Phoenix CXXXI: Looking for the Barroway Necessities

[Killion]

It is my understanding...that the Coyotes are not part of the discussion over the TSRA renovation costs...as they have no money to contribute...

Yet up-page you have a link to an article with Phx City Manager Ed Zuercher (good Irish name that) claiming hockey is part of the equation, consultants report, negotiations.

 

[mesamonster]

It is my understanding...that the Coyotes are not part of the discussion over the TSRA renovation costs...as they have no money to contribute...

If that is the case the only options left are remaining at GRA and accepting their economic fate or hoping the tribe are desperate enough to build an arena for them all in the name of bringing bodies to their casinos 41 nights a year? Hard to believe they would ever recoup their investment of $400MM on so few dates?

 

[Llama19]

Yet up-page you have a link to an article with Phx City Manager Ed Zuercher (good Irish name that) claiming hockey is part of the equation, consultants report, negotiations.

Publicly they have to say that...behind the scenes...when the costs hit the table...the Coyotes are not ante-ing up...

 

[BattleBorn]

If that is the case the only options left are remaining at GRA and accepting their economic fate or hoping the tribe are desperate enough to build an arena for them all in the name of bringing bodies to their casinos 41 nights a year? Hard to believe they would ever recoup their investment of $400MM on so few dates?

A casino company just did the same thing in Las Vegas.

The fourth 13,000+ arena in town, for whatever that's worth.

If they're willing to talk about it, it might just pencil out. Put the parking structure on the other side of the casino and they could probably pay everything off in a few years.

 

[mesamonster]

Yeah weve' seen this movie before, rather troubling but hey, not my tax dollars or team (though I wish them the best).... Think happy thoughts mesa.... where you'll spend your $$$ in the new year.... like mebbe that minty 21' 1941 Chris Craft hard top sedan I saw 4Sale on the net the other day, located on Lake Vermilion MN.... fully restored... stunning.... guy even re-did all the the wiring using period correct fabric covered... Ha?... use your millions, spend your thoughts on that.

Better yet is the new four seat 21ft. Chris Craft Capri, no need for new wiring and she comes with a nice option that enables you to bypass the underwater exhaust function and port it straight pipes out the sides, oh the sound of thunder!

 

[Killion]

Publicly they have to say that...behind the scenes...when the costs hit the table...the Coyotes are not ante-ing up...

I'm not seeing a deal here that includes the Coyotes so why then would Kuercher perpetuate this fiction? Do the Geniuses on the Phx Council including the Mayor actually believe a deal can be had that has Sarver relinquishing revenues to the Coyotes, essentially committing financial Hari Kari out of the goodness of his heart... or that the Coyotes are in any kind of a position to surrender 50% of arena revenues to the Suns & somehow survive?...

And that in believing this, theyve instructed their City Manager to do the impossible, negotiate a deal of a renovated dual purpose TSRA & thats that?... If thats the case, then it would explain why Kuercher is asking for another $125K & a year. Delay tactics. Kick it down the road. This isnt real, politicized. They need to smarten up & fast, get real because if they keep this up they lose all leverage with Sarver & could in fact wind up with no team at all. Sheer stupidity to task a City Manager with such a Moon Shot if thats whats really going on. Impossible. That model wont work. A fool could see that for Gods sake. Not unless were talking major huge public subsidies for both teams & I mean in perpetuity. And thats not gonna fly.

... and ya, Capri's a nice model too mesa.... see you got the mechanicals all figured... me, I'm a Shepherd Boat guy.... much better in big water than Chris Crafts....

 

[Bondurant]

@Glacial There were two major reasons why there wasn’t calls for relocation during the dark days of the “Dollar Bill” Wirtz regime:

1. The fans stayed away in droves because of contemptible ownership (You can’t have TV blackouts of home games and then turn around and complain when the fans don’t show up). You know that the team suffered major mismanagement when the fans booed the moment of silence for Dollar Bill after his death.
2. During the later part of the Dollar Bill regime, a major portion of the hockey fans in Chicago transfered their allegiance and money to the Chicago Wolves, a minor league team which by the way televised all their games. Both the knowledgeable hockey fans and NHL officials therefore came to the conclusion that it was Dollar Bill, not the fans or market that was the problem.

