Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part VII: Eliitti! - Mod Warning Post #79

[thunder16]

Uhhmmm sorry wrong about what? That Laine shouldn't had an assist?

Question: What happened if Laine didn't pass to Wheeler?

Never mind that once Shef passes back to Wheeler Laine is cut out of the assist its 3 passes and 4 for the goal. The NHL only gives assist for 2 passes!

 

[Duke749]

Possession schmosession. Corsi has nothing at all to do with the real meaningful puck possession and good scoring chances. A completely useless stat just by itself. And not very useful until you have tons of other kind of needed information.

I’m not talking about corsi. I’m talking about when Laine would just chip it off the glass and out while having full possession or when he would try and get cute one on one with a defender and just turn it over. Literally has nothing to do with corsi. Hence why it’s nowhere in my post.

 

[Maukkis]

Possession schmosession. Corsi has nothing at all to do with the real meaningful puck possession and good scoring chances. A completely useless stat just by itself. And not very useful until you have tons of other kind of needed information.

It sure seems to be a reason to split CSW up, according to some geniuses.

 

[Ippenator]

My head hurts too much here.

From 65 pace to 115 pace just by changing his C, well you've convinced me

115 point player is one of the best players in the league, if not the best even if his 2way game isn't elite. Laine is very very far from that today.

And again, Laine didn't win a single puck race at the start of season, his hands& passing were way off. No matter how some want those weren't on Little/2nd line clicking. Laine didn't skate for 6months and focused on non ice training. That's on him.

If my arguments are weak it shouldn't be too difficult to tell how Laine is among the best(top3) players in the World.

Just take a Burana and chill. Or stop reading and posting here if it’s so horrible to you that all of us can’t agree with your opinion. I never understood why some people seriously think that somekind of general consensus should be reached on these boards. If different opinions leads into debates, then debates it is. Just deal with it, or then don’t deal with it and quit complaining here. Do something more valuable with your time.

 

[BB88]

You are not getting it (probably on purpose). You are arguing that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen, and I have clearly stated why I think it is POSSIBLE, maybe not likely but certainly possible. There is clear data that shows what happens when you "switch c's" as you vaguely put it. Some luck on top and it is POSSIBLE.

I think Laine will be the best player in the world, but I am not certain of it. The kid is scoring goals at TWICE the pace an AVERAGE NHL'er does. Just think about that for a second. Let it really sink in. Add to that his playmaking skills, and now his upgraded defensive game, and voilà.

You are jumping on "he COULD be a 1.4 PPG player", and then calling for help when your arguments are contradicted.

I've seen nothing here that suggests Laine is in the McDavid/Karlsson level today, and maybe ahead of them.

Some Laine fans love to overhype him and then we have to listen to those comments for months and months. It's pretty damm painfull to visit the main board threads because of it.
I'd like to have good hockey talks but it's impossible.

Say 90 point/50 goal pace, which would get him to the elite superstar tier, which would be a faaaaaaaaaaaantastic achievement by a 19y, but that's not good enough, have to go that extra mile and add a crazy 25 point on top of it. You need to realize how difficult those extra points are to get. You can't have a single, smallest bad strecth during a 82 game season.

 

[grieves]

I've seen nothing here that suggests Laine is in the McDavid/Karlsson level today, and maybe ahead of them.

Some Laine fans love to overhype him and then we have to listen to those comments for months and months. It's pretty damm painfull to visit the main board threads because of it.
I'd like to have good hockey talks but it's impossible.

Say 90 point/50 goal pace, which would get him to the elite superstar tier, which would be a faaaaaaaaaaaantastic achievement by a 19y, but that's not good enough, have to go that extra mile and add a crazy 25 point on top of it. You need to realize how difficult those extra points are to get. You can't have a bad strecth during a 82 game season.

You just won't get it, so I'm not going to try anymore. I am referencing clear data and giving clear reasoning for a POSSIBILITY. All you have, is resorting to this petty stuff that no-one cares about.

