Proposal: NYR-ANA

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

If the Rangers were the only team looking for a middle six center that might be a fair offer. Unfortunately for the Rangers there are several teams in the hunt and Henrique is the top center available. It is a sellers market and the price will reflect that.

Thats perfectly fine. That's all id give up if i were Drury.

 

[tomd]

Thats perfectly fine. That's all id give up if i were Drury.

I know.

 

[bernmeister]

I think Henrique at 50 % to rangers for a 2nd + prospect is prob not a bad move for rangers

Hell we could even throw in prospects we have that we might not keep going forward….

LA not being unreasonable but again, currency, not value.
Rs wasted futures, MUST NOT splurge youth anytime soon.
now again, can do youth for youth (not vet like Henr.).

Would like firm consensus on if
BMB + Vesey /ish
gets
Helleson + J. Per /ish

or to we need to modify that?

Id do like 2nd + Bryce McConnell-Barker/Zac Jones/Adam Sykora from a Rangers perspective.

NO
no adding vets for youth

 

[Static]

LA not being unreasonable but again, currency, not value.
Rs wasted futures, MUST NOT splurge youth anytime soon.
now again, can do youth for youth (not vet like Henr.).

Would like firm consensus on if
BMB + Vesey /ish
gets
Helleson + J. Per /ish

or to we need to modify that?



NO
no adding vets for youth

Why would Anaheim do this? There is zero upside for a rebuilding team to give away two guys they have spent time developing for....Jimmy vesey? What are we doing?

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

NO
no adding vets for youth

There's your opinion, then there's the real world in which Drury will absolutely add a proven vet for the playoff run.

 

[bernmeister]

Why would Anaheim do this? There is zero upside for a rebuilding team to give away two guys they have spent time developing for....Jimmy vesey? What are we doing?

BMB = potential fit 1-2 yrs hence when Strome is sold/phased out
I may be wrong but I think he has a bit more team control/cheaper short term cap hit than Helleson.

J. Per was a late 1st, can't stick w/Ducks atm
Vesey is high end 4th, reliable elsewhere in the lineup, dirt cheap thru next yr
only reason I prop this is b'c want to see if something around
J. Per for Barron [both late 20s 1st rounders] can then be follow up w/MON.

arguably there is upside to ANA here

There's your opinion, then there's the real world in which Drury will absolutely add a proven vet for the playoff run.

And in the real world exists the reality of what we should be doing -- which in this case is as per bern -- and what actually is done, which may be dif.

Rs will live w/the consequences and track record of STUPID, IDIOTIC utter and complete epic fail of win now suggests I am and would again be right on this particular op
no youth for vets
listen to bern drury, listen to bern

 

[lwvs84]

BMB = potential fit 1-2 yrs hence when Strome is sold/phased out
I may be wrong but I think he has a bit more team control/cheaper short term cap hit than Helleson.

J. Per was a late 1st, can't stick w/Ducks atm
Vesey is high end 4th, reliable elsewhere in the lineup, dirt cheap thru next yr
only reason I prop this is b'c want to see if something around
J. Per for Barron [both late 20s 1st rounders] can then be follow up w/MON.

arguably there is upside to ANA here


And in the real world exists the reality of what we should be doing -- which in this case is as per bern -- and what actually is done, which may be dif.

Rs will live w/the consequences and track record of STUPID, IDIOTIC utter and complete epic fail of win now suggests I am and would again be right on this particular op
no youth for vets
listen to bern drury, listen to bern

But Barron is much more appealing than what the Ducks are getting in your deal. If it was possible to get Barron for Perrault+, Ducks would just do that instead. I don't think Montreal would move him for Perrault, though unless he was just a throw in/add.

 

[bernmeister]

But Barron is much more appealing than what the Ducks are getting in your deal. If it was possible to get Barron for Perrault+, Ducks would just do that instead. I don't think Montreal would move him for Perrault, though unless he was just a throw in/add.

