Out of Town (where games matter)

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

it's weird...it probably went epic scale within Habs fans after the trade.

But it was completely the opposite for everyone else who wasn't a Habs fan.

He went from being a player that was despised and often unfairly targeted for certain things (i'll never forget when he 'spit' on Michael Del Zotto) to being a player who widely became appreciated for finally being able to be himself once traded.

Well that's the old and tired anti-habs bias at work.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I doubt anyone here hates Weber, just hate that Bergevin said that the trade made us a better team which is comical.

I hate what he represents.

 

[417]

People being on both sides on an argument, doesn’t mean there’s an actual debate. Some argue for the sake of arguing. And then some actually go to lengths to prove their point.

It’s a sports team. Some people don’t ever want to see the negative that exists.

IMO, they are not so close. One is superior in the way the NHL is played today. The other is Weber.

Again, said it yesterday and have for awhile...they're probably closer than people would want to admit.

Perhaps not in charisma or quotables...but on the ice, I still think they have similar impacts, just in different ways.

Though again, I have to point out before the hit squad is alerted...I do and always have preferred Subban.

 

[jaffy27]

See...WTK is not the problem here. Your response is. I guess you prepare your own answer prior to this post. How is saying PK is much better saying that Weber is Hal Gill? Didn't you read WTK saying that Weber was great? How were you able to misread that? You are talking about WTK being emotionnaly wrapped.....read your reply again and tell me who is.....If we'd actually reply to things that are actually written, this board would be so much better.

Prepare my post??.....like write, edit it, add content, omit some, are you for real LOL

It’s HF, not a essay lol

I write and post brother....

Funny how you don’t come to my défense when I’ve mentioned numerous times the many mistakes Bergevin has made and I’m labelled a “Bergevin can do no wrong” type poster.....where were you for me then????

Constantly bringing up Weber’s last game as a Pred where he was -5 is no vote of Weber is a good defenceman. It’s purely meant to destroy his character and to gain momentum amongst certain posters here to hate on Weber.

Webersheet, Hal Gill with a shot, -5 in the most important game of his life, team canada doesn’t know what they’re doing when selecting him, his hit on Zetterberg, his stare alone will save this franchise, fishing for trout back in Sicamous, all knives in Weber’s back when all this guy is trying to do is win games for this team.

Pathetic to say the least

 

[jaffy27]

I hate what he represents.

The Canadiens

 

[WeThreeKings]

The Canadiens

Yep.

Over 20 years removed from being a contender, from being relevant.. from valuing talent in its purest form.

The Canadiens these days is an institution for ex players, grinders and idiots to pat eachother's back and get paid more money while they tread water. Harkening back to the glory days, when they played, when Lemeiux and Gretzky had their bodies destroyed in the clutch and grab era.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I doubt anyone here hates Weber, just hate that Bergevin said that the trade made us a better team which is comical.

Of course, there’s absolutely no hate for Weber.
For me, there isn’t even any love for Subban either.

I’m truly indifferent to the players.

And neither is perfect. Both players have flaws to their game.

The problem for me is that the “issues” that Weber has, are, IMO, vital to the success of a hockey team. His inability to be...adaptable, is what holds him, and as a a consequence his team, back.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Which is completely the opposite reaction he got from the public when he first came back. He even said in interview how he appreciated the support he got from habs fans after the trade.

Once this management is gone, it is a possibility. You discount it because you're doing ego projection.

Think back to when he was traded, and all the vitriol people were spewing about him because of the media's and MB and Therrien's smear campaign. The reaction was different when he came back because things had time to simmer down and PK is a professional. The average beer drinking fan has a short memory; things were more positive in the media, so there was cheers. And because they remembered him for who he is rather than the smear campaign influencing them. PK was hurt, heartbroken. He hides it well because he still has ties to the city with the Children's Hospital and whatnot. Of course he is going to be positive in interviews. To think he will come back is believing in a fairytale ending; it won't happen.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Again, said it yesterday and have for awhile...they're probably closer than people would want to admit.

