Proposal: NYR-ANA

smoneil

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cept the trade isn’t 1st + 2nd for just Henrique or Vatrano for 1.5 years , it’s both + retention on Henrique.

And teams make these moves all the time, and if you don’t pay that price other teams likely will…. There is no need to move Vatrano, if a team wants him they have to incentivize us to move him

The only thing wrong with the trade is maybe kakko is being undervalued… but he is starting to come off as a reclamation project that you’re hoping can become silfverberg, than a star winger…. And his potential contract might not be realistically doable, he’s going to get a raise most likely

Is Zegras a "reclamation project" because his numbers are low and he's had some injuries this season? Kakko had his best season last year, and on a team that didn't have a stacked PP1, his numbers would have been even better with PP opportunities. He's having a down year largely due to a bad injury and then being strapped to Bonino for a chunk of the season.

I don't think Vatrano is a fit for the Rangers at all. He isn't defensively capable enough. The Kreider/Zib/Vatrano line put up some numbers, but they gave up as many as they scored and got penned in their own zone all playoffs. I'd rather go for after guys like Reilly Smith or Anthony Duclair to address our need for a winger, either of whom would be far cheaper than Vatrano and could do the job we need from them (ie: not PP) just as well as Vatrano (and Smith would have the added benefit of a lot of playoff experience/success).

Henrique, depending on the price, could be a good fit for that 3rd line C spot that we need. As I've said elsewhere, my concern there is the price and his lack of recent playoff experience. Barring any better options, I'd be open to a deal JUST for Henrique, but it would be depending on the price. Brodzinski hasn't been awful or anything. The need for a winger is bigger than the need for a C in my opinion.
 

smoneil

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If you read the rangers trade boards or even the trade board zegras threads, you’ll see that’s essentially what’s being offered for zegras most time… and the quotes “haha you think you’ll get that return for a 7 point player “

And it's ridiculous there as well. I think a significant portion of Rangers fans looking to trade for Zegras just like the idea that he's from NY.
 
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Zegs2sendhelp

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Is Zegras a "reclamation project" because his numbers are low and he's had some injuries this season? Kakko had his best season last year, and on a team that didn't have a stacked PP1, his numbers would have been even better with PP opportunities. He's having a down year largely due to a bad injury and then being strapped to Bonino for a chunk of the season.

I don't think Vatrano is a fit for the Rangers at all. He isn't defensively capable enough. The Kreider/Zib/Vatrano line put up some numbers, but they gave up as many as they scored and got penned in their own zone all playoffs. I'd rather go for after guys like Reilly Smith or Anthony Duclair to address our need for a winger, either of whom would be far cheaper than Vatrano and could do the job we need from them (ie: not PP) just as well as Vatrano (and Smith would have the added benefit of a lot of playoff experience/success).

Henrique, depending on the price, could be a good fit for that 3rd line C spot that we need. As I've said elsewhere, my concern there is the price and his lack of recent playoff experience. Barring any better options, I'd be open to a deal JUST for Henrique, but it would be depending on the price. Brodzinski hasn't been awful or anything. The need for a winger is bigger than the need for a C in my opinion.
Henrique can do both, which I think is part of the value of him.

As far as kakko…. Point wise through his career he’s basically flirted around .40. He had a solid year last year and you could argue that he doesn’t get a real chance to score in New York…. But is that something that’s going to change anytime soon? Idk doesn’t really seem like that. Is a team going to pay full value as a 2nd overall player that hasn’t really played up to his draft hype? Do the rangers have cap space to hold him here and see if he takes that next step?

I’d love to add kakko from Anaheim perspective…. But I assume rangers fans think he’s a big part of a zegras trade. Which I don’t think is the case unless there is significant + attached to him
 
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Zegs2sendhelp

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god dammit I don't want Henrique. But it seems all but assured Pizzaboy is going to get him.
I mean if you’re paying a 2nd+ for him…. You’ll prob be happy with what you’re getting. But I do think other teams are more willing to pay more
 

smoneil

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Henrique can do both, which I think is part of the value of him.

As far as kakko…. Point wise through his career he’s basically flirted around .40. He had a solid year last year and you could argue that he doesn’t get a real chance to score in New York…. But is that something that’s going to change anytime soon? Idk doesn’t really seem like that. Is a team going to pay full value as a 2nd overall player that hasn’t really played up to his draft hype? Do the rangers have cap space to hold him here and see if he takes that next step?

