Player Discussion: Neal Pionk

[BatVader]

I love this thread...
“other people have an opinion that differs from my opinion, and are there for obviously wrong, and as such must have a trivial reason for being so wrong, since my opinion is obviously right”

just because someone doesn’t think Pionk is a top 4 doesn’t mean they’ve never watched him play. It also doesn’t mean they are basing their opinion on 3rd party views. It might, just might mean they have made their own opinion based on their own observations.
Just because someone’s opinion differs from yours doesn’t make it wrong. It also doesn’t make yours right.

 

[stonec]

He has not been a 3/4.

You are correct, he's been playing more like a 1/2, often overshadowing Morrissey offensively.

 

[pucka lucka]

You are correct, he's been playing more like a 1/2, often overshadowing Morrissey offensively.

Do you understand what I was saying? He is playing 1/2 minutes with 3/4 skills. Not his fault. This is managements fault.

 

[AKAChip]

I’ve liked Pionk’s game this year. Pleasant surprise. Hope he keeps it up.

 

[Whileee]

Do you understand what I was saying? He is playing 1/2 minutes with 3/4 skills. Not his fault. This is managements fault.

If they had Buff he'd be playing 3/4 minutes. That was probably the plan. Hard to get another 1/2 D at the drop of a hat.

 

[Ducky10]

I love this thread...
“other people have an opinion that differs from my opinion, and are there for obviously wrong, and as such must have a trivial reason for being so wrong, since my opinion is obviously right”

just because someone doesn’t think Pionk is a top 4 doesn’t mean they’ve never watched him play. It also doesn’t mean they are basing their opinion on 3rd party views. It might, just might mean they have made their own opinion based on their own observations.
Just because someone’s opinion differs from yours doesn’t make it wrong. It also doesn’t make yours right.

Ok so if my observation and opinion is Victor Hedman is a 3/4 defense man, it’s therefore true? I don’t have to back that up with any kind of tangible metrics or examples based on my eye test?
Sometimes opinions are more right than others, sorry. And yes, I think Pionk is still being judged from his play with the Rangers by some.

 

[Ducky10]

He has not been a 3/4.

Yes he has, quite easily. Usually playing with replacement level players.

edit, sorry I believe I misunderstood where you were coming from. Agreed, his role has not been as a 3/4, which it’s more suited to be.

 

[BatVader]

Ok so if my observation and opinion is Victor Hedman is a 3/4 defense man, it’s therefore true? I don’t have to back that up with any kind of tangible metrics or examples based on my eye test?
Sometimes opinions are more right than others, sorry. And yes, I think Pionk is still being judged from his play with the Rangers by some.

I have no problem with opinions, it’s when people start saying others are wrong just because their opinion differs that I have an issue.
...and I’m absolutely still judging Pionk from his play with the Rangers. He hasn’t played near enough games with the Jets to say he’s any better/worse/equal.

 

[Whileee]

Yes he has, quite easily. Usually playing with replacement level players.

I think his point is that Pionk's usage has been as a 1/2 D, but he's better suited as a 3/4 D.

 

[Ducky10]

I have no problem with opinions, it’s when people start saying others are wrong just because their opinion differs...
and I’m absolutely still judging Pionk from his play with the Rangers. He hasn’t played near enough games with the Jets to say he’s any better/worse/equal.

He hadn’t played nearly enough games with the Rangers to decide he was that bad either. Didn’t stop people though.

He’s been good with the Jets so far, all things considered. That’s all that’s relevant at the moment. He clearly has the skills to be a good second pair guy.

 

[Ducky10]

I think his point is that Pionk's usage has been as a 1/2 D, but he's better suited as a 3/4 D.

Ah, fair enough. I agree with that assessment.
Thanks

 

[BatVader]

He hadn’t played nearly enough games with the Rangers to decide he was that bad either. Didn’t stop people though.

He’s been good with the Jets so far, all things considered. That’s all that’s relevant at the moment. He clearly has the skills to be a good second pair guy.

I agree that he’s been good with the Jets so far, and if he keeps it up I’ll concede he’s better than I expected.

 

[ps241]

I love this thread...
“other people have an opinion that differs from my opinion, and are there for obviously wrong, and as such must have a trivial reason for being so wrong, since my opinion is obviously right”

just because someone doesn’t think Pionk is a top 4 doesn’t mean they’ve never watched him play. It also doesn’t mean they are basing their opinion on 3rd party views. It might, just might mean they have made their own opinion based on their own observations.
Just because someone’s opinion differs from yours doesn’t make it wrong. It also doesn’t make yours right.

How would you rank Pionk vs let’s say Myers last two seasons here?

I always felt Tyler was best suited to the #5 spot and he could play The #4 spot solidly when needed with a good partner. I felt He struggled on balance in the #4 spot with a weak partner. When Myers and Kuli were asked to play second pair it scared the hell out of me and it was a box of chocolates.

So far I prefer Pionk to Myers but the sample size has been small. Neil has been asked to play much tougher situations than Tyler was asked in the top 4 with lord knows who as a partner when not Josh (Yikes). However that has been balanced by playing in front of vezina level .930 Helle for now.

40 games will be a better indicator.

 

[Jets 31]

Trouba or Pionk , Connor and Laine ? You aren't signing Connor or Laine when you pay Trouba 8 million a year , i'll take Pionk at 3 million and have enough cap for Connor and Laine . Plus knowing Trouba we would have had to pay 10 million or he would have sat out .

 

[Gm0ney]

He hadn’t played nearly enough games with the Rangers to decide he was that bad either. Didn’t stop people though.

