Paul Coffey vs. Erik Karlsson

[wetcoast]

Taking lesser performances in injury riddled seasons is irrelevant to a conversation about peak and/or hypothetical peak performance given different eras.

You seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point.

We are going to agree to disagree as you seem to think that your projections are valid when it's pretty clear that there is a huge underlying problem with them.

 

[Ben White]

Was going to say Ben White must be Karlssons HFB burner account but Kevin8se7en is giving him a run for his money.

 

[Voight]

Glad Coffey is being appreciated more with time.

Still have idiots going with the dumb narrative of "herppp derrrpppp he played with Gretzky and Lemieux I could've put up 100 points playing with them !!1!1!!!"

 

[NyQuil]

Still have idiots going with the dumb narrative of "herppp derrrpppp he played with Gretzky and Lemieux I could've put up 100 points playing with them !!1!1!!!"

He can be better than Karlsson and also be the luckiest player in NHL history.

Coffey managed to play with Gretzky AND Messier AND Kurri AND Lemieux AND Francis AND Gretzky again AND Yzerman AND Fedorov AND Lindros AND Francis again.

There are a ton of guys who went an entire career without playing with the likes of one of those guys, including Karlsson until now.

 

[McFlash97]

Karlsson is a poor man's Coffey.

 

[NyQuil]

Karlsson is a poor man's Coffey.

Karlsson made Coffey's career earnings in two seasons.

Nothing poor about it.

 

[Voight]

He can be better than Karlsson and also be the luckiest player in NHL history.

Coffey managed to play with Gretzky AND Messier AND Kurri AND Lemieux AND Francis AND Gretzky again AND Yzerman AND Fedorov AND Lindros AND Francis again.

There are a ton of guys who went an entire career without playing with the likes of one of those guys, including Karlsson until now.

Of course - my whole point was people like to say the only reason he has 3 Norris' and scored a lot is because of great players.

When infact others in this thread have [pointed out he produced just fine without them.

 

[Bouboumaster]

He isn't right about the made up numbers and faulty projections conclusions from them...glass houses eh?

He's right about the fact that you don't know what unanimous means

 

[apparentlyclueless]

This is a good start in terms of adding some math to the discussion. I'm not totally sold on the adjusted stats from hockey-reference.com, but let's use them as a starting point. Here's a table showing the best five seasons for 25 of the top defensemen from the 1980's to today (plus Bobby Orr):

View attachment 744998

Karlsson ranks third, which is very impressive. Coffey is 14.7% ahead of him. Karlsson is only 4.3% ahead of 4th place (Leetch), 8.2% ahead of 5th place (Bourque), 11.9% ahead of 6th place (MacInnis), and 13.0% ahead of 7th place (Burns). (I just realized I didn't include Denis Potvin, who comes in at 79.0).

This is where the conversation turns to semantics, so I'll bow out. Does 15% qualify as "same tier"? I'll let the linguists debate that. But the size of the gap between Coffey and Karlsson (14.7%) is larger than the gap between Karlsson, Leetch, Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis and Burns. If we argue that Karlsson and Coffey are close, we'd have to conclude that Karlsson and Burns are close, and that doesn't feel right.

(EDIT - we should also consider the context and maybe an argument can be made that, considering team environments, Karlsson's lead over some of those players is more impressive than Coffey's lead over him. But it's still an uphill battle based on a lot of speculation).

Thanks, good stuff here! Based on gut feeling I kind of agreed with the poster ( @Matsun ) who said these three (Orr, Coffey, Karlsson) are all on their own tiers and everybody else comes after. I'd say that's pretty accurate based on this. I guess you could make an argument to put Leetch on Karlsson's tier as well based on these numbers but that's a moot.

I certainly feel like Karlsson would be closer to Coffey than Leetch here but these numbers just show how amazing Coffey truly was. I don't see how this is a detraction from Karlsson (as many of his adamant defenders here seem to think) - just appreciate true greatness. It doesn't take anything away from Karlsson to admit that there have been two guys better than him in league history, while Karlsson could still be put in a tier of his own, just below these two.

 

[wetcoast]

He can be better than Karlsson and also be the luckiest player in NHL history.

