Proposal: NYR-ANA

[TGWL]

Vatrano has plenty of flaws, and is getting favorable powerplay time which he won’t likely get on a contender.


Supposedly ducks anre asking for 2nd +3rd and an extra 3rd for retention(assuming 50%)

I'm ok with 2nd/3rds/prospects who are blocked and will never have a chance here.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I hear you
I am open to learning more about Tracey and other chips to find best combos for deals.

But KK has PROBABLY gotta be considered off the table.
Even for Zegras.

That’s fair and just like rangers fans wouldn’t want to pay the price for Vatrano/Henrique duo…. Not sure duck fans would want to pay the price rangers fans would want for kakko.

I’d like kakko as a buy low option, and see if he can’t develop in Anaheim(maybe have teemu work with him)

 

[Guyute]

you’re expecting way too much for a rental in Henrique. Vatrano doesn’t move the needle much for the Rangers as much of his production is on the PP and he won’t get any PP time on the Rangers.

 

[Lion Hound]

Henrique (-50%) + Vatrano

for

Kakko + 2024 2nd + 2025 1st

Thats a NO from NYR. No knock on the Duck players. Henrique is highly sought after. Vatrano had a good run with NYR last trip around the sun. with that said, trading a 23 yr old pending RFA, who is a #2 OA pick and a major part of your rebuild for an expiring asset, and a career journeyman who is already 29 is just terrible asset management.

Kakko isnt an untouchable player. But if your moving a protected asset you dont do it for a Rental, and an NHL Journeyman with 1 year left on his contract.

Rangers 3rd line has been tremendous and it's led by #24. The team is 29-7-2 W/Kakko in the lineup and 11-10-1 W/Out Kakko in the lineup.

Henrique is an expiring asset. Rangers don't have the room to keep him. So 20 games plus playoffs for him.

Vatrano is 29. Has 1 more year on contract. 11 of his 29 goals are on the PP this year. He's not going to get PP1 for NYR like he has with the Ducks. His digits are inflated. Yes he could play on the top line with Zbad and Kreider but he's not going to get on PP1.

So not knocking the Duck players. That's just really bad asset mismanagement from NYR. And...lets face it. The last two times they traded young protected assets prematurely it really came back to bite them in the ass. JT Miller trade, and Buchnevich trade.

Miller as a throw in in the McDonough trade. At the time, Miller too was a protected asset. He was only 22, and by the numbers was doing similar to what Kakko was doing. He too was buried on an NYR depth chart, same as Kakko. Miller went onto become one of the top 10 best centers in the game today.

Buchenvich was moved for Blais. At the time i think he was about 23 or 24. He was already a perfect fit with Kredier and Zbad. He went on to become a tremendous player for the Blues and a player that would have been a perfect fit for the NYR org being short on RW.

Drury has to be smarter than that. If not, he should be fired immediately.

 

[TGWL]

If that is true (and it might be) then the Rangers are in the same boat as teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, and LA. Not much to look forward to except a rebuild/retool in a couple of years.

I think that's why you see such a split on those who view the young players as must keep, or need to be given more of a role, and those that view this team being carried by 4 players and need help in their current shot at the cup. When Panarin is gone and Kreider/Zibanejad continue to age, the team will obviously need a retool, or a high priced UFA if one becomes available.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Right, cuz why would you be interested in 30+ goals/year?

Because we have had Vatrano before. He won't get the playing time here he gets in Anaheim. Glad he's having a great year and I'm sure he will be a good add for another team.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

you’re expecting way too much for a rental in Henrique. Vatrano doesn’t move the needle much for the Rangers as much of his production is on the PP and he won’t get any PP time on the Rangers.

What should we expect for Henrique?

If you break that trade down it was
Henrique for 2nd
Vatrano for 1st
Kakko making up the difference in value

kakko value based on production is not much, but maybe his value is higher than that to the rangers.

But a 2nd + is too high of expectations?

 

[bernmeister]

I have to pass. I look at this team and I don't think the additions will make us that much better if you consider the cost. The way Mikka and Kreider play together right now, I fear the overpay for a winger to pair them with. The 1st for a Henrique to be a 3c rental is too expensive for me.

This, and understand something peeps....