Perhaps not in charisma or quotables...but on the ice, I still think they have similar impacts, just in different ways.

Though again, I have to point out before the hit squad is alerted...I do and always have preferred Subban.

Yeah I’m trying to be as clear as possibly here.

I’m not here saying Subban is a 1 and Weber is a 6, not at all.

It’s just simply for me that Weber has less tools in his arsenal to be as effective as Subban. I see Subban as being able to play and carry any kind of partner, whether it’s a stay at home guy or a full fledged offensive D, BUT still be effective.

On the other hand, IMO, Weber is really only effective, in all parts of the game, if he has a good quality puck mover as a teammate, simply because, its one of his main drawbacks.

There is absolutely zero question in mind that away from the puck, in the D zone, Weber is a vastly superior player. The problem is that, today, it’s no longer just about that. Now it’s about defending, getting the puck back, breaking out either by passing or carrying the puck and then producing offense.

Your best dmen, need to be able to do all of these things at a high level. Weber, simply cannot. That doesn’t make him a bad dman though. Just not as effective.

He’s vanilla. You need rocky road.

 

[417]

I hate what he represents.

Not sure why Weber represents your opinion on the GM...

What Weber represents, is someone we should all be proud of. He's an excellent dmen and has been and IMO, will continue to be, just like the player he was traded for.

Bergevin and his mistakes are his own.

using Weber as another vessel for your hate seems petty to me. But perhaps i'm misinterpreting your take on him.

 

[DAChampion]

We've finally stopped endlessly reviewing the McDonagh trade. ItsI now a relatively rare discussion around here.

 

[417]

Yeah I’m trying to be as clear as possibly here.

I’m not here saying Subban is a 1 and Weber is a 6, not at all.

No need to clarify that - I know that's not what you meant

It’s just simply for me that Weber has less tools in his arsenal to be as effective as Subban. I see Subban as being able to play and carry any kind of partner, whether it’s a stay at home guy or a full fledged offensive D, BUT still be effective.

On the other hand, IMO, Weber is really only effective, in all parts of the game, if he has a good quality puck mover as a teammate, simply because, its one of his main drawbacks.

Agreed about Weber but I also think it applies to Subban...he needs a partner who is positionally sound, just as much as Weber needs a partner who more mobile.

Anyways, that's my personal take on both.

There is absolutely zero question in mind that away from the puck, in the D zone, Weber is a vastly superior player. The problem is that, today, it’s no longer just about that. Now it’s about defending, getting the puck back, breaking out either by passing or carrying the puck and then producing offense.

Your best dmen, need to be able to do all of these things at a high level. Weber, simply cannot. That doesn’t make him a bad dman though. Just not as effective.

He’s vanilla. You need rocky road.

Good description lol

But I think you need a combination of a lot of things to have an effective D-corps...IMO, Subban and Weber are equally as effective in the way they're most comfortable playing.

I just personally prefer to have the type of Dman Subban is....I just don't agree that these 2 players are levels apart, they're not IMO. Nor do I agree that Weber isn't the type of dman that's effective in the NHL these days.

It's not because he's not as mobile that he's not a 2018 type of Dman...look at Andrei Markov, he stopped being mobile 10yrs ago and even up until last year was one of the best puck moving Dmen in the NHL.

In fact, if Subban was a lefty...he and Weber would probably form the prototype of what you want in a D pairing (or if Weber was a lefty if you prefer).

 

[EdAVSfan]

Not sure why Weber represents your opinion on the GM...

What Weber represents, is someone we should all be proud of. He's an excellent dmen and has been and IMO, will continue to be, just like the player he was traded for.

Bergevin and his mistakes are his own.

using Weber as another vessel for your hate seems petty to me. But perhaps i'm misinterpreting your take on him.

It’s unfortunate, because of how posting on boards is. It disconnects the thoughts.

Fans are unhappy with the GM.
They use the “trade” as evidence that the GM is inadequate.
Other people defend the trade.
Now it’s become a Subban vs Weber debate
But reality is, that’s it’s still about Bergevin.