Kakko and Laf are complicated. They weren't developed the way top3 picks usually get developed (ie: spoonfed minutes and PP time to push through the transition). I thought it was stupid at the time, and I still do. Top guys are used to being relied upon to win the game. To paraphrase The Replacements, winners want the puck. The Rangers thought they were smarter than 50 years of draft history and tried to develop them on the 3rd (and 4th) lines. This is why I usually just kind of roll my eyes when people talk about Draft +X and production. They literally aren't getting the opportunities needed to produce like top players, despite playing just as well or better than the Rangers top guys at even strength (Kakko last year, Laf this year).

My hope is that, as more of the young players work their way into the roster (Othmann, Perrault), the Rangers go to a true two-unit PP, where the hot unit gets the majority of the minutes on any given night. I also don't know why they haven't tried working Kakko into the PK rotation. There could also be something regarding Kreider once his NMC turns into a L-NTC which could open up minutes. There's a lot of moving pieces.

The real issue isn't cap space, but willingness on the part of Kakko to bide his time. He doesn't seem all that happy with the opportunities he's been given, and I don't particularly blame him (the way the team chose to develop them has already cost Laf and Kakko money). I hope he sticks around, because I truly think that when he gets regular top line/top PP minutes he's going to be a beast. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he asks for a trade to a team that will have that opportunity NOW rather than down the line. Even if that happened, I wouldn't want to trade him for a rental (I'd rather it be for another young player--ideally a C--in a similar spot or, barring that, a 1st rounder).
 

Zegs2sendhelp

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Kakko and Laf are complicated. They weren't developed the way top3 picks usually get developed (ie: spoonfed minutes and PP time to push through the transition). I thought it was stupid at the time, and I still do. Top guys are used to being relied upon to win the game. To paraphrase The Replacements, winners want the puck. The Rangers thought they were smarter than 50 years of draft history and tried to develop them on the 3rd (and 4th) lines. This is why I usually just kind of roll my eyes when people talk about Draft +X and production. They literally aren't getting the opportunities needed to produce like top players, despite playing just as well or better than the Rangers top guys at even strength (Kakko last year, Laf this year).

My hope is that, as more of the young players work their way into the roster (Othmann, Perrault), the Rangers go to a true two-unit PP, where the hot unit gets the majority of the minutes on any given night. I also don't know why they haven't tried working Kakko into the PK rotation. There could also be something regarding Kreider once his NMC turns into a L-NTC which could open up minutes. There's a lot of moving pieces.

The real issue isn't cap space, but willingness on the part of Kakko to bide his time. He doesn't seem all that happy with the opportunities he's been given, and I don't particularly blame him (the way the team chose to develop them has already cost Laf and Kakko money). I hope he sticks around, because I truly think that when he gets regular top line/top PP minutes he's going to be a beast. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he asks for a trade to a team that will have that opportunity NOW rather than down the line. Even if that happened, I wouldn't want to trade him for a rental (I'd rather it be for another young player--ideally a C--in a similar spot or, barring that, a 1st rounder).
Oh ya def prob don’t want to trade him for a rental(which I assume is why Vatrano was part of the original trade)….

Maybe some form of the Kesler trade
Kakko + 1st + prospect for a young C…. But idk how many are openly available.
 

duckpuck

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Kakko and Laf are complicated. They weren't developed the way top3 picks usually get developed (ie: spoonfed minutes and PP time to push through the transition). I thought it was stupid at the time, and I still do. Top guys are used to being relied upon to win the game. To paraphrase The Replacements, winners want the puck. The Rangers thought they were smarter than 50 years of draft history and tried to develop them on the 3rd (and 4th) lines. This is why I usually just kind of roll my eyes when people talk about Draft +X and production. They literally aren't getting the opportunities needed to produce like top players, despite playing just as well or better than the Rangers top guys at even strength (Kakko last year, Laf this year).

My hope is that, as more of the young players work their way into the roster (Othmann, Perrault), the Rangers go to a true two-unit PP, where the hot unit gets the majority of the minutes on any given night. I also don't know why they haven't tried working Kakko into the PK rotation. There could also be something regarding Kreider once his NMC turns into a L-NTC which could open up minutes. There's a lot of moving pieces.

The real issue isn't cap space, but willingness on the part of Kakko to bide his time. He doesn't seem all that happy with the opportunities he's been given, and I don't particularly blame him (the way the team chose to develop them has already cost Laf and Kakko money). I hope he sticks around, because I truly think that when he gets regular top line/top PP minutes he's going to be a beast. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he asks for a trade to a team that will have that opportunity NOW rather than down the line. Even if that happened, I wouldn't want to trade him for a rental (I'd rather it be for another young player--ideally a C--in a similar spot or, barring that, a 1st rounder).

