Proposal: NJD-MTL-CGY @ Draft

[Puckclektr]

The Predators were reportedly asking for two 1sts + a prospect - so what you'd be paying in this deal + your 2025 1st ... not to say that he isn't significantly better, but that is a notable jump in price.

They also would probably want Mercer - not Holtz.

I seem to remember Corey Schneider traded for tenth overall. Nashville may ask for two firsts and mercer but they won’t get it. Especially when one of them is 11-15 range.

 

[Bond]

Montreal gets the best value of any team in this trade lol.
Likely would be Flames trade Markstrom at 50% and Coronato to get two late 1sts.
One of the least balanced trade proposals in a while.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

The Predators were reportedly asking for two 1sts + a prospect - so what you'd be paying in this deal + your 2025 1st ... not to say that he isn't significantly better, but that is a notable jump in price.

They also would probably want Mercer - not Holtz.

Devils were reportedly asking for a 1st and a decent prospect for Toffoli and we all know how that turned out.
Mercer doesn't go in a deal for Markstrom, maybe he does for Saros, but even that is questionable.

The ask isn't the same as the value, it's how negotiations usually work.

 

[Bond]

Devils were reportedly asking for a 1st and a decent prospect for Toffoli and we all know how that turned out.
Mercer doesn't go in a deal for Markstrom, maybe he does for Saros, but even that is questionable.

The ask isn't the same as the value, it's how negotiations usually work.

Yeah, the only way I see Mercer going back in a Markstrom trade is if he is at 50% and it's one for one. Even then I'm expecting Holtz or the 24 1st as the centerpiece.

 

[InfinityIggy]

This is awful for Calgary.

 

[madmike77]

No way the Flames do that deal. The 1st you have the Flames getting back will in all likelihood be Florida’s 1st, which won’t be a great pick. It makes more sense for the Flames to just keep Coronato.

Unless Florida finishes in the bottom 10 next year (or the Flames somehow finish ahead of Florida), the Flames keep their own 2025 and the Habs get Florida’s 2025 1st.

The bottom line is it’s very unlikely the Habs will get the Flames natural pick and much more likely they’ll get Florida’s.

 

[crackdown44]

Montreal should be incentivized not to help Calgary move Markstrom. If he stays in Calgary it increases their chances of finishing outside the bottom 10 next year which gives the habs a better pick

They’d do this deal though because it’s insanely weighted in their favour. Calgary and NJ don’t need Montreal if they want to revisit a Markstrom deal in the summer

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Montreal just comes into a deal that doesn't need them, gives up 2 1sts and somehow walks away with 3? Wtf is this

 

[Ford Prefect]

This trade can't happen. Montreal has already used all three of its retention slots. They don't get the retention slot for Edmundson until the new league year, which is on July 1.

 

[Mackiaveli]

Montreal just comes into a deal that doesn't need them, gives up 2 1sts and somehow walks away with 3? Wtf is this

Yeah I should remove Coronato/lower it to a 2nd or a lower prospect, but I don't believe in editing trade posts because then it makes all the other posts make no sense so I am just leaving it.

I think my thinking behind MTL being involved is two-fold

1) They can act as a broker who is willing to eat a few million for two full seasons on an asset that wasn't theirs to begin with (how many teams would do this and what would the cost be?)

2) They can provide multiple draft picks, including CGY's native 1st. Many Flames fans have mentioned that it is likely to be Florida's pick, but nobody has been able to clarify to me how the conditions work.

To my knowledge, if Florida is a lottery team (you get lottery balls for missing the playoffs and can jump up to 10 spots so even missing the playoffs at 16 counts as a 'lottery pick') then the CGY 2025 1st is the Habs UNLESS it is 1OA - in that case, 2-10OA could still be forfeit so long as Florida misses the playoffs ... Sure, they probably won't, but if they did, that changes this deal tremendously. Having that asset locked in allows the Flames to commit to a rebuild without fear of a top 5 pick being pulled from them.