Some time ago I said we should experiment w/Boo Nieves as a pivot for Kreid + Zib at RW. Idea was a driver of player Kreider + a facilitator Nieves + a scorer Zib.
I said TRY it, not get married to it, TRY it.
Most disagreed politely as they were not optimistic of success, even tho I had emphasized "try".

We NOW see that Kreid - Zib is consistently inconsistent, whether Zib = pivot or RW.
This has prompted some to call for Zib to be traded [not happening, ironclad nmc], to add a RW, or even a quality pivot [in absence of which, try KK/LaF at C].

We need to first see IF we can solve the mystery and figure out what combo of players/other player would best work to getting Kreid + Zib consistently productive.
We need to figure that out,
and we MUST do that first before spending assets on rentals

 

[UnSandvich]

Because the Ducks have 6 picks in the first three rounds this year. Bunching up picks has its limits, the Ducks aren't exactly needing to quickly restock a barren system.



And because of their pick surplus this year they can probably kick a 3rd or even a 2nd back the other way in the right deal.

It's always scary to part with 1sts for rentals, but a 1st for a rental plus a 2nd-4th round pick becomes more like an early trade up/trade down draft day deal. Frankly they should happen more often than they do.



As a fan of both teams, I'll say when it comes to Kakko the thinking is much like Ducks fans with Zegras ... If they're to be moved it should be with something else for an upgrade, as opposed to being parted out. Obviously Kakko+ isn't going to get you what Zegras+ could, but the principle is the same.

As for picks, if I'm the Rangers I'm not holding onto them like gold. But then I tend to side with the folks who think late 1sts are overrated. You can always get them back in later drafts after your window starts closing by selling off your older vets as rentals. I look at those late 1sts as just buying on credit, spend a '25 1st for help now, when it's time to rebuild you get that pick back as a seller a few years later. Only time to keep them as a contender is in an unusually strong draft like last year or 03.

Late firsts may be overrated, but if you look at the Rangers drafting since the 2009 draft with Kreider, the Rangers have actually been pretty successful in the 2nd half of the first round.

2009- Kreider
2011- JT Miller (15)
2012- Brady Skjei (28)
2017- Filip Chytil (21)
2018- K'Andre Miller (22), Nils Lundkvist (28)
2020- Braden Schneider (19)
2021- Brennan Othmann (21)
2023- Gabe Perreault (23)|

Nils Lundkvist has been arguably the worst of those, and he still fetched a 1st

 

[WhatTheDuck]

you’re expecting way too much for a rental in Henrique. Vatrano doesn’t move the needle much for the Rangers as much of his production is on the PP and he won’t get any PP time on the Rangers.

Ducks fans have pretty much all been suggesting a late first and maybe a small add for Henrique at 50%. That's really not unreasonable at all considering the current rental market, where a similar or arguably lesser center in Monahan returned just that. But there are teams who would want Henrique as a 2C and not a 3C, stands to reason they are likely willing to pay more than the Rangers.

If you are responding to the OP offer, you are brushing over the fact that it also includes another player who has 29 goals this season and another year left on a reasonable contract.

 

[bernmeister]

Because the Ducks have 6 picks in the first three rounds this year. Bunching up picks has its limits, the Ducks aren't exactly needing to quickly restock a barren system.



And because of their pick surplus this year they can probably kick a 3rd or even a 2nd back the other way in the right deal.

It's always scary to part with 1sts for rentals, but a 1st for a rental plus a 2nd-4th round pick becomes more like an early trade up/trade down draft day deal. Frankly they should happen more often than they do.



As a fan of both teams, I'll say when it comes to Kakko the thinking is much like Ducks fans with Zegras ... If they're to be moved it should be with something else for an upgrade, as opposed to being parted out. Obviously Kakko+ isn't going to get you what Zegras+ could, but the principle is the same.

As for picks, if I'm the Rangers I'm not holding onto them like gold. But then I tend to side with the folks who think late 1sts are overrated. You can always get them back in later drafts after your window starts closing by selling off your older vets as rentals. I look at those late 1sts as just buying on credit, spend a '25 1st for help now, when it's time to rebuild you get that pick back as a seller a few years later. Only time to keep them as a contender is in an unusually strong draft like last year or 03.

I was not aware of the bold.