But with separation of all the posts, it’s near impossible to link the debate to the original thought. Too many posts and time in between.

I really don’t think people are trying to crap on Weber because they hate Weber. I think they’re crapping on Weber to prove a point.

If people continue to challenge that it was a good trade, fans will never stop putting Weber down, even though, it’s not really about him.

 

[groovejuice]

He would have to. Tough one to have come back for though. Grown man crying on national TV and all.

Colby Armstrong tells a pretty funny story on Hockey Central how Ryan Smythe would here it all the time. Guys would line up for the whistle and do the sniffling crying act for him.
Or when he came by their bench.

The worst guy for crying during interviews was Eric Lindros. Saw him weep live on air a few times.

 

[EdAVSfan]

No need to clarify that - I know that's not what you meant



Agreed about Weber but I also think it applies to Subban...he needs a partner who is positionally sound, just as much as Weber needs a partner who more mobile.

Anyways, that's my personal take on both.


Good description lol

But I think you need a combination of a lot of things to have an effective D-corps...IMO, Subban and Weber are equally as effective in the way they're most comfortable playing.

I just personally prefer to have the type of Dman Subban is....I just don't agree that these 2 players are levels apart, they're not IMO. Nor do I agree that Weber isn't the type of dman that's effective in the NHL these days.

It's not because he's not as mobile that he's not a 2018 type of Dman...look at Andrei Markov, he stopped being mobile 10yrs ago and even up until last year was one of the best puck moving Dmen in the NHL.

In fact, if Subban was a lefty...he and Weber would probably form the prototype of what you want in a D pairing (or if Weber was a lefty if you prefer).

Yeah so if we’re analyzing an entire d-corps, that’s different. I’m really only looking at a 1 to 1 here. Since they’re playing sooo many minutes, and they’re usually leading their teams, it’s important that they have all the necessary skill sets.

Sure, Subban might be better off with a positionally sound dman, but in no way do I think he needs it. He’s equally adept offensively and defensively.
The problem with Weber imo, is he’s too easy to game plan against. The nhl nowadays is all about structure and defense. That structure and defensive tactic only becomes exacerbated in the playoffs. Weber is who he is. He’s easier to plan for, because you know without a doubt what he won’t do, and that’s carry out the puck consistently and efficiently.
He can’t adapt his style of play. That doesn’t mean he’s ineffective. But it does mean to me that in the playoffs, he becomes more easily “neutralized”

Subban is obviously different. He can carry it end to end, stretch pass, etc. He can adapt to a teams tactics.

Weber can... pass it to his partner.
Other than that, it’s putting MAJOR strain on the forwards to do all the heavy lifting in transition. That’ll work for a while. But playing the same team over and over again, will eventually hurt you.

As for Markov, sure he wasn’t as mobile butte was Einstein with the puck. His passing was immaculate. Passing isn’t just about being accurate. There’s an art to being to properly time a pass in stride, to when a player is just about to break loose, to anticipate the play right after a pass is made to a teammate.

It simply boils down to a lack of creativity on Weber’s part. He just doesn’t have it. And it’s why I’d put him as more of a 1-2 rather than a pure 1.

 

[417]

Sure, Subban might be better off with a positionally sound dman, but in no way do I think he needs it. He’s equally adept offensively and defensively.

Agreed that he doesn't 'need' it per se...any more (or less) than Weber needs a mobile partner, look at how excellent Markov/Weber were last year, and Markov was/is even less mobile than Weber..

The problem with Weber imo, is he’s too easy to game plan against. The nhl nowadays is all about structure and defense. That structure and defensive tactic only becomes exacerbated in the playoffs. Weber is who he is. He’s easier to plan for, because you know without a doubt what he won’t do, and that’s carry out the puck consistently and efficiently.
He can’t adapt his style of play. That doesn’t mean he’s ineffective. But it does mean to me that in the playoffs, he becomes more easily “neutralized”.