If this is not true, then the Habs have no reason to be apart of this deal and that is just me misunderstanding how the terms of the pick exchange work. If it is true, then the Devils are paying a premium, but getting a 75% retained all-star goalie for two years, and the Flames are freeing themselves of all the stipulations that could in a not-so-insane scenario see a top 5 pick change hands next draft. Again, Coronato is probably still too much to ask especially for a rebuilding team so maybe a 2nd or something makes more sense - but that was my logic at least.

 

[crazyfisherman]

Yeah I should remove Coronato/lower it to a 2nd or a lower prospect, but I don't believe in editing trade posts because then it makes all the other posts make no sense so I am just leaving it.

I think my thinking behind MTL being involved is two-fold

1) They can act as a broker who is willing to eat a few million for two full seasons on an asset that wasn't theirs to begin with (how many teams would do this and what would the cost be?)

2) They can provide multiple draft picks, including CGY's native 1st. Many Flames fans have mentioned that it is likely to be Florida's pick, but nobody has been able to clarify to me how the conditions work.

To my knowledge, if Florida is a lottery team (you get lottery balls for missing the playoffs and can jump up to 10 spots so even missing the playoffs at 16 counts as a 'lottery pick') then the CGY 2025 1st is the Habs UNLESS it is 1OA - in that case, 2-10OA could still be forfeit so long as Florida misses the playoffs ... Sure, they probably won't, but if they did, that changes this deal tremendously. Having that asset locked in allows the Flames to commit to a rebuild without fear of a top 5 pick being pulled from them.

If this is not true, then the Habs have no reason to be apart of this deal and that is just me misunderstanding how the terms of the pick exchange work. If it is true, then the Devils are paying a premium, but getting a 75% retained all-star goalie for two years, and the Flames are freeing themselves of all the stipulations that could in a not-so-insane scenario see a top 5 pick change hands next draft. Again, Coronato is probably still too much to ask especially for a rebuilding team so maybe a 2nd or something makes more sense - but that was my logic at least.

MTL gets calgary pick if calgary drafts outside top 10 and florida makes the playoff. If calgary is in top 10 and florida makes the playoffs then MTL gets florida 1st. Which do you think is most likely gonna happen.

 

[pth2]

At first glance, it feels like Montreal's only part of this because they get fantastic value and don't need to be involved.

I don't see the point either. They *are* giving up 2 firsts, then getting a first and a couple of promising young players back. This only works if Calgary values getting their own pick back more than they should, really.

Timing would be problematic, as well - Montreal can't retain on any more contracts until July 1st, by then the 2024 draft is done.

 

[pth2]

2) They can provide multiple draft picks, including CGY's native 1st. Many Flames fans have mentioned that it is likely to be Florida's pick, but nobody has been able to clarify to me how the conditions work.

To my knowledge, if Florida is a lottery team (you get lottery balls for missing the playoffs and can jump up to 10 spots so even missing the playoffs at 16 counts as a 'lottery pick') then the CGY 2025 1st is the Habs UNLESS it is 1OA - in that case, 2-10OA could still be forfeit so long as Florida misses the playoffs ... Sure, they probably won't, but if they did, that changes this deal tremendously. Having that asset locked in allows the Flames to commit to a rebuild without fear of a top 5 pick being pulled from them.

If this is not true, then the Habs have no reason to be apart of this deal and that is just me misunderstanding how the terms of the pick exchange work. If it is true, then the Devils are paying a premium, but getting a 75% retained all-star goalie for two years, and the Flames are freeing themselves of all the stipulations that could in a not-so-insane scenario see a top 5 pick change hands next draft. Again, Coronato is probably still too much to ask especially for a rebuilding team so maybe a 2nd or something makes more sense - but that was my logic at least.

We can phrase this simply: the only way Montreal gets a top-10 pick is if both Florida and Calgary's picks are top-10, which seems highly unlikely.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I don't see the point either. They *are* giving up 2 firsts, then getting a first and a couple of promising young players back. This only works if Calgary values getting their own pick back more than they should, really.

Timing would be problematic, as well - Montreal can't retain on any more contracts until July 1st, by then the 2024 draft is done.

I mean, they'd be getting a good 1st and two recent top-15 picks. While giving up a late 1st, a 1st that likely isn't better than the one they're getting and a replaceable prospect. That's more than worth the retention.

