Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[MCR74]

says the guy who would vote Karlsson over Bobby freakin ORR

/thread.

 

[KevinRedkey]

The thing is that this argument has seen reality of when Karlsson went to a better team, the Sharks and his scoring didn't increase and most likely it will happen again in Pittsburg.

So which is more convincing the projection theory or what actually happened?

1. San Jose has never scored that many goals
2. Kalrssons best years are when he was healthy.

It's not an entirely crappy argument by any means, but it's c

And several times in this thread it's been presented what ACTUALLY happens when Karlsson plays on a better team.

We don't need these fantasyland games, it's logic to suggest that the % of points will come DOWN when there's a better team around him, and that shows up in his actual #s and play, as well.

I guess if the Sharks weren't a good enough example we'll see what happens with Pittsburgh this year too.

You're lost if you think my argument has anything to do with San Jose being good, but OK. Lol

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

1. San Jose has never scored that many goals
2. Kalrssons best years are when he was healthy.

It's not an entirely crappy argument by any means, but it's c


You're lost if you think my argument has anything to do with San Jose being good, but OK. Lol

So your argument is
IF Karlsson is on a great team and
IF said team isn't a defensive team and scores a lot of goals and
IF Karlsson is perfectly healthy

AND we assume his point percentages don't change going from a crappy team(s) to a playoff team
AND that the other superstars around him won't eat into his production

THEN Karlsson could average 137 points

DESPITE our evidence to the contrary of him ACTUALLY in that situation?

The 'logic' behind your post is the same that sees guys going "well this guy on the third line has a better p/60 than this 1st liner, so let's move him up and watch him be a 100 pt scorer". You can't just extrapolate and pretend the other factors don't exist.

Yes, that's why your post is getting pinata'ed, and if you think everyone that argues with your post is 'lost', that's a 'you' problem, not an 'everyone else' problem. But I can see why you think that way when Karlsson bears no responsibility for anything in his career.

 

[KevinRedkey]

So your argument is
IF Karlsson is on a great team and
IF said team isn't a defensive team and scores a lot of goals and
IF Karlsson is perfectly healthy

AND we assume his point percentages don't change going from a crappy team(s) to a playoff team
AND that the other superstars around him won't eat into his production

THEN Karlsson could average 137 points

DESPITE our evidence to the contrary of him ACTUALLY in that situation?

The 'logic' behind your post is the same that sees guys going "well this guy on the third line has a better p/60 than this 1st liner, so let's move him up and watch him be a 100 pt scorer". You can't just extrapolate and pretend the other factors don't exist.

Yes, that's why your post is getting pinata'ed, and if you think everyone that argues with your post is 'lost', that's a 'you' problem, not an 'everyone else' problem. But I can see why you think that way when Karlsson bears no responsibility for anything in his career.

I stopped reading after you claimed my argument was based on a bunch of stuff I never said. Lol

 

[Strangle]

Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash - comparing the teams where they accomplished those top 5 seasons and it speaks volumes in favour of EK65.

Also you forgot one stat:

NHL assists leader:

Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0

There are several other stats where Karlsson has Coffey beat as well:

The all time Dman leader in point on % of team goals: Karlsson. Only Dman since orr to be top 5 in league points while also leading his team in points: Karlsson. 2nd in the league in 5v5 points (while also being the top 5v5 scorer on his team no less): Karlsson. 2nd in the league in blocked shots: Karlsson.

This is ridiculous. Did karlsson compete with gretzky for NHL assist leader? Lmfao

Coffey and it’s not even close

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I stopped reading after you claimed my argument was based on a bunch of stuff I never said. Lol

These are direct quotes

1. San Jose has never scored that many goals
2. Kalrssons best years are when he was healthy.

Yes - I think last year's version of EK likely would have hit more than 138 points on the Coffey-less Oilers from 1985-86.

What I am suggesting is he would still get more than 138 at the absolute peak of his career on a team with as much firepower as that Oilers team.

Combine that with how effective/efficient EK is offensively and I believe he eclipses 138. You can disagree which is fine.

Unless you have multiple personalities, which of my paraphrases is so far off it invalidates the discussion?

 

[GreatGonzo]

I stopped reading after you claimed my argument was based on a bunch of stuff I never said. Lol

“I’m right, you’re wrong. Because I said so.” That’s literally been your entire argument.

 

[Voight]

Was going to say Ben White must be Karlssons HFB burner account but Kevin8se7en is giving him a run for his money.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Seems like every player vs player argument on this thread is halted by “if this player had better teammates then…”

It’s so boring.

 

[Ben White]

Seems like every player vs player argument on this thread is halted by “if this player had better teammates then…”

It’s so boring.

