anything he says with respect to the Coyotes
*has to*
*has to*
*has to*
be taken with that in mind. Is it accurate? Oftentimes not, even usually not. Is it annoying? Often. But once you get that mindset, it is easier to just be like Frozen and Let It Go.

I engage him sometimes when maybe I shouldn't, like perhaps this morning , but now it's more Bill O'Reilly vs Jon Stewart than genuine dislike.

 

[mesamonster]

You gotta understand, mesa just *really* *really* doesn't like anyone involved with the Coyotes, for his own reasons, and anything he says with respect to the Coyotes
*has to*
*has to*
*has to*
be taken with that in mind. Is it accurate? Oftentimes not, even usually not. Is it annoying? Often. But once you get that mindset, it is easier to just be like Frozen and Let It Go.

I engage him sometimes when maybe I shouldn't, like perhaps this morning , but now it's more Bill O'Reilly vs Jon Stewart than genuine dislike.

My DOM, pretty nasty! Regardless, let me defend myself. Most importantly, I don't hate everyone that is involved with the Coyotes. I have no disdain for any 9f the players, staff etc. My disdain is with Andy Barroway and absolutely nobody else. His reticence to spend on his team and expectations of public subsidies all in the name of lining his own pockets is why I rail against him. I honestly do not believe he has the best interests of fans. His ownership is a narcissistic expression of his own dysfunctional personality. My other villain is GB, and all of his underhanded dealings with the COG!

Why would I not like the players, the staff etc? They have all been put in the unenviable position of having to play for AB and have had to put up with his Wirtz like pernicious ways. Consider them pawns in AB'S scheme. So please stop with the generalizations that I hate everybody associated with the team, I don't. If I speak of the lack of talent that is not an affront on the players, it is a comment that refers more to AB"S reluctance to give the fans a competitive team.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Nobody here was extolling Chayka’s virtues as a GM but thank you anyway.

I will. Hell, Chayka is the only piece of the management puzzle that I think is a bright spot on this team. Roster-wise, Chayka's been brutally raked over the coals with the benefit of hindsight, but in the moment that his moves happened he was rightfully praised for the way he put his team together. The biggest misstep he has made was hiring Tocchet, IMO. But speaking as one who HATED the Chayka hire when it happened, I think he's done a great job with what few resources he has.

 

[Killion]

I will. Hell, Chayka is the only piece of the management puzzle that I think is a bright spot on this team. Roster-wise, Chayka's been brutally raked over the coals with the benefit of hindsight, but in the moment that his moves happened he was rightfully praised for the way he put his team together. The biggest misstep he has made was hiring Tocchet, IMO. But speaking as one who HATED the Chayka hire when it happened, I think he's done a great job with what few resources he has.

Honestly I dont know that it would matter even if you'd manipulated the space-time continuum & employed a peak Sam Pollock & Scotty Bowman to Manage & Coach the Coyotes given the uncertainty thats been swirling around this franchise since 2008.... amp'd up considerably over the past decade, no real stability & seemingly no end in sight resulting in what is effectively a double achilles heel. That they managed to make it to WC Finals a few years ago was nothing short of a miracle, one of the greatest stories of grit, focus, discipline & resiliency, fight & effort in the history of the game given everything that was going on off the ice.

Beyond the Win/Loss columns, playoff bound or not (and sadly, appears not) & how thats effecting the gate & everything else from corporate to broadcast, merchandising sales etc, I dont really get into the minutiae of Management & Coaching, player personnel, and we dont encourage its discussion here as there are appropriate forums elsewhere to do so if one is so inclined. Bottom line; Chayka isnt an idiot, Tocchets a dyed in the wool hockey guy, their doing the best that they can as are the players and doing so under very difficult, frankly almost impossible circumstances on a number of levels. The buck starts & stops with ownership. They all including Barroway get an 'A' for Effort but until such time as the situation stabilized just not on.....