This touches on an issue that any team looking to trade for Kakko needs to consider - as a pending rfa what does his next contract look like? Given the draft pedigree, he's going to expect a raise and perhaps a long term deal. But the production doesn't really justify much of a raise or a long term deal. Whoever he signs with is probably over paying based on perceived upside.

And just to be clear, I'd be fine if the ducks acquire him since they have the cap space to take a bit of a chance. But I do think the contract uncertainty impacts his value.
 

FiveTacos

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Henrique, depending on the price, could be a good fit for that 3rd line C spot that we need. As I've said elsewhere, my concern there is the price and his lack of recent playoff experience. Barring any better options, I'd be open to a deal JUST for Henrique, but it would be depending on the price.

Rumor (unconfirmed) was a 2nd and one or two 3rds depending on retention, I'm guessing not from this year given the Ducks' surplus of picks, so probably '25 and '26 picks?

My personal guess (disclaimer: completely unsubstantiated) is the Ducks surplus also means they could potentially kick back a pick along with Henrique if it'd help secure something better that they really wanted. But it'd have to be something worthwhile.

I even think there's a few of their non-core but decent pieces that could be in play going the other way, who can contribute this year, but are RFA and may not be in the Ducks' plans. Lundestrom, Leason, and Jones are most notable ... I don't know which of those the Ducks plan on bringing back, but it ain't all of them. But maybe a team that's looking to rent Henrique or Vatrano may also see a longer term role for one of those guys on their roster.
 

tomd

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Rumor (unconfirmed) was a 2nd and one or two 3rds depending on retention, I'm guessing not from this year given the Ducks' surplus of picks, so probably '25 and '26 picks?

My personal guess (disclaimer: completely unsubstantiated) is the Ducks surplus also means they could potentially kick back a pick along with Henrique if it'd help secure something better that they really wanted. But it'd have to be something worthwhile.

I even think there's a few of their non-core but decent pieces that could be in play going the other way, who can contribute this year, but are RFA and may not be in the Ducks' plans. Lundestrom, Leason, and Jones are most notable ... I don't know which of those the Ducks plan on bringing back, but it ain't all of them. But maybe a team that's looking to rent Henrique or Vatrano may also see a longer term role for one of those guys on their roster.
Worth noting that that rumor (speculation?) is a month old and was out there before both Lindholm and Monahan got 1sts. And given how tightlipped the Ducks organization is, it is very unlikely that the rumor has any basis in fact.
 
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Calad

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Worth noting that that rumor (speculation?) is a month old and was out there before both Lindholm and Monahan got 1sts. And given how tightlipped the Ducks organization is, it is very unlikely that the rumor has any basis in fact.

Goes both ways, 2 of the biggest buyers bought the 2 biggest fish on the market, so the competition among buyers is weaker
 

tomd

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Goes both ways, 2 of the biggest buyers bought the 2 biggest fish on the market, so the competition among buyers is weaker
Barring a surprise seller, Henrique is by far the best option for teams looking to get a center. Several teams are looking for a center so I think it is a seller's market for the position.
 
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Goodrow has a ridiculously team-friendly buy out (we'd actually GAIN cap space in the first year). And again, once you factor in the fact that neither Henrique nor Vatrano would be top line guys with PP1 minutes on the Rangers, their production suddenly looks similar to guys who would be available for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Don't pay a premium because a team is so bad that they have 3rd line guys on their top units.
29 goal guys are 3rd liners? Good grief watch some teams besides your own before spouting some nonsense
 

Crazy8oooo

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Would he have 29 goals on a better team with no PP time?
This is such a lazy take considering most any player you choose (that plays on the power play) would have less points without PP time.

All this proves is that Vatrano can step up if needed and be successful doing it. That’s something teams value for the playoffs.
 

AceKing21

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No. Absolutely not. Neither Henrique nor Vatrano will get anywhere near the Rangers' PP1 unit, which means they won't put up the kind of production they have been in Anaheim (particularly Vatrano). Without PP time, Vatrano--at his best--is a 30-40 point player. Kakko has shown the ability to be that now, except Kakko is better defensively and is 7 years younger. Henrique would be the 3rd line center in NY, not the first line center he is in Anaheim. Plus, he has no significant playoff experience. His last playoff point was 12 years ago.

These two are picture perfect examples of putting mediocre players on top lines and 1st unit PPs. On a contender, they'd be 3rd liners, but because of their usage, some moron is going to pay a top six premium for a pair of never-weres.