As for the Coyotes, due to massive mismanagement starting from the moment they arrived on the part of both the legitimate owners and NHL, the team needs to move in order to give the market time to reset and heal. Reading between the lines from the recent Houston talks, the NHL plan is to wait until Barroway runs out of money and then flip the team to Houston which in turn will allow the league to expand to Seattle with no alignment complications.

Lived in Chicagoland for a decade. Was there when Wurtz died. It was like OBL getting killed. Dollar Bill's was celebrated by sports radio callers. The host of one show I was listening to expressed his discomfort as to the nature of many calls. Wurtz was despised.

Also went to a Wolves game. NHL type atmosphere at that time.

 

[Llama19]

I'm not seeing a deal here that includes the Coyotes so why then would Kuercher perpetuate this fiction? Do the Geniuses on the Phx Council including the Mayor actually believe a deal can be had that has Sarver relinquishing revenues to the Coyotes, essentially committing financial Hari Kari out of the goodness of his heart... or that the Coyotes are in any kind of a position to surrender 50% of arena revenues to the Suns & somehow survive?...

And that in believing this, theyve instructed their City Manager to do the impossible, negotiate a deal of a renovated dual purpose TSRA & thats that?... If thats the case, then it would explain why Kuercher is asking for another $125K & a year. Delay tactics. Kick it down the road. This isnt real, politicized. They need to smarten up & fast, get real because if they keep this up they lose all leverage with Sarver & could in fact wind up with no team at all. Sheer stupidity to task a City Manager with such a Moon Shot if thats whats really going on. Impossible. That model wont work. A fool could see that for Gods sake. Not unless were talking major huge public subsidies for both teams & I mean in perpetuity. And thats not gonna fly.

Zuercher...Beasley 2.0...

 

[Killion]

Zuercher...Beasley 2.0...

Dear Santa,

I've been a good boy this year, yes, you bet.... Please if you can, I'd like another decades supply of popcorn.... like the one you brought me in 2009... because it looks like there might be a very good possibility that were all gonna be here for another decade... through 2028.....

God Bless,
Killion

... oh.... the Orville Redenbacher Extra Buttery or Theater Popcorn..... and some Everclear.... buckets, gallons, barrels... drums of the stuff... fill the garden shed, garage, basement... and cigarettes.... just back back your sled up in the driveway like last time..... much appreciated.

 

[TheLegend]

Nothing makes sense and to make matters worse the PHX City Council seems to be attempting to occupy the same spot the Cog occupied years ago. We all know how that turned out!

Really?

Seems to me the PHXCC is trying to be reasonable in wanting to know the details of everything before they act on it one way or another. They didn’t even have to do this for another 2-3 years because the Suns can’t do anything to get out of TSRA until 2021-22.

This is just more rhetoric to go with that yarn you spun just above this one.

“regime”??? That’s the kind of language a propagandist would use.

 

[zetajerk]

@Glacial There were two major reasons why there wasn’t calls for relocation during the dark days of the “Dollar Bill” Wirtz regime:

1. The fans stayed away in droves because of contemptible ownership (You can’t have TV blackouts of home games and then turn around and complain when the fans don’t show up). You know that the team suffered major mismanagement when the fans booed the moment of silence for Dollar Bill after his death.
2. During the later part of the Dollar Bill regime, a major portion of the hockey fans in Chicago transfered their allegiance and money to the Chicago Wolves, a minor league team which by the way televised all their games. Both the knowledgeable hockey fans and NHL officials therefore came to the conclusion that it was Dollar Bill, not the fans or market that was the problem.

As for the Coyotes, due to massive mismanagement starting from the moment they arrived on the part of both the legitimate owners and NHL, the team needs to move in order to give the market time to reset and heal. Reading between the lines from the recent Houston talks, the NHL plan is to wait until Barroway runs out of money and then flip the team to Houston which in turn will allow the league to expand to Seattle with no alignment complications.

