Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[toothlessgoon]

Who was better?

Click to read more...

 

[Despote]

Pretty similar but Coffey played with much better teammates in an era where defence wasn't as important as it was during Karlsson's career. So Coffey was probably better for his era than Karlsson was for his and had the better career.

 

[Steven Toast]

Coffey by far.

 

[Ben White]

Coffey by far.

Explain

 

[Felidae]

Here's how they compare.

Karlsson

Award finishes
Norris : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 12, 15, 18
Hart: 5, 8, 9, 9, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 4, 10
PPG: 6


Paul Coffey

Award finishes
Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9
Hart finishes: 4, 4, 10, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
Goals: 7
GPG: 9

Coffey has Karlsson beat in every metric. Better Norris and Hart record, peaked higher and was elite for longer

 

[Ben White]

Here's how they compare.

Karlsson

Award finishes
Norris : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 12, 15, 18
Hart: 5, 8, 9, 9, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 4, 10
PPG: 6


Paul Coffey

Award finishes
Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9
Hart finishes: 4, 4, 10, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
Goals: 7
GPG: 9

Coffey has Karlsson beat in every metric. Better Norris and Hart record, peaked higher and was elite for longer

Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash - comparing the teams where they accomplished those top 5 seasons and it speaks volumes in favour of EK65.

Also you forgot one stat:

NHL assists leader:

Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0

There are several other stats where Karlsson has Coffey beat as well:

The all time Dman leader in point on % of team goals: Karlsson. Only Dman since orr to be top 5 in league points while also leading his team in points: Karlsson. 2nd in the league in 5v5 points (while also being the top 5v5 scorer on his team no less): Karlsson. 2nd in the league in blocked shots: Karlsson.

 

[Felidae]

Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash.

Also you forgot one stat:

NHL assists leader:

Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0

Bolded is incorrect.

It was inevitable people were going to bring up Coffey playing with Lemieux and Gretzky for virtually his entire prime and that's true.

However, in 1994-95 he finished 6th in points and PPG, won the Norris and was almost a Hart finalist. He also led the Detroit red wings in points. He had an 8 point lead over prime Fedorov, who statistically had his 3rd best season of his career (finishing 9th in points). All of this as a 33 year old.

It was half a season, but some evidence nonetheless that Coffey could produce without playing with a superhuman talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.

Also, it's not just the "full" seasons that make Coffey look more impressive. He beats Karlsson in top 10 PPG finishes by a large margin. A stat that is advantageous to players that don't play full seasons.

 

[SillyRabbit]

It's Coffey but it's closer than people think.

Karlsson has always been the primary driver of his team's offense throughout his career, and hasn't gotten to play with anywhere close to the talent that Coffey has.

Karlsson has led his team in scoring five times in his career (only Bourque has done this more times) whereas Coffey only did it once.

On the flip side, Coffey put up absolutely insane offensive performances when playing alongside those elite players. It's clear that while he was aided by them, he was not a product of them. Put other elite defencemen in his spot and they wouldn't be able to replicate his production even with the same elite teammates.

 

[Jericho111091]

So far while close I'd give it to Coffey but we'll have to see how the rest of the backhalf of Karlsson's career goes.

 

[Xspyrit]

Karlsson would have destroyed the 80"s

 

[CanadienShark]

Coffey, unless Karlsson keeps winning Norris trophies.

 

[norrisnick]

Bolded is incorrect.

It was inevitable people were going to bring up Coffey playing with Lemieux and Gretzky for virtually his entire prime and that's true.

However, in 1994-95 he finished 6th in points and PPG, won the Norris and was almost a Hart finalist. He also led the Detroit red wings in points. He had an 8 point lead over prime Fedorov, who statistically had his 3rd best season of his career (finishing 9th in points). All of this as a 33 year old.

It was half a season, but some evidence nonetheless that Coffey could produce without playing with a superhuman talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.

Also, it's not just the "full" seasons that make Coffey look more impressive. He beats Karlsson in top 10 PPG finishes by a large margin. A stat that is advantageous to players that don't play full seasons.