As for your criticism of Tocchet.... thats like blaming the goalie who stands on his head stopping 73 of 74 shots & you lose 1-0, and the shot that did get buy him the result of a momentary total team breakdown, every player on the ice making a mistake, the guy had no chance but as he was the last line of defense; the Goat. Tocchet was a total Warrior as a player, has some serious hockey IQ, but c'mon here. Serious over-reach going down with this whole situation to be expecting a whole lot of the club huh? You could see this coming a mile away, from out of the pits, the Coyotes a semi souped up Hyundai & their supposed to keep pace with the likes of a Team Penske's & Dallara/Chevrolet? Of course their going to get lapped and at that barely hanging on by their teeth. All they can do to keep the wheels on, not hit the wall. They are out there to simply finish the race. Almost like Eddie the Eagle or whatever. No way to run a franchise.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

As for your criticism of Tocchet.... thats like blaming the goalie who stands on his head stopping 73 of 74 shots & you lose 1-0, and the shot that did get buy him the result of a momentary total team breakdown, every player on the ice making a mistake, the guy had no chance but as he was the last line of defense; the Goat. Tocchet was a total Warrior as a player, has some serious hockey IQ, but c'mon here.

Look - Tocchet as a player vs. Tocchet as a coach are two very distinct topics. Chayka got seduced by Tocchet's PowerPoint presentation and that's why I call it a misstep to hire him. A more experienced GM with a better-honed eye test to complement the spreadsheets would have looked at Tocchet's record and the context of his performance in Pittsburgh and factored it into the decision to hire. I can see why Chayka picked Tocchet - former Coyote (marketing!), detailed plan of attack (no micromanaging!), and probably the most affordable of the candidates (budget!) - but I honestly didn't, and still don't, like the hire because Tocchet's record as a coach has been underwhelming, to say the least.

The bottom line for me is that Chayka is trying to build the Burj Dubai from a set of Japanese origami papers. "Being creative" with the budget he has is a titanic understatement for what he's had to do. I do think he's got a weakness, in that he's got a touch of EHM-itis (his moves all look great on paper but, occasionally, disregard the human element a bit). But I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[mesamonster]

Look - Tocchet as a player vs. Tocchet as a coach are two very distinct topics. Chayka got seduced by Tocchet's PowerPoint presentation and that's why I call it a misstep to hire him. A more experienced GM with a better-honed eye test to complement the spreadsheets would have looked at Tocchet's record and the context of his performance in Pittsburgh and factored it into the decision to hire. I can see why Chayka picked Tocchet - former Coyote (marketing!), detailed plan of attack (no micromanaging!), and probably the most affordable of the candidates (budget!) - but I honestly didn't, and still don't, like the hire because Tocchet's record as a coach has been underwhelming, to say the least.

The bottom line for me is that Chayka is trying to build the Burj Dubai from a set of Japanese origami papers. "Being creative" with the budget he has is a titanic understatement for what he's had to do. I do think he's got a weakness, in that he's got a touch of EHM-itis (his moves all look great on paper but, occasionally, disregard the human element a bit). But I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

No doubt Tocchet is in a tough situation, like you Feck, I believe they fell for the pedigree without looking under the hood. Good hockey guy, good assistant but my understanding is he lacks many of the organizational skills necessary today to be a good coach. Of course if he had Tampas lineup we would`t be having this discussion about his coaching chops!

 

[Killion]

... good assistant but my understanding is he lacks many of the organizational skills necessary today to be a good coach.

Takes some serious "organizational skills" to make & keep book mesa. Ha?.... you just leave off a Ricky.... tell him to hunt you down at GRA.... "look for the guy in the Vikings or Wild shirt, hat".... beat with you with your own shoe... ya hear me?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Of course if he had Tampas lineup we would`t be having this discussion about his coaching chops!

He did have Tampa's lineup, and what he did with it - and what happened after he was let go - is the big reason why I didn't want him hired in Arizona...

It's all a moot point, though, because Barroway can't afford to pay to fire Tocchet even if he wanted to. He's already paying Tippett his severance and those would be real dollars he'd have to cough up.

 

[TheLegend]

"My understanding"

That's another good term. There's one other person I know you uses that term often when he wants to espouse something.