How is that any different from what's happening in Arizona, Florida, or Carolina? I mean, besides the latitude?

"Franchise has bad owner, bad owner manages team poorly, team plays poorly, team stinks for an extended time, the consumers in the market direct their attention elsewhere."

The implication sounds like the fans and market ARE the problem here, which if it wasn't the case in Chicago, then it isn't the case here, or Florida, or Arizona.

 

[Mike Louis]

@zetastrike In Florida’s case the ownership controls the revenue streams that comes from the arena and thus essentially uses the team as a tax write off. As long as the ownership there has that sweetheart lease, the Panthers aren’t going anywhere.

In both Carolina and Arizona the problems stemmed from mismanagement by ownership. If Bettman hadn’t been sleeping on the job, Moyes should’ve been kicked to the curb the moment he threw the keys on Bettman’s desk. Instead he waited until Moyes made his secret deal with Balsillie and entered the Coyotes into bankruptcy proceedings before acting. As an additional side effect of having the league buying the Coyotes out of bankruptcy court, Bettman because of his negligence in not kicking Moyes to the curb sooner was unable to lower the hammer on ASG when it as clear as day that they were sabotaging the market in Atlanta thus resulting in the Thrashers leaving Atlanta.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Say what you want about the City of Phoenix and their thought of renovating. But isn't it fact that a majority of the costs of the renovations would come from the city of phoenix itself, and not the teams? If they could somehow combine the Coyotes, it could somehow invite more voters to approve of it. So why wouldn't they look for that avenue? God forbid that cities are diligent in their studies instead of looking at one quick assessment and agreeing with it.

 

[mesamonster]

Say what you want about the City of Phoenix and their thought of renovating. But isn't it fact that a majority of the costs of the renovations would come from the city of phoenix itself, and not the teams? If they could somehow combine the Coyotes, it could somehow invite more voters to approve of it. So why wouldn't they look for that avenue? God forbid that cities are diligent in their studies instead of looking at one quick assessment and agreeing with it.

And how much will the Coyotes be contributing to the renovation in your scenario? Or, are they given a free pass because of their inability to pay?

 

[TheLegend]

And how much will the Coyotes be contributing to the renovation in your scenario? Or, are they given a free pass because of their inability to pay?

What makes you think they won’t if it comes to that? We don’t even know what the renovation report says. All we have is some hear say evidence right now.

I would certainly hope they do contribute to whatever project they get involved in (even said they should be putting in half for one on their own). But at least I’m holding judgement until I hear more than just one person’s opinion.

 

[Killion]

Say what you want about the City of Phoenix and their thought of renovating. But isn't it fact that a majority of the costs of the renovations would come from the city of phoenix itself, and not the teams? If they could somehow combine the Coyotes, it could somehow invite more voters to approve of it. So why wouldn't they look for that avenue? God forbid that cities are diligent in their studies instead of looking at one quick assessment and agreeing with it.

I dont know that its a majority of the funds, numbers vary but Ive seen $400M tossed around of which at least half is coming from the city, the other half from Sarver & that would be exclusive to a dual purpose facility that would also be home to the Coyotes. So app $400M to satisfy the Suns, costs to reno split 50/50 with the City. I could be wrong, missed something but thats the last I heard about it. Either that or a brand new arena & that projected to cost considerably more, both Sarver & the City agreeing to instead explore the more inexpensive & cost effective option of renovations to TSRA, consultants hired to scope it out.

I was actually somewhat surprised to learn that the consultants mandate included a feasibility study including Im assuming app costs to reconfigure the buildings existing footprint along with adding additional internal infrastructure to make it hockey friendly. Up-page a quote from the Phoenix City Manager who in responding to a question from a Council Member indicating that yes, hockey was to be included in the consultants report. This would of course be much more palatable to the electorate, a shared facility, a politically popular position to be taking as it absolutely makes sense on a whole bunch of levels however....