He’s been good with the Jets so far, all things considered. That’s all that’s relevant at the moment. He clearly has the skills to be a good second pair guy.

He had 1600+ 5v5 minutes with the Rags. He's had just under 300 minutes with the Jets. As Garret would say, we'd have more confidence that his 1600 minute sample.

But he has certainly been better than his (low) expectations. And there seems to be some fundamental flaw with NYR's system that may have dragged his metrics down (though his xGF% is about the same right now as it was last year...but there may also be some flaws with the Jets system )

 

[KingBogo]

He had 1600+ 5v5 minutes with the Rags. He's had just under 300 minutes with the Jets. As Garret would say, we'd have more confidence that his 1600 minute sample.

But he has certainly been better than his (low) expectations. And there seems to be some fundamental flaw with NYR's system that may have dragged his metrics down (though his xGF% is about the same right now as it was last year...but there may also be some flaws with the Jets system )

I think we are getting closer when we start talking systems and usage. We have seen enough from Pionk to know that he possesses the skill set to be an effective NHL defenseman. He skates extremely well, he moves the puck well and appears to have nice offensive instincts. Just like we have seen enough from Bitetto to know he will never be an effective NHL defenseman because he does none of the above well.

 

[Whileee]

He had 1600+ 5v5 minutes with the Rags. He's had just under 300 minutes with the Jets. As Garret would say, we'd have more confidence that his 1600 minute sample.

But he has certainly been better than his (low) expectations. And there seems to be some fundamental flaw with NYR's system that may have dragged his metrics down (though his xGF% is about the same right now as it was last year...but there may also be some flaws with the Jets system )

I am skeptical about translating shot metrics from one context to another very different context reliably. Even though models now adjust for score, venue, teammates and opponents, I think that a player can't transcend a fully dysfunctional team, and players with more responsibility tend to have their own metrics affected more by being in a gong show environment. For example, look at the trajectory in shot metrics for Doughty and Kopitar with the Kings. Did they become bad players overnight? I doubt it. There are plenty of examples of players moving from one situation to another with substantial changes in their shot metrics. I think that we sometimes put too much weight on shot metrics without considering potential confounding factors and should be less quick to label players as good or bad based on a season or two in a particular context.

 

[scelaton]

How would you rank Pionk vs let’s say Myers last two seasons here?

I always felt Tyler was best suited to the #5 spot and he could play The #4 spot solidly when needed with a good partner. I felt He struggled on balance in the #4 spot with a weak partner. When Myers and Kuli were asked to play second pair it scared the hell out of me and it was a box of chocolates.

So far I prefer Pionk to Myers but the sample size has been small. Neil has been asked to play much tougher situations than Tyler was asked in the top 4 with lord knows who as a partner when not Josh (Yikes). However that has been balanced by playing in front of vezina level .930 Helle for now.

40 games will be a better indicator.

I always felt that 'good Myers' was a second pair D, but that was the ceiling..and his experience in Buffalo illustrated that best. Bad Myers didn't get it done in his own zone as a top-4.

From what I've seen of Pionk, second pair D is his floor, but he has enough skill, smarts and relative NHL youth to grow, with a strong partner.

Both Myers and Pionk are doing well on their new teams. Both have + CF Rel, but Pionk has twice the points. Myers has 14 PIM (remember??) to Pionks 4 min. And then there is the age gap (Myers turning 30 in <3 months) and AAV.

All in all, I'm feeling pretty good about the comparison. Myers is a solid citizen and I loved the condor moves, but that's about all I'll miss on-ice.

 

[Jet]

No it isn't.

If this isn't a Monty Python sketch I'm unliking this post.

 

[Jet]

I find his lack of physicality to be vastly overblown. He's been good at getting body position on guys by using his skating ability and his stick has been very good along the wall. I was at the game last night and saw him a number of times retrieve the puck under pressure, absorb the hit and come away with it. He knows his size limitations and is good at using his strengths.

That is one of the things that has stuck out to me. Despite his size he engages physically with players much larger than him with impressive success. That's where his play in the D zone differs from say, Enstrom. Enstrom used wits and his long stick to retrieve and turn over pucks, but his lack of physical play hurt him in the later part of his career.

Pionk has been so surprising -- even for me who was very optimistic when we got him. Offensive ability even better than I thought it would be and his defensive play has been really surprising. He thinks very quickly (I expected him to make panicky, poor decisions based on Rangers fans opinion). He has good evasive skills and outside of some mistakes, which I'm sure he will work on, he's much better than advertised.

So far, he's a bona fide top pair defenseman. Love being right - watching Trouba get eaten up by the Rangers situation and Pionk flourish here (despite our challenges on D this year)

 

[Jet]

If it persists, it'll be a victory for those who choose to actually wait until a player has a handful of games as a Jet before writing them off as garbage.

You can say the same thing about Sbiza. He has much more history and I know he strugged to play in the NHL last year but for me, he's been better than Kulikov so far - I wouldn't be upset if he ended up on the bottom pair.

Made simple decisions, and a little physicality and size back there.

 

[Bob E]

I would love to see a 2nd pairing of Samberg-Pionk next year.

I think that pairing could be very effective and complement one another well.

 

[kanadalainen]

If this isn't a Monty Python sketch I'm unliking this post.

Oh, its definitely Python.

 

[Heldig]

I would love to see a 2nd pairing of Samberg-Pionk next year.

I think that pairing could be very effective and complement one another well.

Fingers crossed!

 

[ps241]

I would love to see a 2nd pairing of Samberg-Pionk next year.

I think that pairing could be very effective and complement one another well.

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