Does it matter that Coronato doesn't make a lot of sense for Montreal? Not really.

And the timing isn't the issue from a Montreal POV, its that they don't serve a purpose here other than to hose the other teams.

 

[gach]

Imagine a fan of one team on HF proposing a trade and his /her team gets the best in the deal

 

[Mackiaveli]

We can phrase this simply: the only way Montreal gets a top-10 pick is if both Florida and Calgary's picks are top-10, which seems highly unlikely.

*Conditions: If the 2025 1st RD pick that Florida sent to Calgary is a lottery pick resulting in Calgary receiving Florida's 2026 1st RD pick instead,

Lottery pick meaning 'non-playoff' not Top 10 - You can win the lottery @ 16 - screenshot of Tankathon for reference.

In this example, STL jumped 10 spots from 13->3.

So if the Panthers miss the playoffs, they could choose to keep the pick if they wanted.

This means, if the Panthers keep their pick (meaning the Flames get the 2026 1st instead of the 2025 1st) the Flames have to give Montreal their 1st (2025) UNLESS it is the 1st overall pick.

If the Panthers trade their 2025 1st (most likely because the Panthers should be a dominant team again next season) to CGY, then the Habs get the lower of the two picks effectively.

 

[Bond]

So if the Panthers miss the playoffs, they could choose to keep the pick if they wanted.

This means, if the Panthers keep their pick (meaning the Flames get the 2026 1st instead of the 2025 1st) the Flames have to give Montreal their 1st (2025) UNLESS it is the 1st overall pick.

If the Panthers trade their 2025 1st (most likely because the Panthers should be a dominant team again next season) to CGY, then the Habs get the lower of the two picks effectively.

The Panther's don't have a choice. The pick either transfers or it doesn't and they can't trade their 25 1st again right now.

The conditions on the pick aren't if it is a lottery pick, it is if it a top ten pick post lottery. So the Flames would be giving crazy value to the Habs for the small chance that the Florida isn't a playoff team and then hits the .5% to 2% chance that Florida wins the lottery.

 

[Boondock]

Yeah I should remove Coronato/lower it to a 2nd or a lower prospect, but I don't believe in editing trade posts because then it makes all the other posts make no sense so I am just leaving it.

I think my thinking behind MTL being involved is two-fold

1) They can act as a broker who is willing to eat a few million for two full seasons on an asset that wasn't theirs to begin with (how many teams would do this and what would the cost be?)

2) They can provide multiple draft picks, including CGY's native 1st. Many Flames fans have mentioned that it is likely to be Florida's pick, but nobody has been able to clarify to me how the conditions work.

To my knowledge, if Florida is a lottery team (you get lottery balls for missing the playoffs and can jump up to 10 spots so even missing the playoffs at 16 counts as a 'lottery pick') then the CGY 2025 1st is the Habs UNLESS it is 1OA - in that case, 2-10OA could still be forfeit so long as Florida misses the playoffs ... Sure, they probably won't, but if they did, that changes this deal tremendously. Having that asset locked in allows the Flames to commit to a rebuild without fear of a top 5 pick being pulled from them.

If this is not true, then the Habs have no reason to be apart of this deal and that is just me misunderstanding how the terms of the pick exchange work. If it is true, then the Devils are paying a premium, but getting a 75% retained all-star goalie for two years, and the Flames are freeing themselves of all the stipulations that could in a not-so-insane scenario see a top 5 pick change hands next draft. Again, Coronato is probably still too much to ask especially for a rebuilding team so maybe a 2nd or something makes more sense - but that was my logic at least.

What the trade comes off as is a Montreal fan that wants to obtain the best assets in a trade where their only real purpose is to eat some cap. I don't see the Devils having any interest in paying for full retention. They have the cap to pay a goalie. If there is retention it would be in the 3rd round pick compensation, not a 1st or top prospect.
Secondly, Calgary is in a rebuild, hence trading away vets and they trade their best forward prospect for a couple late 1sts and a player drafted 6 years ago and is a AHL/NHL tweener.