That is a separate deal Bar for J Per., I am expecting it would be a smaller component subset of a larger deal.
But even if we break it down to just that, Barron is not breaking Habs lineup now and is it clear he would be any better than Helleson at breaking it?

Rs only considering these moves b'c there are ridiculous thin at actual righty RD.

Other players may have mo upside, and that is not to be ignored, but same time, Vesey is a superior 4th line guy who is ok higher in the lineup. Other guys not a guarantee to make/perform at NHL level

 

[Kupo]

………..I’m so confused right now

 

[Static]

BMB = potential fit 1-2 yrs hence when Strome is sold/phased out
I may be wrong but I think he has a bit more team control/cheaper short term cap hit than Helleson.

J. Per was a late 1st, can't stick w/Ducks atm
Vesey is high end 4th, reliable elsewhere in the lineup, dirt cheap thru next yr
only reason I prop this is b'c want to see if something around
J. Per for Barron [both late 20s 1st rounders] can then be follow up w/MON.

arguably there is upside to ANA here


And in the real world exists the reality of what we should be doing -- which in this case is as per bern -- and what actually is done, which may be dif.

Rs will live w/the consequences and track record of STUPID, IDIOTIC utter and complete epic fail of win now suggests I am and would again be right on this particular op
no youth for vets
listen to bern drury, listen to bern

A team full of fourth liners bereft of RH D and goal scorers trades a RH D and goal scoring prospect for a fourth liner? And there's upside to this? Come on.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

………..I’m so confused right now

What’s confusing?

Berns cookin right now and we’re all here for it

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

What’s confusing?

Berns cookin right now and we’re all here for it

Cooking a shit sandwich

 

[bernmeister]

………..I’m so confused right now

When I get a chance, I'll have Vinny Barbarino, and Sr.Mary Ignatius, explain it for you

 

[bernmeister]

A team full of fourth liners bereft of RH D and goal scorers trades a RH D and goal scoring prospect for a fourth liner? And there's upside to this? Come on.

1. Apparently those 4th liners are not good.
Vesey is high end 4th line, decent/useful elsewhere.

2. The 2 coming to NY are prospects who have not cracked ANA lineup. so .. perspective.

3. BMB I believe is more recently drafted. Too busy to check. If correct that means even if this coke for pepsi, he has more cost control. Arguably that is not huge upside, but it IS upside. BMB also possible pivot replacement for Strome at low cost.

What’s confusing?

Berns cookin right now and we’re all here for it

the sublime ...

Cooking a shit sandwich

... and the ridiculous

 

[TGWL]

………..I’m so confused right now

This morning there were a few pages since I last checked this thread. I was also confused... I'm not sure what the discussion is anymore.

 

[lwvs84]

That is a separate deal Bar for J Per., I am expecting it would be a smaller component subset of a larger deal.
But even if we break it down to just that, Barron is not breaking Habs lineup now and is it clear he would be any better than Helleson at breaking it?

Rs only considering these moves b'c there are ridiculous thin at actual righty RD.

Other players may have mo upside, and that is not to be ignored, but same time, Vesey is a superior 4th line guy who is ok higher in the lineup. Other guys not a guarantee to make/perform at NHL level

The only guarantee the Ducks have on the right side at the moment is probably Luneau. There are a lot of projects and some potential players, but no one that has proved they deserve a spot in the NHL. Helleson is hurt and hasn't looked great in the AHL, but he actually looked ok in the NHL last year though (in limited time). Plus you're wanting us to move Helleson in the deal which is pretty much our only RHD depth in a pro league outside of Luneau.

And you say the Rangers (a contender) shouldn't trade youth for vets who are useful, then say that Perrault (21 year old) and Helleson (22) should be moved for Vesey (30 year old 4th liner). If Anaheim is ready to move on from Helleson, a 1 for 1 of him for BMB might work (don't know too much about him), but I doubt Perrault is going to be moved. He feels like a guy that should be a 3rd wheel on a line and has been asked to carry a line in San Diego. I'd like to see him with two of our NHL players, especially if the Ducks run 3 scoring lines (if they're ever healthy).