Maybe, if ANA is interested in quality Ws with which to build/try as foundation pieces, and has surplus of picks,
MAYBE
instead of Kakko who we are 99+% sure to keep

instead of Zegras, who I would like to take a pass at if he is still leaning to coming back east in 2-ish yrs,
MAYBE
We can sell you Othmann for a premium?

Give me an overpay package that makes you wince but can live with
1st + Vats = stopgap thru next season + Helleson ++
for
Othmann + ?????

 

[bernmeister]

Ducks fans have pretty much all been suggesting a late first and maybe a small add for Henrique at 50%. That's really not unreasonable at all considering the current rental market, where a similar or arguably lesser center in Monahan returned just that. But there are teams who would want Henrique as a 2C and not a 3C, stands to reason they are likely willing to pay more than the Rangers.

If you are responding to the OP offer, you are brushing over the fact that it also includes another player who has 29 goals this season and another year left on a reasonable contract.

1. Your ask is not unreasonable.
Howev, that is notwithstanding Monahan was crazy ridiculous overpay that should not have been made.
Just b'c somebody else jumped out a window means I will.

The prob w/OP is currency is not a fit for Rs.
Room to negotiate in good faith as to value

 

[ohcomeonref]

Kakko put up 37 even strength points last year as a 21/22 year old. Vatrano has never scored 37 ES points in a season, and Henrique has only done it once (almost 15 years ago). If Kakko is a bust, what does that make Vatrano and Henrique?

Well, they're certainly not 2nd-overalls getting their tires pumped for scoring 37 points.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I was not aware of the bold.

Maybe, if ANA is interested in quality Ws with which to build/try as foundation pieces, and has surplus of picks,
MAYBE
instead of Kakko who we are 99+% sure to keep

instead of Zegras, who I would like to take a pass at if he is still leaning to coming back east in 2-ish yrs,
MAYBE
We can sell you Othmann for a premium?

Give me an overpay package that makes you wince but can live with
1st + Vats = stopgap thru next season + Helleson ++
for
Othmann + ?????

That 1st would have to be a later first acquired in a Henrique deal or something, the Ducks own 1st would not be on the table, likely a top 3-5 pick. Anaheim is positioned to grab a potential stud D with that pick, which is more much needed than Othmann when you look at their young core.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

This, and understand something peeps....

Some time ago I said we should experiment w/Boo Nieves as a pivot for Kreid + Zib at RW. Idea was a driver of player Kreider + a facilitator Nieves + a scorer Zib.
I said TRY it, not get married to it, TRY it.
Most disagreed politely as they were not optimistic of success, even tho I had emphasized "try".

We NOW see that Kreid - Zib is consistently inconsistent, whether Zib = pivot or RW.
This has prompted some to call for Zib to be traded [not happening, ironclad nmc], to add a RW, or even a quality pivot [in absence of which, try KK/LaF at C].

We need to first see IF we can solve the mystery and figure out what combo of players/other player would best work to getting Kreid + Zib consistently productive.
We need to figure that out,
and we MUST do that first before spending assets on rentals

Long live Boo Nieves

 

[bernmeister]

That 1st would have to be a later first acquired in a Henrique deal or something, the Ducks own 1st would not be on the table, likely a top 3-5 pick. Anaheim is positioned to grab a potential stud D with that pick, which is more much needed than Othmann when you look at their young core.

Yeah, didn't take the time for due diligence to identify, just went w/you have multiple 1sts and I presumed 1 of them might be a fit.
Obv no one looking at yr lotto pick for Othmann.

But keep at it
In theory if you like Oth enuf, we may have sufficiently good pieces mutually acceptable for deal.

 

[FiveTacos]

Late firsts may be overrated, but if you look at the Rangers drafting since the 2009 draft with Kreider, the Rangers have actually been pretty successful in the 2nd half of the first round.

2009- Kreider
2011- JT Miller (15)
2012- Brady Skjei (28)
2017- Filip Chytil (21)
2018- K'Andre Miller (22), Nils Lundkvist (28)
2020- Braden Schneider (19)
2021- Brennan Othmann (21)
2023- Gabe Perreault (23)|

Nils Lundkvist has been arguably the worst of those, and he still fetched a 1st

That's fair, and maybe that's why a Rangers team might hang onto their picks.