I'd rather see the Rangers target vet depth that isn't over-inflated by PP time and heavy usage and therefore would come at a much cheaper cost. If I'm giving up a 1st, a 2nd, and Kakko, it had damn well better be returning a player under 25 who will be in NY for a while.
100% nailed it
 

Rasp

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People are missing the point of why you would trade for Henrique and Vatrano at the deadline. The only reason to do this is to win the cup. Thats it. You are paying more than other teams would for these players because they can help you win now, this year.

If your team isnt in a position to win the cup even with them then you dont trade. If your team is in a good position to win the cup then adding solid veterans can push you over the top. That is why its worth a 1st round pick that may not even end up an NHL player.
 

Bijelo

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We want sniper Kakko in Ducks much expect Kakko big career in NHL at the team Ducks.

Or Finn skeptic doesn't think Finnish hockey players in the top hundred or top fifty or top twenty-five but I think Finnish success or is he Finn success instead or is he a Christian success instead?
 

lwvs84

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Focusing on main pts you raised [thank you, agree or disagree]...

1. Ducks don't need goalies. We have Gibson and Dostal. Ducks are fine in goal.
Nice to be alerted to emergence of Dostal. Gibson is functional placeholder but you could do better for less cost, and reasonable to postulate, as has been the case earlier this season, club like EDM would pay b'c they are thin there. So it may be reasonable to ask what scenario = best overall profit for Ducks.


2. Zegras is still an RFA after his 3 year bridge deal. That increases his value a great deal.
Agreed. But he is still gonna earn ballpark like I said above which is ballpark what Shesty would get. Shesty listed today at 28. You would add 3-4 low end and likely 6-ish on high end of term on his next deal. Honestly, how much dif is that for Zegras in the short term? Also see below next #.

3. Zegras can't walk away at the end of his current contract for the above reason.
True dat. But setting aside it is preferable to have/keep guys who want to be here, and whether or not he will let you know he is/is not a happy camper, one thing is not really disputable.
Yes, Zeg production will go up which is legit attractive; flip side of same coin is cost to sign [forget acquire, to sign] goes up also.

There is a big equation here: cost of player/production/term
Arguably, even if he ups his production, unless he turns into Matthews overnight, the loss of term here is the biggest factor.

Think of it this way based on the experience Rs had w/Buchnevich
I begged them to sell high while he had term
At that pt, his production was less than what it would be later, but THAT WAS IRRELEVANT AND SUBORDINATE AS TO VALUE, b'c he had more term and cost less at that earlier stage.
Rs did not listen to me.
They held on to him despite fact we were not then contenders, let alone serious ones.
And what did we get as a result of this approach? Bupkis.
Does that mean ANA should rush to deal Z now, or even deal him at all now. NO.
But it is fair to acknowledge the above suggest offers may be better now than later. [Presuming he is ordinary productive and does not turn into Nylander or Matthews].


4. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people here expect Zegras' production to go up. He missed training camp, was injured most of the season, and when he wasn't injured was adjusting to a new system and coach. I certainly expect his production to go up based on past performance and his overall potential.
Yes, I've covered that see above.

-----------

Getting back to currency, while Shesty arguably DOES match, he is still not a fit.
Fair 'nuf.

AFAIC, we are back to Othmannn + Berard ++ for Zegras +
I don't think Berard has the value you think he does to the Ducks. He's an undersized LHS forward and Othmann and him combined have a little better ppg pace that Zegras did when he was a year younger at the AHL. At the same age, Zegras was putting up almost the same ppg pace in the NHL as Othmann is at the AHL level. Ducks don't want to rebuild forever, and moving Zegras for guys that won't be close to his level next year (and maybe ever) is a huge setback. Would you move Kakko for a 40 point AHL guy if he was a year younger? Probably not. It's the same for Zegras.

The only way it would work is if you can package all of the assets you're willing to move for a guy that can contribute now at a similar level to Zegras that's a better fit for Anaheim, a guy that's younger that might be better, or a young defensive RHD. Your best bet is to get one guy to move for Zegras, Ducks are absolutely the last team that should be trading away quality for quantity. There is very little space in the bottom 6 in the NHL level or for prospects in the AHL level and there's more coming next year.
 

FoxysExpensiveNYDigs

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What does it matter? Anyone taken off the PP is going to have less production. That doesn't make them a 3rd liner. Kreider has 1 more goal total than him so Anaheim should expect top 6 player value
You can expect whatever you want. Rangers and other teams shouldn't overpay for a guy having an outlier season on a bad team with all the ice time.
 

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