Stony Curtis
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- Sep 21, 2018
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With that reach, they'd be fist bumping lol.
Moritz Seider
- Thread starter Richard Gibson
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With that reach, they'd be fist bumping lol.
Nemesis Prime
Registered User
I thought this guy would be a 45p rock at his absolute best, and he's on pace to crush that in his first year.
I couldn't have been more wrong and I'm okay with this.
I couldn't have been more wrong and I'm okay with this.
Glad I was able to explain it better.
I was fairly young in the 90's and a bit too young in the 80's. But this defensive aspect about the modern game honestly bugs me a bit. The regular season, at least to some extent has turned into a bit of a "breeze" for some teams, especially since it's so possession heavy. Teams like the Avs can just blow through the regular season, not every game obviously, but the majority, dominating on possession and not having to worry too much about playing actual defense, in their zone when the opposition is pressuring. As Henkka described in one of his posts above.
It's basically: gain possession, transition through neutral zone, attack, lose puck or score, trap the neutral zone try to regain possession, wait for shot, if they don't score, gain possession, go other way. I feel like much of the game.
In the 80's and 90's though, I feel like much, much more of the regular season was closer to playoff hockey. When you went into New Jersey, Detroit, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Boston, Philly etc.. you knew you were in for a battle. You knew you had to do everything right, and fight and play hard ass hockey for the entire game. Teams were probably more worried about players leaving the game with broken bones and missing teeth than just being winded sweaty. And for me at least, it just made the game and he fans hard. Not hard like difficult, but hard like those up north use "hard", like "hardman". You knew there would be fights and you knew who you had to stop but half the time couldn't stop them because their teammates would bulldoze you out of their way. Now when teams like the Devils really started making this constant, the game was slow at times and a lot of fans weren't happy about that I guess. Or at least, it made hockey a bit less exciting for the non-hardcore hockey crowd. But it made the regular season tough as nails and the players too.
I think in part, that's why guys like Pronger, Chelios, MacInnis, Tkachuk Sr., Jagr, Lemieux, Recchi, Forsberg, Lidstrom etc... seem like warrior gods. I mean, Lemieux was obviously one of the most talented players ever, but he could be a real son of a bitch. Just using his stick like a weapon which got him some minutes now and then. And I think comparatively it made defensemen like Pronger, Lidstrom, Chelios, etc... seem like God mode Super Saiyans compared to todays best defenders like Hedman, Doughty etc.. As good as guys like Hedman and Doughty are. Heck, they might even be as good or better ultimately, but it just doesn't come off the same. Because you had those defenders playing hard ass defense game in, game out. Scott Stevens made a career out of it, all though Devils maybe pissed fans off more than any other team because they were such a system team and they played what a lot of people considered "boring hockey".
And then, you obviously didn't have as much high, high end talent and you certainly didn't have as many amazing skaters and super speedy players. Which is why when the figureskating Russians came in, they truly amazed many people and upset many others because they played a very different game. They were flying past guys, twirling, doing a lot of what we see now in hockey. I actually think it was the Russians and other foreign guys that really helped turn the game in to what it is today. They brought that speed and finesse, that, while not being completely absent from the game prior, just wasn't so abundant. And most North American players, even if they were finesse guys, tended not to do it as sparkly and speedy as some of the Russians. I mean obviously you had like Gretzky, who was just immaculate and smooth as, well ice, even though he wasn't the fastest skater. Or Brett Hull and who was slow as mud from what I remember but you just couldn't stop him somehow. Or Brenden Shanahan who I don't think would ever be mistaken for a speedster. Their shots and just smart play had a lot to do with that. And then gradually after Bure, Recchi, guys like Selanne, Kariya, started coming in and players were gradually getting faster. But for the most part, the game was still really, really hard nosed and much slower. Which is why the speedsters I think were able to make such a big impact right away, a lot of guys just couldn't contend with them.
Now you have guys who are just pure lightning and so many of them. Defenders, forwards, all of them. Which has made it much harder for slower guys to transition. I think Dylan Strome and Alexis Lafreniere are good examples of this. Both were dominant younger players at Jr. etc.. but both struggle a bit in the NHL now because they aren't just more talented and bigger than most of the guys around them like they were when they were younger, but they also have to try to fit in and slow the game down, which is tough when guys like Kyrou, Makar, McDavid, Barzal etc.. are whizzing circles around everywhere.
But, I think the regular season as it was, definitely gave fans a better preview of how the playoffs and finals might go. Because teams were built for slower, skilled, but smashing hard hockey and that's how they played much of the time. Teams more often had one or two players who were solely there for muscle, just bruisers who served only that purpose. And while there are some guys like that still around, they still need to have some level of hockey talent or they aren't worth keeping around. But the biggest difference I think was defenders because if you were a defender, offense was extra. You HAD to defend and defend hard all the time. Which made guys who could do that and provide offense like GODS. And they stood out and stood out all the time.