 

[FiveTacos]

BMB = potential fit 1-2 yrs hence when Strome is sold/phased out

Call me crazy, but I don't think "eventual replacement for Strome" is high on the priority list for the Ducks right now. Hell, if they could dump Strome and his contract today they probably would.

 

[bernmeister]

The only guarantee the Ducks have on the right side at the moment is probably Luneau. There are a lot of projects and some potential players, but no one that has proved they deserve a spot in the NHL. Helleson is hurt and hasn't looked great in the AHL, but he actually looked ok in the NHL last year though (in limited time). Plus you're wanting us to move Helleson in the deal which is pretty much our only RHD depth in a pro league outside of Luneau.

And you say the Rangers (a contender) shouldn't trade youth for vets who are useful, then say that Perrault (21 year old) and Helleson (22) should be moved for Vesey (30 year old 4th liner). If Anaheim is ready to move on from Helleson, a 1 for 1 of him for BMB might work (don't know too much about him), but I doubt Perrault is going to be moved. He feels like a guy that should be a 3rd wheel on a line and has been asked to carry a line in San Diego. I'd like to see him with two of our NHL players, especially if the Ducks run 3 scoring lines (if they're ever healthy).

BMB for Helleson is youth for youth so no issue there

earlier a ducks fan [sorry, off top of head I forgot who] said maybe time to move on from J. Per.
let's be clear
J. Per is a ?
Vesey is older, but he is known commodity for what he is

Did ducks do stupid thing Rs did w/excessive rentals, and as a result are thin on youth? I could be wrong but I don't see that.
So if you have sufficient/surplus youth, a useful vet who i only 800k thru next season may be good for ANA at this time.

But if you honestly think not so, or J. Per is gonna turn it around overnight, then fine.
Maybe Rs can deal Vesey as core of a deal for Barron

 

[bernmeister]

Call me crazy, but I don't think "eventual replacement for Strome" is high on the priority list for the Ducks right now. Hell, if they could dump Strome and his contract today they probably would.

Not saying it is.
Esp if they deal Henr to somebody having Strome now means a bonafide pivot is available. But not negative to swap an underperforming comparable prospect for BMB who lines up as a possible Strome replacement in 1-2 yrs. If you guys think it makes sense you have a good enuf offer/reason to deal him sooner than later, BMB will compete for any opening later.

 

[lwvs84]

BMB for Helleson is youth for youth so no issue there

earlier a ducks fan [sorry, off top of head I forgot who] said maybe time to move on from J. Per.
let's be clear
J. Per is a ?
Vesey is older, but he is known commodity for what he is

Did ducks do stupid thing Rs did w/excessive rentals, and as a result are thin on youth? I could be wrong but I don't see that.
So if you have sufficient/surplus youth, a useful vet who i only 800k thru next season may be good for ANA at this time.

But if you honestly think not so, or J. Per is gonna turn it around overnight, then fine.
Maybe Rs can deal Vesey as core of a deal for Barron

Ducks aren't thin on youth, but also no reason to give up on a 21 year old that's been put in a bad position for a 30 year old 4th liner. The 4th line isn't the problem for the Ducks, it's staying healthy and the kids being able to develop chemistry. Sounds like the Ducks won't have a single game this season with the entire top 6 playing a game, but in pre-season I'm hoping we see McTavish/Carlsson/Zegras down the middle and Perrault given a chance with Z and a LW (Killorn?). That would push Lundestrom down to the 4th line (even less reason to trade for a 4th liner). With adding Gauthier at the end of the season, Anaheim could have the depth to run 3 dangerous lines.

 

[bernmeister]

Ducks aren't thin on youth, but also no reason to give up on a 21 year old that's been put in a bad position for a 30 year old 4th liner. The 4th line isn't the problem for the Ducks, it's staying healthy and the kids being able to develop chemistry. Sounds like the Ducks won't have a single game this season with the entire top 6 playing a game, but in pre-season I'm hoping we see McTavish/Carlsson/Zegras down the middle and Perrault given a chance with Z and a LW (Killorn?). That would push Lundestrom down to the 4th line (even less reason to trade for a 4th liner). With adding Gauthier at the end of the season, Anaheim could have the depth to run 3 dangerous lines.