We are talking strictly offensive production, not Laine being the best player in the world at 19.

 

[thunder16]

That has always been considered an assist...

No it hasn't

 

[BB88]

You just won't get it, so I'm not going to try anymore. I am referencing clear data and giving clear reasoning for a POSSIBILITY. All you have, is resorting to this petty stuff that no-one cares about.

We are talking strictly offensive production, not Laine being the best player in the world at 19.

All I can do is laugh right now.

You've shown nothing to suggest 115 points is possible for todays Laine.
The bolded is just beautiful.

 

[Ippenator]

I’m not talking about corsi. I’m talking about when Laine would just chip it off the glass and out while having full possession or when he would try and get cute one on one with a defender and just turn it over. Literally has nothing to do with corsi. Hence why it’s nowhere in my post.

And why do you think he is doing that? I can assure you that him dumping the puck easily definitely has to do with Maurice’s super conservative tactics. That is in fact what most of the team is doing constantly anyway. And why anyway it should be exactly Laine’s main responsibility to be taking care of the puck possession and playmaking? I honestly think that the main role in those areas should still be put on the first and second line centers. Little can’t do anything in those areas or anything to help his wingers maintain the possession better. If Laine and Ehlers would have a true playmaking center, it would for sure affect those areas of their game very positively too.

 

[Ippenator]

No it hasn't

Yes it has. Go and read a rule book. You are simply wrong here dude.

 

[Ippenator]

Here is what I found about the secondary assist in the internet. Confirms that me and some others were right about it. A completely correct assist for Laine in that certain case.

”Additionally, if a player passes the puck to another player who then completes a give-and-go with a different player for a goal, the player who made the pass that set up the goal gets the primary assist, and the player who passed to the eventual goal scorer before the give-and-go took place gets the secondary assist. This is essentially because assists are to be awarded to the last (up to) two players of the scoring team who had possession of the puck before the eventual goal scorer had possession and ultimately scored, regardless of whether that eventual goal scorer had possession at any time in between the two other players. This also means that possession of the puck can go from and in between the eventual goal scorer and eventual assist getters an infinite amount of times, and this scoring standard will still be applied. The no change in team possession guideline still applies to these particular cases.”

 

[Deedog99]

Keeping Laines production down to say 60 instead of 80 points could save the jets about 2 mil per season on a long term deal. That's why you won't see him with scheif and wheels.

 

[PhilJets]

This Patrik Laine Kid is awesome in and out of the rink.

To think he is 19 years the whole season and he will be just 20 when they reach round 2 of the playoffs next year

They aRe grooming roslo to play RW so the hammer god can play LW

So the hammer god can one time those passes from best buds 55 and 26

Seriously and i believe it makes sense. Im repeating myself here lol

Schiefele+wheeler & Little+Laine 《 schiefele+laine & Little+wheeler

But i'm not the coach. But its nice that we dont need to make that tough decision for coach Mo always easier here than down there.

GO JETS GO

HAMMER GOD will heat up...

 

[SirKlaus]

I just don't get this 'best possible lineup' discussion. There is no way to know that lineup switch accommodating Laine with Scheif would have produced even better record that the team has now. Maybe let it be for a while and when the team starts skidding and the blender is out - Scheif and Laine will light it up together - then let us all know how you told us so.

 

[thunder16]

Here is what I found about the secondary assist in the internet. Confirms that me and some others were right about it. A completely correct assist for Laine in that certain case.

”Additionally, if a player passes the puck to another player who then completes a give-and-go with a different player for a goal, the player who made the pass that set up the goal gets the primary assist, and the player who passed to the eventual goal scorer before the give-and-go took place gets the secondary assist. This is essentially because assists are to be awarded to the last (up to) two players of the scoring team who had possession of the puck before the eventual goal scorer had possession and ultimately scored, regardless of whether that eventual goal scorer had possession at any time in between the two other players. This also means that possession of the puck can go from and in between the eventual goal scorer and eventual assist getters an infinite amount of times, and this scoring standard will still be applied. The no change in team possession guideline still applies to these particular cases.”