That implies someone THINKS they know something, when in reality it's not much more than an educated guess.

Sorry mesa..... you can't kill "pride" with supposition and narratives. I stopped worrying about what happens to the Coyotes from the point if they stay in Arizona or not a very long time ago. That's something none of us have control over. I just don't waste my time looking for every miniscule thing that's wrong. There's plenty of others who can do that.

 

[mesamonster]

"My understanding"

That's another good term. There's one other person I know you uses that term often when he wants to espouse something.

That implies someone THINKS they know something, when in reality it's not much more than an educated guess.

Sorry mesa..... you can't kill "pride" with supposition and narratives. I stopped worrying about what happens to the Coyotes from the point if they stay in Arizona or not a very long time ago. That's something none of us have control over. I just don't waste my time looking for every miniscule thing that's wrong. There's plenty of others who can do that.

Sorry TL, but on this one you are wrong! Why do you think he used all of DT`s systems, schedules and notes when he arrived? The very reason why his head coaching career has been a bust! The HC is responsible for all of the organizational details, did`t have that skill in TB and has yet to learn it in Az. Could also be why he makes a good assistant as opposed to an HC! Then again, I guess his less than spectacular showing in Az. should be enough to tell you that has lots to learn.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Sorry TL, but on this one you are wrong! Why do you think he used all of DT`s systems, schedules and notes when he arrived? The very reason why his head coaching career has been a bust! The HC is responsible for all of the organizational details, did`t have that skill in TB and has yet to learn it in Az. Could also be why he makes a good assistant as opposed to an HC! Then again, I guess his less than spectacular showing in Az. should be enough to tell you that has lots to learn.

uh, what? you're forgetting Tucson jettisoned their coaching staff, mesa, and doesn't Barroway own them?

 

[mesamonster]

uh, what? you're forgetting Tucson jettisoned their coaching staff, mesa, and doesn't Barroway own them?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

What does that have to do with anything?

Arizona and Tucson are essentially connected, mesa..... how can you teach prospects then the organizational philosophy?

 

[mesamonster]

Arizona and Tucson are essentially connected, mesa..... how can you teach prospects then the organizational philosophy?

Not sure I follow your thought process, so the Coyotes have a farm team in Tucson, what does that have to do with the issues they are experiencing at the major league level?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not sure I follow your thought process, so the Coyotes have a farm team in Tucson, what does that have to do with the issues they are experiencing at the major league level?

apparently, you have to start watching them, mesa, since you LOVE the Coyotes

 

[mesamonster]

apparently, you have to start watching them, mesa, since you LOVE the Coyotes

No Hutch, you apparently have completely missed my message. I watch just about every Coyotes game, I like the team, I like the players, though I think both are in need of a huge talent infusion. I think Tocchet is in over his head, and I can`t stand AB! Is that enough for you?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

No Hutch, you apparently have completely missed my message. I watch just about every Coyotes game, I like the team, I like the players, though I think both are in need of a huge talent infusion. I think Tocchet is in over his head, and I can`t stand AB! Is that enough for you?

yea, right, but never buying that because it's an EXCUSE, YOU CLAIM to be a Coyotes fan, mesa, to me that's the entire organization, not just Arizona because where/what exactly is the organizational philosophy when it changes every other year to 18 months, sounds to me like an organization/fan disconnect, that infiltrates the entire organization and you have forgotten, we suffered for 4 years under that same disconnection

 

[mesamonster]

yea, right, but never buying that because it's an EXCUSE, YOU CLAIM to be a Coyotes fan, mesa, to me that's the entire organization, not just Arizona because where/what exactly is the organizational philosophy when it changes every other year to 18 months, sounds to me like an organization/fan disconnect, that infiltrates the entire organization and you have forgotten, we suffered for 4 years under that same disconnection

Yeah i guess you are right, hard to argue with you when all of your points are so spot on! Anyway Go Yotes!

 

[aqib]

so any talk of anything happening in the next 13 days before the auto-renewal kicks in