All this, but it's also quite a coincidence that 9 of the top 10 highest scoring seasons of all time had Paul Coffey moving the puck up ice.

If it's one thing Coffey could do, it's facilitate offense. Over the 15 seasons from '81-'82 through '95-'96 Coffey was the 2nd leading scorer in the NHL.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Both of them were fairly weak defensively. But I was surprised by how close the numbers were in terms of goals against:

Player	GP	Non-PK GA	Per game
Karlsson	920​	1,045​	1.14
Coffey	1,409​	1,657​	1.18

Over the course of Coffey's career, he was only on the ice for about 4% more non-PK goals against per game than Karlsson. I didn't think it would have been anywhere near this close, considering Coffey spent half his career in the high-scoring 1980's. (A quick ballpark calculation shows that scoring was about 20% higher during Coffey's career). It's true that Coffey played on stronger teams than Karlsson, but (with a few exceptions) they played run-and-gun hockey, which doesn't help his defensive numbers.

In fairness to Karlsson, the table above shows Coffey's entire career. That includes his final few seasons, where he was clearly past his prime, and playing limited minutes. If we cut him off at age 32 (which means we exclude his very strong Norris winning season in 1995), the numbers look like:

Player	GP	Non-PK GA	Per game
Karlsson	9,20​	1,045​	1.14
Coffey (19-32)	1,033​	1,348​	1.30

Coffey was on the ice for 15% more goals against per game. But he did it in an era that was nearly 30% higher scoring. Karlsson played on teams that were weaker defensively (on a relative basis), but not by a huge margin. (Coffey's teams were vastly better offensively, but we're talking about defense here).

Overall - both of these defensemen are/were below average if we're talking about defense in isolation. But the numbers suggest that Karlsson was probably the weaker of the two. (More generally - you can probably argue that Karlsson's best five regular seasons match up closely to Coffey's best five regular seasons, taking era and quality of teammates into account. But Coffey had a much longer, more consistent prime, and there's absolutely no comparison between their playoff resumes).

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Coffey had the advantage of not having his achilles stomped on by a dirtbag.

 

[Ben White]

Bolded is incorrect.

It was inevitable people were going to bring up Coffey playing with Lemieux and Gretzky for virtually his entire prime and that's true.

However, in 1994-95 he finished 6th in points and PPG, won the Norris and was almost a Hart finalist. He also led the Detroit red wings in points. He had an 8 point lead over prime Fedorov, who statistically had his 3rd best season of his career (finishing 9th in points). All of this as a 33 year old.

It was half a season, but some evidence nonetheless that Coffey could produce without playing with a superhuman talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.

Also, it's not just the "full" seasons that make Coffey look more impressive. He beats Karlsson in top 10 PPG finishes by a large margin. A stat that is advantageous to players that don't play full seasons.

Really weird arguments. First of all it’s not true that players who are injury prone, and therefore plays less full seasons, see a rise in ppg, it’s often the opposite. That has to be looked at from case to case and Karlsson very clearly has a lower ppg in his injury riddled/shortened seasons.

Second, just as I wrote, it’s not that impressive to have more high finishes if you’re not the top dog on your team especially playing behind #99 and #66, yes Coffey has that one shortened season as the top dog but that doesn’t mean jack in the “more finishes” argument.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Coffey for peak, prime, career, playoffs. Absolutely no argument for Karlsson.

 

[Ben White]

Coffey for peak, prime, career, playoffs. Absolutely no argument for Karlsson.

Sure, if you wanna ignore all context. A common decease around here…

 

[Albatros]

Coffey had the better career by a country mile and that although Karlsson hasn't even retired yet, Karlsson is the more skilled hockey player overall though.

 

[ijuka]

Here's how they compare.

Karlsson

Award finishes
Norris : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 12, 15, 18
Hart: 5, 8, 9, 9, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 4, 10
PPG: 6


Paul Coffey

Award finishes
Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9
Hart finishes: 4, 4, 10, 15

Stat finishes
Points: 2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
Goals: 7
GPG: 9

Coffey has Karlsson beat in every metric. Better Norris and Hart record, peaked higher and was elite for longer

Did you take a look at the average team of Karlsson vs. the average team of Coffey?