Well my friend it seems that you are right. I took it for granted that the 3rd pass has never been awarded an assist.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

I just don't get this 'best possible lineup' discussion. There is no way to know that lineup switch accommodating Laine with Scheif would have produced even better record that the team has now. Maybe let it be for a while and when the team starts skidding and the blender is out - Scheif and Laine will light it up together - then let us all know how you told us so.

Lol. Doesn't matter who plays with Scheifele, the line will be successful because he's so damn good. I'd like to see Scheif centering Laine and some scrub.....Armia or something.

 

[Duke749]

And why do you think he is doing that? I can assure you that him dumping the puck easily definitely has to do with Maurice’s super conservative tactics. That is in fact what most of the team is doing constantly anyway. And why anyway it should be exactly Laine’s main responsibility to be taking care of the puck possession and playmaking? I honestly think that the main role in those areas should still be put on the first and second line centers. Little can’t do anything in those areas or anything to help his wingers maintain the possession better. If Laine and Ehlers would have a true playmaking center, it would for sure affect those areas of their game very positively too.

Wow. That’s some serious blinders you got on dude. I think you’ll find that most people won’t find it coincidental that last night when Laine was strong on the puck and skated with it out of the zone it led to a goal. He needs to do more of that and i can assure you he doesn’t blame everyone else for his play as you seem to be implying.

 

[Ippenator]

Wow. That’s some serious blinders you got on dude. I think you’ll find that most people won’t find it coincidental that last night when Laine was strong on the puck and skated with it out of the zone it led to a goal. He needs to do more of that and i can assure you he doesn’t blame everyone else for his play as you seem to be implying.

That was for sure a mistake from him. But still some of you here like to emphasize his mistakes like he makes more of them than most in the team. I presented here a while ago already statistics of the Jets top player’s on giveaways and takeaways, and it showed that Laine was in the top 4 in the team with the difference of those stats. He was one behind of Ehlers and for example way better than Wheeler, whom was in fact apalling in both, giveaways and takeaways. Wheeler was way, way worse than Laine in both. Still, he seems to be doing pretty fine while playing with Scheifele, don’t you think?

I’m practically sure that Laine would be at least on the scoring pace with Wheeler, if he was playing in the Jets first line next to Scheifele. Last season with Scheifele and this season with him on the power play, should pretty much prove what most likely would happen, if they played together for the whole season.

But as long as the Jets are winning I’m actually fine, as long as they can get somehow an offensively good center who can do also great playmaking. How Little is playing, and how the chemistry is between him and his wingers, it’s a huge waste of scoring potential to keep the second line as it is right now.

 

[Duke749]

That was for sure a mistake from him. But still some of you here like to emphasize his mistakes like he makes more of them most in the team. I presented here a while ago already statistics of the Jets top player’s on giveaways and takeaways, and it showed that Laine was in the top 4 in the team with the difference of those stats. He was one behind of Ehlers and for example way better than Wheeler, whom was in fact apalling in both, giveaways and takeaways. Wheeler was way, way worse than Laine in both. Still, he seems to be doing pretty fine while playing with Scheifele, don’t you think?

I’m practically sure that Laine would be at least on the scoring pace with Wheeler, if he was playing in the Jets first line next to Scheifele. Last season with Scheifele and this season with him on the power play, should pretty much prove what most likely would happen, if they played together for the whole season.

But as long as the Jets are winning I’m actually fine, as long as they can get somehow an offensively good center who can do also great playmaking. How Little is playing, and how the chemistry is between him and his wingers, it’s a huge waste of scoring potential to keep the second line as it is right now.

Those giveaways and takeaways numbers are not reliable in the least bit if you got them off of nhl.com. If they were actually accurate the numbers would be much much higher.
Seriously, go pick any game at random and watch it and document tkwy’s and gvwy’s and you will almost certainly come to a different conclusion then what is documented “officially”.