There are major obstacles to the realization of that ideal & I dont see how they can overcome them, find an agreement that satisfies Sarver, that satisfies the Coyotes with respect to facility management & the control & capture of building revenues. Asking Sarver to surrender 50% of everything from naming rights to non NBA (along with his other teams that currently play out of TSRA) & NHL gate (etc) receipts, splitting concert & event revenues & so on seems to me not only a non-starter for Sarver who already runs a pretty tight ship & needs 100% of those dollars, but so too a non-starter for the Coyotes who like Sarver will need to capture 100% of all of those extraneous non NHL dollars in order to survive.

At loggerheads here. Two competing interests. If the teams were all held under single ownership then sure, there would be light at the end of the tunnel. Given these factors how then does the City of Phoenix satisfy Sarver & the Coyotes? And its at this point that we start getting into the realms of some serious speculation pursuant to the possibility that maybe they do so in providing on-going subsidies to both Sarver & Barroway through the creation of special tax districts & other mechanisms, those proceeds guaranteed & backed by the City of Phoenix with proceeds thereof flowing to the Suns & Coyotes, making up for the loss of the 50% split in concert & event, building sponsorship & naming rights & so on.

And its all circular... this speculation. Youve gone from the politically popular & common sensical "shared facility" that the general public would & likely does at least conceptually & idealistically support, but then tacking on the back end with increased taxation (in perpetuity, or for the life of the building, say another 20yrs) on your entertainment dollar, from game tickets to dining, drinking, parking etc. And if those revenues fall short, the City having to make up the difference from other tax sources & centers. Requires some seriously optimistic off the charts projections of the kind we saw from TL Hocking & others in Glendale not so long ago. And maybe thats why were looking at another year, another $125K for the consultants to craft such a plan, massage the numbers, continue on with some lobbying at the State level to see if they too can ease the costs & burden the City of Phoenix might be contemplating.

So lets imagine all this actually happens. That the Coyotes contribute $100M... the building renovated to be at least partially if not totally hockey friendly... Sarver good to go with the plans & financing, tax program to make up for his shorts in sharing the building while simultaneously topping up the Coyotes.... the City of Phoenix doing it the right way & then holding a Public Referendum to vote on the issues & components of this rather elaborate deal & the public votes "yes"?.... Then fine. So be it. Its not my tax dollars. I'm not going to rail & decry against "the insanity" or whatever. If they vote "no" then that too should be respected. But the public should be given a voice here & their wishes respected. I'm sure Glendale & other interested parties would have much to say about this if this is where things are headed however the City of Phoenix could theoretically go it alone without State sponsorship (Bonding seems out with the Feds tax bill).

Anythings possible awfulwaffle.... What seems most pressing however is the current state of Andrew Barroways financial situation & the continuing losses being absorbed by the club. How does he even manage to hang on for another year, followed by the political & public wrangling that is sure to follow if such a plan hatches, and if approved, hang in out in Glendale through 2021 & reno's, taking up residency maybe in 2022/23, or... does Sarver pull a 180, goes along with all of this, the taxing & funding instituted immediately (2019) with direct subsidies going to both teams, Coyotes moving in & living with the ongoing reno's commencing with the 2019/20 NHL season....

The above about all I can creatively come up with in looking at Phx, TSRA. Who knows huh?

 

[mesamonster]

Watching the Coyotes play the defending SC champs and lose their 23rd of the year and dropping this team beyond the basement. The current discussions about new arena potential has to also include the need for the product to improve. Again, AB and his group have given the real product nothing to work with and in the end the patrons have every right to say, "I am no longer interested" the idea that AB thought he could get away with an inferior product and not suffer at the gate is laughable. Seriously, the on ice issues have to now become an integral part of the financial metrics looking forward. Team revenues and ultimately valuations are going to partly depend upon the relative success of selling this product. Not enough attention has been paid to the product as opposed to the idea of just surviving while looking for a new venue? Time and ineffective play could be the ultimate AB slayer. Upper management has said precious little with regard to their concern for the product, in fact they have said so little one has to wonder if they are actually engaged day to day? The on ice ineptitude is now becoming an issue like it or not!

 

[Dirty Old Man]

You mean the game where they were level with the defending 2 time Stanley Cup champions with 15 seconds left? That game?