Interesting take...because when I think of "structure & defense" few dmen come to mind before Shea Weber. He personifies both of those things (even though I tend to think his effectiveness defensively is overstated).

But I do agree with you that Weber is what he is, he's not going to step out of himself to take over a game/series, he's going to be who he is as a player game 1 through game 80-whatever.

Subban is obviously different. He can carry it end to end, stretch pass, etc. He can adapt to a teams tactics.

That's where we disagree - I think he struggles adapting to team tactics because he often wants to be THE difference. I think this hurts him the most, by wanting to do too much. Teams that scout properly know how to counter what Subban does. The same way Weber is predictable, I find PK very predictable as well...

The way he telegraphs his one timer, the way he carries the puck and ALWAYS goes to his left when crossing into the o-zone, etc...good coaches game plan against stuff like this.

Weber can... pass it to his partner.
Other than that, it’s putting MAJOR strain on the forwards to do all the heavy lifting in transition. That’ll work for a while. But playing the same team over and over again, will eventually hurt you.

There are different ways to move the puck up the ice, transporting it out yourself isn't ALWAYS the most optimal solution or option. What you want from a player like Weber who isn't the most mobile/agile out there is to make a strong first pass, tape to tape, and I think he does this most of the time.

As for Markov, sure he wasn’t as mobile butte was Einstein with the puck. His passing was immaculate. Passing isn’t just about being accurate. There’s an art to being to properly time a pass in stride, to when a player is just about to break loose, to anticipate the play right after a pass is made to a teammate.

Dont have to sell me on Markov - I've always thought he was one of, if not the most under-appreciated Dman of his generation.

It simply boils down to a lack of creativity on Weber’s part. He just doesn’t have it. And it’s why I’d put him as more of a 1-2 rather than a pure 1.

Meh...to each his own, I won't say you're wrong, you've got sound reasoning. I just think that applies to both players personally.

Yes Weber isn't as creative or pleasing to the eye...but Subban could use from some more cerebral play and making better decisions on the ice.

Again, for me, two excellent Dmen who both have flaws preventing them from belonging to the absolute elite tier of Dmen in the NHL.

 

[Laurentide]

PK will never come back. Not after the smear campaign the public, fans, and media threw on him when he was traded. After all he did for the city, he was **** on because of MB and Therrien's agendas, and the public bought in. He will never be back, and I don't blame him.

He will never come back, not because he doesn't want to but because Habs ownership and management don't want him. He is not the type of person who can co-exist with the type of people this franchise has in place to coach and manage it. It's like hiring Steve Jobs to work in a cubicle at IBM. They are the complete antithesis of one another.

 

[le_sean]

We've finally stopped endlessly reviewing the McDonagh trade. ItsI now a relatively rare discussion around here.

I mean as stupid as it looks now, that 2009-10 Habs playoff run was probably our most exciting memory of the last 20 years.

 

[Garbageyuk]

He will never come back, not because he doesn't want to but because Habs ownership and management don't want him. He is not the type of person who can co-exist with the type of people this franchise has in place to coach and manage it. It's like hiring Steve Jobs to work in a cubicle at IBM. They are the complete antithesis of one another.

True as well. There are many reasons why he won't be back. Like I said, some people want to believe in a fairytale ending.

 

[PaulD]

I mean as stupid as it looks now, that 2009-10 Habs playoff run was probably our most exciting memory of the last 20 years.

Agreed.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Zdeno Chara signed a 1 year extension at 5mil for 2018-2019.

 

[Laurentide]

Zdeno Chara signed a 1 year extension at 5mil for 2018-2019.

Alzner-type money.

 

[PaulD]

The worst guy for crying during interviews was Eric Lindros. Saw him weep live on air a few times.

Yes I seem to remember that.
Gretz has the famous one in Edmonton.
Stajan actually cried at the end of a fight while playing for leafs.
And Subbans debacle in Montreal.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Alzner-type money.

Yep!
Only the $$$ is comparable though.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yep!
Only the $$$ is comparable though.

More comparable to the contract Markov would have accepted.