That’s because their situations are so diametrically different we have to use “what ifs” to some extent, it’s meaningless trying to compare stats vs stats in a vacuum without context.

says the guy who would vote Karlsson over Bobby freakin ORR

Using straw man arguments instead of facts so lame

 

[Ben White]

Weird how Coffey could never reach those point totals on those sharks teams, yet EK would out score Coffey on those Oilers teams…but you want to talk about “logic.”

Hm… someone needs to check up on his understanding of the concept of logic, and it’s not the guy you’re responding to

Weird how a guy 5 feet tall could dunk a basketball if he was 7 feet, and that someone is claiming the 7 feet guy could not dunk if he was the guy who was 5 feet

Would Spud Webb be a more consistent dunker if he was 7.1? Off course he would. Would Shaq be as a good a dunker as Spud Webb if he was 5.7? Probably not but we don’t know. But to argue “look how many dunks Shaq made every game off course he would still dunk a lot being 5.7” didn’t really fly does it? “Look Coffey scored historical numbers when playing with the best players to ever play the game, off course he would still score a lot, at least as much as Karlsson, when playing on arguably the worst NHL roster of the cap era”, I mean you simply don’t know that and it does sound unlikely, and one thing’s for sure, there’s no causal relation between that and the thesis that Karlsson would score as much as Coffey in his situation.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Hm… someone needs to check up on his understanding of the concept of logic, and it’s not the guy you’re responding to

i truly don’t see how you, of all people, can lecture anyone on the concept of logic

News flash: saying EK would eclipse Coffey’s totals if on those Oilers teams(as if that alone is a good argument) all while Coffey wouldn’t sniff 100 points on those sharks teams…that’s not logic.

Feel free to tell me how ridiculous my stance is and how right you are though. You know, the usual.

 

[authentic]

Sometimes it goes the other way too. If you're "the" guy offensively, you get the better and more icetime. The other team might key on you more, but my point is it's not as cut-and-dried as you're saying.

Yeah it’s possible but pretty rare with defensemen. I’m not sure who in history besides Orr and maybe Coffey would do what he did on the 2022-23 Sharks.

Most elite offensive seasons come playing with other elite offensive forwards and I don’t know which defensemen ever did more with less than Karlsson. Then when people say Karlsson only did this because he was allowed to play run and gun hockey with this crappy team imagine him playing run and gun on the Oilers dynasty

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah it’s possible but pretty rare with defensemen. I’m not sure who in history besides Orr and maybe Coffey would do what he did on the 2022-23 Sharks.

Most elite offensive seasons come playing with other elite offensive forwards and I don’t know which defensemen ever did more with less than Karlsson. Then when you people say Karlsson only did this because he was allowed to play run and gun hockey with this crappy team imagine him playing run and gun on the Oilers dynasty.

The same can be said about Coffey. Imagine being the lone guy that gets the puck all the time, doesn’t have to share with other players. Gets little to no defensive responsibilities. Basically the offensive runs through him and him alone. Why wouldn’t Coffey be just as successful? Why is it with EK, we get to suggest greater things for him, yet Coffey can’t get the same treatment? It can go both ways. Coffey is an elite offensive talent, arguably the 2nd best after Orr.

Weird how a guy 5 feet tall could dunk a basketball if he was 7 feet, and that someone is claiming the 7 feet guy could not dunk if he was the guy who was 5 feet

Is this more of that “logic” you were talking about? What is this? Is Coffey the 5 foot guy?

 

[Ben White]

Is this more of that “logic” you were talking about? What is this? Is Coffey the 5 foot guy?

See my extended explanation edited in my previous post

 

[authentic]

The same can be said about Coffey. Imagine being the lone guy that gets the puck all the time, doesn’t have to share with other players. Gets little to no defensive responsibilities. Basically the offensive runs through him and him alone. Why wouldn’t Coffey be just as successful? Why is it with EK, we get to suggest greater things for him, yet Coffey can’t get the same treatment? It can go both ways. Coffey is an elite offensive talent, arguably the 2nd best after Orr.


Is this more of that “logic” you were talking about? What is this? Is Coffey the 5 foot guy?

That’s why I said maybe Coffey. Besides him and Orr no one else could do it if I were to bet.

 

[Ben White]

The same can be said about Coffey. Imagine being the lone guy that gets the puck all the time, doesn’t have to share with other players. Gets little to no defensive responsibilities. Basically the offensive runs through him and him alone. Why wouldn’t Coffey be just as successful? Why is it with EK, we get to suggest greater things for him, yet Coffey can’t get the same treatment? It can go both ways. Coffey is an elite offensive talent, arguably the 2nd best after Orr.

Yes it CAN go both ways, in the sense that it’s not impossible. It’s just that it almost never happened that “other way” in history - Dmen score more when playing with better forwards, doing the opposite would be a huge statistical outlier.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Yes it CAN go both ways, in the sense that it’s not impossible. It’s just that it almost never happened that “other way” in history - Dmen score more when playing with better forwards, doing the opposite would be a huge statistical outlier.