 

[mesamonster]

You mean the game where they were level with the defending 2 time Stanley Cup champions with 15 seconds left? That game?

The defending Champs are a shadow of what they were a year ago! The Coyotes have glaring weaknesses throughout the lineup. 23 losses is testament of their ineptitude! You have bought into the idea that winning is secondary to moral victories.

 

[TheLegend]

The defending Champs are a shadow of what they were a year ago! The Coyotes have glaring weaknesses throughout the lineup. 23 losses is testament of their ineptitude! You have bought into the idea that winning is secondary to moral victories.

Actually.... he recognizes the team is trying to rebuild itself internally through the youth it accumulated over the past couple of years and a few selective trades to bring in some veteran experience.

So please stop trying to accuse people of using excuses by perpetuating that baseless “win or you’re nothing but crap” narrative.

 

[mesamonster]

Actually.... he recognizes the team is trying to rebuild itself internally through the youth it accumulated over the past couple of years and a few selective trades to bring in some veteran experience.

So please stop trying to accuse people of using excuses by perpetuating that baseless “win or you’re nothing but crap” narrative.

I don' agree with your assessment of the reason for the rebuild! They have gone young and brought in over valued veterans all in the name of saving money! The rebuild has nothing to do with winning. Should any of the youngsters succeed they will likely do as those before them have done, leave in FA or be traded before the team has to pony up the money. TL, this franchise has little interest in winning their interest lies solely in surviving and ultimately finding an exit strategy.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I don' agree with your assessment of the reason for the rebuild! They have gone young and brought in over valued veterans all in the name of saving money! The rebuild has nothing to do with winning. Should any of the youngsters succeed they will likely do as those before them have done, leave in FA or be traded before the team has to pony up the money. TL, this franchise has little interest in winning their interest lies solely in surviving and ultimately finding an exit strategy.

What drugs are you on, because I'd like some. This rebuild has everything to do with succeeding when they grow up. Look at what we have brought in. Clayton Calder and Chicken, both in the same draft, are key components to our success. We brought in Stepan, who actually is pretty good, but hasn't performed at the level we would have expected. We brought in the hammer, who has been proven, and has shown he's a solid defender. He's been injured a majority of this season. Demers is, well, Demers... Goligoski is, well, Goligoski... Those 2 are head scratchers. Raanta has played well when healthy. And he's probably playing hurt while still being effective. Not every trade or free agency transaction is going to pan out. But for the most part, our recent drafts and trades have been successful. You're looking at the W/L column. Good for you, have you actually watched a freakin game? If you have watched a game, you would understand this team is better than the current point total.

 

[awfulwaffle]

OT mesa, but I'd love to see your reaction to firing Graham and hiring Herm. I bet you're one of those that are upset that Graham was let go, but then again, he was mediocre at best during his tenure. What's your take on that situation there Mr. must win every year?

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

You're looking at the W/L column. Good for you, have you actually watched a freakin game? If you have watched a game, you would understand this team is better than the current point total.

There's a reason why the Oilers being "visually better" became a meme in Edmonton during the never-ending rebuild- it's horse****. Everyone knew it was horse**** the moment then-GM Craig MacTavish said it. Everyone knows it's horse**** today.

Why? Because nobody cares how a team "looks". What matters is how many games they win. Full stop. This isn't a hockey discussion anyway, it's business, but Chayka is no better than his predecessors and that's all there is to it.

I'm sorry you and your fellow fans were conned by yet another overpromise-underwhelm type, but that's the short of it and everyone can see it.

 

[Killion]

Why? Because nobody cares how a team "looks". What matters is how many games they win. Full stop. This isn't a hockey discussion anyway, it's business, but Chayka is no better than his predecessors and that's all there is to it.

Ya, absolutely Sam.... this is indeed the BOH and while Payroll, Mgmnt & Development etc, Winning & Losing tangentially relevant lets just reel it in a bit here guys. This conversation entered the realm of NHL General's or the Coyotes Team Page several posts back. For those wishing to discuss Mgmnt & performance, take it to the aforementioned please & thank you.