The value to the team trading FOR the Rangers' pick isn't likely to be as high though.

I will also say though that I also don't tend to believe in big deadline splashes either, except to fix an obvious problem, or to buy injury insurance. I think that's the main appeal of Henrique ... He can be a good 3c or fill in at multiple positions in the top 6 for a week if needed. And sometimes that week in the playoffs is what gets you through. No, he's not a PP1 stud, but if you have to it's not like sticking a stone handed grinder out there either, he can actually make some plays.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

I was not aware of the bold.

Maybe, if ANA is interested in quality Ws with which to build/try as foundation pieces, and has surplus of picks,
MAYBE
instead of Kakko who we are 99+% sure to keep

instead of Zegras, who I would like to take a pass at if he is still leaning to coming back east in 2-ish yrs,
MAYBE
We can sell you Othmann for a premium?

Give me an overpay package that makes you wince but can live with
1st + Vats = stopgap thru next season + Helleson ++
for
Othmann + ?????

Rangers management has made it known Perrault and Othmann are unavailable

 

[bernmeister]

Long live Boo Nieves

yes, and w/no help either from so called truthers who besmirch the actual facts as I noted

Rangers management has made it known Perrault and Othmann are unavailable

Yes, and won't be the first or last time they were stupid and did not listen to bern.

They should not be available in a typical deal
Exception to the rule, youth for correct currency youth, that is dif

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

yes, and w/no help either from so called truthers who besmirch the actual facts as I noted


Yes, and won't be the first or last time they were stupid and did not listen to bern.

They should not be available in a typical deal
Exception to the rule, youth for correct currency youth, that is dif

The actual fact is Boo Nieves sucked.

 

[bernmeister]

The actual fact is Boo Nieves sucked.

The actual fact is he never got a chance esp as pivot betw Kreider + Zib as I specified.
THAT is the actual fact.
He wound up w/something like 4 concussions we know of
So take your derisive digs and put them where the sun don't shine

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

The actual fact is he never got a chance esp as pivot betw Kreider + Zib as I specified.
THAT is the actual fact.
He wound up w/something like 4 concussions we know of
So take your derisive digs and put them where the sun don't shine

19 points in 76 career games. Never did anything to warrant a chance with top 6 talent.

 

[Guyute]

What should we expect for Henrique?

If you break that trade down it was
Henrique for 2nd
Vatrano for 1st
Kakko making up the difference in value

kakko value based on production is not much, but maybe his value is higher than that to the rangers.

But a 2nd + is too high of expectations?

Vatrano for a 1st is fair

Henrique for a 2nd is fair

50% retention for 3 months of Henrique’s salary should be worth a 3rd. Kakko ought to have mid-1st round value.

There’s no way you’re getting Kakko for that package, I’m sorry.

 

[pld459666]

I know this is HF but I'm surprised by the lack of urgency amongst Ranger fans...their top players are all over 30 and their window will close in probably 2 years or maybe 3. If there was ever a year to "go for it" this seems like the one given that no team looks head and shoulders above the pack.

You can be urgent and not make bad trades.

You don't have to be urgent AND make a bad trade.

This deal would be a bad trade for the Rangers.

Right, cuz why would you be interested in 30+ goals/year?

Situational context is relevant

 

[FiveTacos]

I was not aware of the bold.

Besides their own picks (obviously high in each round) the Ducks have the B's 2nd (late), SJ's 3rd (high), and Pit's 3rd (mid). So we're probably talking about 6 picks in the top 80 or so.

I suspect they may be totally fine with and maybe even prefer future picks in exchange for their rentals. No one would turn down a late 1st of course, but proposals sending late 2nds or 3rds in this draft Anaheim's way .... They might do it, but it's probably not as tempting as it normally would be.

Maybe, if ANA is interested in quality Ws with which to build/try as foundation pieces, and has surplus of picks,
MAYBE
instead of Kakko who we are 99+% sure to keep

I could see Kakko going in the off-season in a hockey trade if they really don't think he's likely to become a top 6 guy. He's currently useful to the Rangers though, and I doubt there's an immediate upgrade to be had. But it does not make sense to move him for a rental or for futures now.