Take a look at those and report your findings.

Here are a couple of players Coffey played with:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Kurri, Lidström Yzerman, Fedorov

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[bobholly39]

Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash - comparing the teams where they accomplished those top 5 seasons and it speaks volumes in favour of EK65.

Also you forgot one stat:

NHL assists leader:

Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0

There are several other stats where Karlsson has Coffey beat as well:

The all time Dman leader in point on % of team goals: Karlsson. Only Dman since orr to be top 5 in league points while also leading his team in points: Karlsson. 2nd in the league in 5v5 points (while also being the top 5v5 scorer on his team no less): Karlsson. 2nd in the league in blocked shots: Karlsson.

lol - talk about arguing in bad faith...

True Karlsson led the league in assists once and Coffey didn't - but Coffey did finish beyind #2 in league behind peak Gretzky twice - and #3 beyind Gretzky/Lemieux once.

If anything - that's actually advantage Coffey with any amount of context...

 

[bobholly39]

Sure, if you wanna ignore all context. A common decease around here…

No need....

Playoffs - Coffey, obviously. Look at 1985 for peak playoffs, look at his overall body of work. Pretty obvious.

Career - Coffey, obviously. Karlsson is still only 32 and adding I suppose - so maybe we wait and see - but for now, Coffey definitely ahead

Peak - Coffey from 1984 to 1986 scored 126, 121 and 138 points. Also scored 40, 37 and 48 goals. His best season is definitely better than Karlsson's - and his best 3 year stretch Karlsson also doesn't have 3 seasons that quite hold up

Prime - This again is Coffey. Depends what you consider prime to be - both have hits and misses in their primes.

There's no case for Karlsson over Coffey

 

[HockeyWooot]

Karlsson. Stick him with the 80s Oilers and watch the monster numbers roll in.

 

[Felidae]

Really weird arguments. First of all it’s not true that players who are injury prone, and therefore plays less full seasons, see a rise in ppg, it’s often the opposite. That has to be looked at from case to case and Karlsson very clearly has a lower ppg in his injury riddled/shortened seasons.

Second, just as I wrote, it’s not that impressive to have more high finishes if you’re not the top dog on your team especially playing behind #99 and #66, yes Coffey has that one shortened season as the top dog but that doesn’t mean jack in the “more finishes” argument.

Except you're discrediting his point finishes due to the fact he's never been "top dog". So his 1994-95 season as a red wing absolutely does mean something given the fact he lead a team offensively as a defenseman playing with Yzerman and prime Fedorov.

Did you take a look at the average team of Karlsson vs. the average team of Coffey?

Take a look at those and report your findings.

Here are a couple of players Coffey played with:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Kurri, Lidström Yzerman, Fedorov

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I find it interesting that despite being surrounded by HHOF talent and almost never being the best player on his team, he still has a better Hart record than Karlsson and was just short of being a finalist twice.

You'd think all this HHOF talent would take away the votes and not allow him to sniff being a finalist to a trophy that's historically biased against defenseman.

And again, one of those seasons was 1994-95 and its fair to say he was clearly the best player on that team (at least in the regular season). It was arguably a top 3 season in his career.

In general, I always find the teammate arguments overexaggerated, especially for elite players that have shown time and time again that they can produce at elite levels.

We're also talking about a notable gap in how long they were elite for when comparing Coffey and Karlsson.

 

[Toby91ca]

This whole top dog thing makes no sense. Karlsson fans arguing Coffey’s statistical dominance over Karlsson due to Coffey playing with better players but the n make the argument that Karlsson has been too dig more than Coffey….we’ll of course….if he doesn’t play with better players like Coffey doesn’t he have a much better chance to be top dog?

 

[Felidae]

And I didn't think it needed to be said, but unless you're Orr and Howe, no one would be the "top dog" playing with prime Lemieux and Gretzky.