Nobody is trying to overemphasize his mistakes. People are just pointing out that Laine’s numbers aren’t better mostly because of his own play and not literally everyone else.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Those giveaways and takeaways numbers are not reliable in the least bit if you got them off of nhl.com. If they were actually accurate the numbers would be much much higher.

Nobody is trying to overemphasize his mistakes. People are just pointing out that Laine’s numbers aren’t better mostly because of his own play and not literally everyone else.

Who on the second line has great numbers? Or even numbers they "should" have.

 

[Duke749]

Who on the second line has great numbers?

What does that have to do with my post?

 

[Ippenator]

Those giveaways and takeaways numbers are not reliable in the least bit if you got them off of nhl.com. If they were actually accurate the numbers would be much much higher.
Seriously, go pick any game at random and watch it and document tkwy’s and gvwy’s and you will almost certainly come to a different conclusion then what is documented “officially”.

Nobody is trying to overemphasize his mistakes. People are just pointing out that Laine’s numbers aren’t better mostly because of his own play and not literally everyone else.

I rather believe that NHL.COM has pretty good correctness in those stats, as they anyway support what I have seen in the games, and I have watched all but one of this season’s Jets games. And in those games I have exactly seen that even though Laine has had some mistakes with the puck, there has been many players in the team whom have had even more problems than him with their puck control. Wheeler has been in fact pretty bad in this area. Turning the puck over a lot and having a lot of problems with getting the puck safely out from the Jets own zone, thus being a big reason why the 1st line has been surprisingly often hemmed in their own zone and not the best of lines defensively. But Wheeler and the whole 1st line have been so good in the most important thing, which is scoring goals or setting them up.

But if someone seriously here thinks that Laine couldn’t do the same with the right linemates and with three minutes more of quality playtime per game, then I have to really say that I do know who is watching the games with blinders on their eyes...

 

[Duke749]

Trust me, those numbers are not reliable at all. Ask anyone that has looked into them for any significant period of time.

Wheeler doesn’t really have anything to do with Laine other then the fact that some seem to think he’s taking a spot from Laine.

I think you’re missing the point i and some others have been trying to make.

 

[Ippenator]

Trust me, those numbers are not reliable at all. Ask anyone that has looked into them for any significant period of time.

Wheeler doesn’t really have anything to do with Laine other then the fact that some seem to think he’s taking a spot from Laine.

I think you’re missing the point i and some others have been trying to make.

I still choose to believe in rather official stats than people whom see what they want to see. You seriously don’t understand what Wheeler has to do with this? The point was exactly that Laine is a very talented player offensively, and that he could score at least on the same pace with Wheeler is doing now, if he got the same chance in the 1st line. And the point was to show that yes Laine has made definitely some mistakes, but still not in the amount as the very much appreciated captain of the team.

This should show that Laine is not as bad defensively or possession wise as some of you constantly try to claim. But your agenda is in fact pretty obvious, as nothing is really accepted as proof. Even facts or comparisons are not allowed, because you have just simply decided that Laine is so bad, although the captain and several other players are worse or around the same level with Laine in defensive play and puck possession. No one has claimed that Laine has not done some mistakes. But to point it out like you are doing constantly, like he is somehow extremely bad and worse than most of the team in these areas, just shows your agenda after all.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Trust me, those numbers are not reliable at all. Ask anyone that has looked into them for any significant period of time.

Wheeler doesn’t really have anything to do with Laine other then the fact that some seem to think he’s taking a spot from Laine.

I think you’re missing the point i and some others have been trying to make.

Little and Laine isn't working. It has been garbage for like what, 40-50 games now? When people want to shuffle the lines, some users jump to their throats acting like it's the greatest insult on earth to Little & Wheeler. Why? I get that Maurice isn't changing the first line, but i really think that Wheeler could get Little going and Laine would work better with Scheif than Little. Wheeler isn't taking his spot and the first line is good right now, it's just that the second isn't. The only reason people aren't more up and arms about this is obviously because the team is winning.

Or do you think that Wheeler's production would fall off a cliff when playing with Little?