So Karlsson should have more points this season playing with Malkin and Crosby yeah?

 

[Ben White]

i truly don’t see how you, of all people, can lecture anyone on the concept of logic

News flash: saying EK would eclipse Coffey’s totals if on those Oilers teams(as if that alone is a good argument) all while Coffey wouldn’t sniff 100 points on those sharks teams…that’s not logic.

Feel free to tell me how ridiculous my stance is and how right you are though. You know, the usual.

Well first of all I never said any of these things… you’re probably confusing me with another poster or you’re just making things up. Not a good strategy for a meaningful discussion nonetheless.

So Karlsson should have more points this season playing with Malkin and Crosby yeah?

Yes he absolutely SHOULD (based on historical stats and tendencies) but that’s not saying he will. If he plays exactly as good as last season and stays as healthy then he most likely will. But granted he probably played his best offensive hockey ever last season and that he’s getting older it’s very uncertain whether he will play as well and be as healthy.

 

[GreatGonzo]

See my extended explanation edited in my previous post

Yes it CAN go both ways, in the sense that it’s not impossible. It’s just that it almost never happened that “other way” in history - Dmen score more when playing with better forwards, doing the opposite would be a huge statistical outlier.

Anyone would score more with better forwards. But your so big on context and throwing all of it at Coffey, you refuse to see the context for EK..

I really feel like you aren’t appreciating the talent Coffey was. There’s a reason why he’s one of the highest scoring defensemen ever, but you chalk it up as “era, teammates, and health.” Very little do you actually acknowledge Coffey’s abilities.

Well first of all I never said any of these things… you’re probably confusing me with another poster or you’re just making things up. Not a good strategy for a meaningful discussion nonetheless.


Yes he absolutely SHOULD (based on historical stats and tendencies) but that’s not saying he will. If he plays exactly as good as last season and stays as healthy then he most likely will.

Every opinion that hasn’t been yours, you scoff at. You can play dumb but everyone sees right through your bias. Feel free to suggest otherwise, the writing is on the wall.

 

[Ben White]

Anyone would score more with better forwards. But your so big on context and throwing all of it at Coffey, you refuse to see the context for EK..

I really feel like you aren’t appreciating the talent Coffey was. There’s a reason why he’s one of the highest scoring defensemen ever, but you chalk it up as “era, teammates, and health.” Very little do you actually acknowledge Coffey’s abilities.


Every opinion that hasn’t been yours, you scoff at. You can play dumb but everyone sees right through your bias. Feel free to suggest otherwise, the writing is on the wall.

I can’t see what this has to do with anything.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I can’t see what this has to do with anything.

Because you have written off everything he has done and accomplished with “context.” As if he was a product of his time, of his teammates, of his era.

For you Coffey NEEDS context while EK gets the fantasy treatment. It’s very convenient for you.

 

[Ben White]

Anyone would score more with better forwards. But your so big on context and throwing all of it at Coffey, you refuse to see the context for EK..

I really feel like you aren’t appreciating the talent Coffey was. There’s a reason why he’s one of the highest scoring defensemen ever, but you chalk it up as “era, teammates, and health.” Very little do you actually acknowledge Coffey’s abilities.


Every opinion that hasn’t been yours, you scoff at. You can play dumb but everyone sees right through your bias. Feel free to suggest otherwise, the writing is on the wall.

Is it biased to question the narrative that Coffey is a full tier above Karlsson in terms of offensive ability? I’ve yet to solid arguments backing up that claim. Me, and others, have shown in many posts by now that Coffey’s statistical gap over Karlsson isn’t big enough to completely outweigh the much more beneficial situation Coffey had and to confidently put Coffey in another tier than Karlsson offense wise, that’s all there is to it.

 

[KevinRedkey]

These are direct quotes






Unless you have multiple personalities, which of my paraphrases is so far off it invalidates the discussion?

Well for one.. I never said he had to be on a good team. Carolina is a good team. He's not hitting 101+ on that team.

But I'm sure that answer isn't enough for you or anyone else. I've answered a bunch of questions already and none of the ones I asked were answered directly.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Is it biased to question the narrative that Coffey is a full tier above Karlsson in terms of offensive ability? I’ve yet to solid arguments backing up that claim. Me, and others, have shown in many posts by now that Coffey’s statistical gap over Karlsson isn’t big enough to completely outweigh the much more beneficial situation Coffey had and to confidently put Coffey in another tier than Karlsson offense wise, that’s all there is to it.

it’s not really bias considering his numbers, his prime/peak, his career. His overall resume as a whole. If you feel the gap isn’t big enough, then that’s the argument…but again, you bring up Coffey’s “beneficial situation” as a knock against him….yet EKs situation wasn’t beneficial for him to get all those points?

I brought all this up before, same with others. And yet, you write it off every time