This trade makes no sense for either the Devils or the Flames, so it was a Habs fan making a proposal where the Habs get the best pick and the 2 best prospects. Poorly thought out for all teams when you realize the Habs don't have the retention spot to utilize anyway.

 

[pth2]

What the trade comes off as is a Montreal fan that wants to obtain the best assets in a trade where their only real purpose is to eat some cap. I don't see the Devils having any interest in paying for full retention. They have the cap to pay a goalie. If there is retention it would be in the 3rd round pick compensation, not a 1st or top prospect.
Secondly, Calgary is in a rebuild, hence trading away vets and they trade their best forward prospect for a couple late 1sts and a player drafted 6 years ago and is a AHL/NHL tweener.

This trade makes no sense for either the Devils or the Flames, so it was a Habs fan making a proposal where the Habs get the best pick and the 2 best prospects. Poorly thought out for all teams when you realize the Habs don't have the retention spot to utilize anyway.

Yeah, this is a Habs fan trying to gain value through salary retention (which isn't available) and thinking Calgary sees value in recovering their pick. I can't disagree on that 2nd point, and at the 2023 draft I even suggested Calgary trade back their 2025 pick for their 2023 one, but this trade proposal requires this value to be seen as massive by Calgary management.... and the OP doesn't seem to have a better handle on those trade conditions than anyone else.... which is unfortunate since defending the proposal requires being able to justify that pick's higher value for Calgary.

 

[Wayfarer13]

The Predators were reportedly asking for two 1sts + a prospect - so what you'd be paying in this deal + your 2025 1st ... not to say that he isn't significantly better, but that is a notable jump in price.

They also would probably want Mercer - not Holtz.

Asking is just asking. The question is will they get it?

I don't see the point either. They *are* giving up 2 firsts, then getting a first and a couple of promising young players back. This only works if Calgary values getting their own pick back more than they should, really.

Timing would be problematic, as well - Montreal can't retain on any more contracts until July 1st, by then the 2024 draft is done.

Future considerations with a hand shake and a wink.

 

[pth2]

Future considerations with a hand shake and a wink.

Salary retention is set up through the league, with CBA implications, it can't be done through "future considerations".

 

[Wayfarer13]

Salary retention is set up through the league, with CBA implications, it can't be done through "future considerations".

The player transaction can occur on July 1 being the future consideration of a deal done earlier.

 

[zar]

Feel free to roast away but curious what people think about the following:


Habs Receive:
Coronato
Holtz
NJD 2024 1st (11-15)

Devils Receive:
Markstrom (75% retained)

Flames Receive:
WPG 1st 2024
CGY 1st 2025 (they can commit to a rebuild with their pick back)
Ylonen

I understand at its core Holtz + a 1st for Markstrom is probably on the 'overpayment' side but getting a legit #1 goaltender for 2yrs @ 1.5m cap hit has a lot of unspoken value so I felt like it somewhat balanced it out.

I don't think the Holtz + mid 1st offer is enough to get Markstrom from CGY, nor do I think is a slightly retained Markstrom worth those assets - Habs come in as a broker to increase value for CGY and also eat more cap for NJD. They do it because it lets them move up 8-10 slots at the draft and add two more prospects that they can either flip for a bigger asset (Zegras?) or who fit the age group of the current core.

Coronato might be a guy the Flames don't want to move - not sure who makes sense value wise but the Habs will likely want similar value back in trading those picks.

Some Habs fans opinions are delusional.

As an Oiler fan, I endorse this deal.

 

[pth2]

The player transaction can occur on July 1 being the future consideration of a deal done earlier.

Could they really? Has that ever happened before? Once a player is traded, he's gone.

You can't tack on retention later on AFAIK, otherwise retention would be traded independently of other assets, and that's never been done (which is why 3d party retention is so complex to follow through, since it's a series of deals)

Some Habs fans opinions are delusional.

If he really thinks that Calgary very badly wants their pick back, it's delusional but with still some foggy, distant link to a far-off reality somewhere in there.

The problem is, the trade conditions from the Monahan deal don't support that kind of valuation for that pick.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

I can see the proposal of Gallagher for the 1st though, which was suggested in another thread.
That one makes sense to me.