I'm working off what I'm hearing. I am not saying it is gospel, only what is getting around. Per Elliotte, ducks are w/in reason looking for a vet or 2 to help the kids.
Elliotte may be wrong, wont be first time
but
if true you could do worse than Vesey 1 yr 800k

but again, not a big whoop if most of yr base feels same as you.

 

[Ducks]

Perrault has shown potential when he hasn't been injured. The injuries have delayed his development, but I doubt the Ducks are ready to give up on him.

 

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

This morning there were a few pages since I last checked this thread. I was also confused... I'm not sure what the discussion is anymore.

Bern has hijacked the thread. Nothing to be confused about. Even with him on ignore, it can still make for confusing/tedious reading.

 

[FiveTacos]

The 4th line isn't the problem for the Ducks, it's staying healthy and the kids being able to develop chemistry.

Having good 3rd and 4th liners is never a problem for even terrible teams. The problem with terrible teams is those 3rd and 4th liners are playing in the top 6 for them. But offering more of what they already have doesn't fix their real problems. It's like offering good 3rd pairing guys to bad or rebuilding teams, as if that's what they need ... they already HAVE good 3rd pairing guys, the problem is those guys are playing top 4 minutes and running the PP and PK units for those teams.

 

[lwvs84]

I'm working off what I'm hearing. I am not saying it is gospel, only what is getting around. Per Elliotte, ducks are w/in reason looking for a vet or 2 to help the kids.
Elliotte may be wrong, wont be first time
but
if true you could do worse than Vesey 1 yr 800k

but again, not a big whoop if most of yr base feels same as you.

Ducks might be looking for vets, but more of a top 6 guy or a cap casualty that they can get cheap (think Toews trade to Avs). To make it simple, here's the what the Ducks need and what has been said by legitimate sources (that I can remember):
- Verbeek has taken calls on Zegras but none of the teams can offer what he wants. There are only specific things he'll move Zegras for, and I doubt the Rangers have that (Othmann would not be a starting point).
- Vatrano can be had but the asking price is "a boat load"
- Ducks do not need quantity, the bottom 6 is full, bottom 4 D is full, and there are a ton of prospects in and coming to San Diego. Ducks may actually need to trade quantity for a higher quality prospect.
- Ducks needs are a top 6 forward (RW/RHS preferable) and defensive RD.
- Ducks are NOT looking to trade prospects for players that won't contribute post-rebuild or for guys who are redundant. They need guys that will push players down into spots they should be in.
- Ducks are not desperate to shed cap, they won't pay someone to take a contract. Just because they have cap space doesn't mean they'll give it away cheap for cap dumps either.
- Ducks are looking for hockey trades where possible, not just selling players for futures (not counting upcoming FA's like Henrique).
- Ducks are willing to wait for future picks for a better deal... like a 2025 1st and a 2024 3rd would be better than a 2024 1st (I think I remember that from something).
- The system lacks a legit top pairing RHD... that's pretty much it (Luneau might get there, but is more likely a middle pair guy).
- Ducks have too many LHD... Fowler (short term), Minty, LaCombe, Vaakananen, Zellweger have all shown they are NHL ready or are close.

Having good 3rd and 4th liners is never a problem for even terrible teams. The problem with terrible teams is those 3rd and 4th liners are playing in the top 6 for them. But offering more of what they already have doesn't fix their real problems. It's like offering good 3rd pairing guys to bad or rebuilding teams, as if that's what they need ... they already HAVE good 3rd pairing guys, the problem is those guys are playing top 4 minutes and running the PP and PK units for those teams.

Yeah, the Ducks have a lot of good 4th liners and 3rd pair guys... the problem is some are playing in the top 9 or top 4. Hopefully that fixes itself as young guys start forcing people down the lineup and the team gets healthy next season.