Coffey managed to play with Gretzky AND Messier AND Kurri AND Lemieux AND Francis AND Gretzky again AND Yzerman AND Fedorov AND Lindros AND Francis again.

There are a ton of guys who went an entire career without playing with the likes of one of those guys, including Karlsson until now.

Larry Murphy probably had more luck but that's a side point.

Also luck is one thing capitalizing on it is another.

 

[Conbon]

Damn this guy fell off a cliff this year. So... what's the excuse now?

 

[Krigsgaldr]

Damn this guy fell off a cliff this year. So... what's the excuse now?

He’s definitely better than Coffey this season to be fair though….

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Damn this guy fell off a cliff this year. So... what's the excuse now?

Mike Sullivan neutered him.

That said I think he's been great. On pace for 55 points and a +25. And Karlsson-Pettersson have the absolute best even strength metrics in the league of any pairing. If the pens pp wasn't so useless his stats would look nicer.

 

[Ben White]

Damn this guy fell off a cliff this year. So... what's the excuse now?

Do you actually watch the games or just stats watching? He’s actually been really good however still acclimating to his new team and he fundamentally hates to share #1D minutes and deployment with another Dman. He’s playing with less confidence and a much more conservative game than last season. He is getting older but “falling off a cliff” isn’t an accurate description. Wouldn’t be surprised if he bounces back in the offensive number’s column heavily at some point this season.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

People say Coffey is the luckiest defenseman ever, but let’s be real it’s Charlie Huddy

Guy has 5 cups and can’t stand up on skates

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Mike Sullivan neutered him.

That said I think he's been great. On pace for 55 points and a +25. And Karlsson-Pettersson have the absolute best even strength metrics in the league of any pairing. If the pens pp wasn't so useless his stats would look nicer.

Perhaps it could be worded as... Sullivan turned him into a defenseman.

Some might call it "fundamentally hates to share #1D minutes and deployment with another Dman". How on earth that can be validated is certainly a question.

 

[Ben White]

Perhaps it could be worded as... Sullivan turned him into a defenseman.

Some might call it "fundamentally hates to share #1D minutes and deployment with another Dman". How on earth that can be validated is certainly a question.

Well just look at what happened with or without Burns in SJ, and now

 

[wetcoast]

Do you actually watch the games or just stats watching? He’s actually been really good however still acclimating to his new team and he fundamentally hates to share #1D minutes and deployment with another Dman. He’s playing with less confidence and a much more conservative game than last season. He is getting older but “falling off a cliff” isn’t an accurate description. Wouldn’t be surprised if he bounces back in the offensive number’s column heavily at some point this season.

Well I guess Coffey has him beat as he acclimatized right away in good situations right?

 

[Grifter3511]

Mike Sullivan neutered him.

That said I think he's been great. On pace for 55 points and a +25. And Karlsson-Pettersson have the absolute best even strength metrics in the league of any pairing. If the pens pp wasn't so useless his stats would look nicer.

But none of that matters. Is he top dog? Is he leading the league in assists? I've learned in this thread that that's the only way to gage Karlsson.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

He can be better than Karlsson and also be the luckiest player in NHL history.

Coffey managed to play with Gretzky AND Messier AND Kurri AND Lemieux AND Francis AND Gretzky again AND Yzerman AND Fedorov AND Lindros AND Francis again.

There are a ton of guys who went an entire career without playing with the likes of one of those guys, including Karlsson until now.

All those players were lucky to play with Coffey

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

Karlsson

I take the the erratic pilot over the first class passenger

 

[AvroArrow]

Karlsson is a poor man's Coffey.

Karlsson is a rich mans Tyson Barrie. Dog shit defensively, 0 awareness and IQ, elite offensive skills, skating/passing etc.

 

[wetcoast]

All those players were lucky to play with Coffey

All of those said players were great before and after Coffey so there is that.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

All of those said players were great before and after Coffey so there is that.

Coffey was great after the generational players also

 

[inthewings]

I was going to vote Coffey. Then I saw that someone bumped this thread because Karlsson has "fallen off a cliff". In a season where he's on pace for 60 points and +20 with outstanding fancy stats at 33 years old. So if that is Karlsson falling off a cliff he's clearly better than Coffey.