Now, it's a bit different. The overall talent level is much much higher. The overall speed is insanely high. And smaller, skilled defenders are far more abundant. Guys like Leetch, Coffey and Bourque were special back then, not every team had one. And while the two way, complete god-like Dmen were amazing and could take over games on in their own end, guys like Leetch and Coffey stood out because they were SO offensively gifted. They were basically the predecessors of Dmen now like Makar and Fox. But they were more special back then because of how truly rare they were. Not than Makar and Fox aren't special, or even "rare", it's just that the disparity between them and other offensive minded Dmen isn't quite as large as it used to be.
Anyway, it was a very different game. I don't know if it was better or worse as far as overall entertainment value. Maybe it's because I was so young that I view those decades with rose colored glasses. I know a lot of people didn't always find the slower, more methodical and system oriented teams and play entertaining. A lot of teams got slack for playing "boring hockey", which you really don't hear much anymore. All though teams now, are starting to evolve and take on some of those aspects. Like I would compare the Islanders of the past few years, and say Vegas to some of those teams like the Devils of the 90s in that they do play a system game that might not be as exciting as the free flowing, high octane game of say the Avs.
But anyway, that might have something to do with why I still prefer my defenders to be capable of playing that style, while still having more modern attributes like possession ability. And that type of hockey hasn't wholly disappeared, but it is certainly more limited now to the end of the season and playoffs for the most part. Aside from a few teams that try to slow the game down still.
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hahaha. You call me "out to lunch"? You just wrote one of the most fallacious takes I have ever read on any board of any kind anywhere. And that is saying a lot. Let me school you and correct you now. Because what you wrote is borderline delusional and your knowledge of hockey history seems a bit lacking. I get you love Makar and think he's the bees knees, and by all accounts, he's a very special player. But your entire premise is irrational and improbable. You are flattering yourself with hype there. And it's clearly distorting your perspective.
What you are suggesting is also inaccurate and presumptuous. First and foremost, you are assuming that Makar still has WAY more to develop. He's all ready at a very high point. He will gain more experience, but he's not going to suddenly double his ability or anything just because he's 23. What we are seeing now is near what he's going to probably be for the majority of his career plus a little improvement. But he currently has as good of a partner as he will probably ever have, on as good of a team as he will probably ever be on. To suggest just because he's 23 that he's going to make another huge jump is SO unlikely. I don't care how good he is. There is only so much one player can produce. And development is not linear. CLEARLY Makar has already done most of his developing. He developed fairly young. Which means the development curve is almost certainly going to flatten sooner rather than later. If you think Makar is going to continue to develop in some vertical fashion, you are bonkers. No player does once they've reached a certain level. Not McDavid, not Crosby, Not Ovechkin.... none. And Colorado will not always be as good as they are now. They might get slightly better, but sooner or later they are going to start losing players. They won't be able to sign everyone. And since they are winning, that means no more high draft picks. Which means less of a chance to add very high caliber young players on entry level and bridge deals. Look at Pittsburgh for instance. Their best years, their winning years, were fairly early on in the careers of Crosby and Malkin. Lasted through the first half or so of their careers. And while they've been competitive since, they haven't been able to find that magic really since.
Second, Leetch and Karlsson are absolutely good comparisons. Especially if you correct for era they play in. Leetch scored 102 points in his 4th or 5th season, whichever it was. In a very different, far more defensive minded and hard hitting game. You think Makar is going to what, score 140 points every year or something? Right now he has 46 points in 46 games, so he's on exactly an 82 point pace. Again, with one of the best partners he will ever have on one of the best and most offensively efficient teams he will ever play on. There simply will not be an enormous jump in his development or that of the team. I don't doubt Makar can reach 100 points one year. And if/when he does, unless he scores 102, he will still be behind Leetch for a single season total. In full seasons, not counting his first year of 17 games, Leetch scored 71 his 2nd year, 88 his 3rd year, 102 4th, 79 6th, 85 8th, 78 9th season etc... In between those and seasons after he'd score 55 some year, then 78 again, and so on. You really think Makar is going to just blow those offensive numbers away? It's SO unlikely. I get that you are a big Makar fan, but now you are just overestimating what any one hockey player CAN do and you are discounting the possibility of things going wrong, the team changing, injuries, or just down years. Which every player has. Some of the greatest players have their best years early and never quite reach those heights again, others have them later in their career. But either way, he's going to have his ups and downs just like every other player in history pretty much. And Leetch was an absolutely wonderful defender. He just wasn't a super elite defender like Pronger or Lidstrom. Makar right now is NOT as good as a defender as Leetch or Bourque were in their prime. Maybe he will be, but he's not there yet. I highly doubt he surpasses them defensively either. At best, he could be as good as they were. But I don't think he will ever play defense like Pronger or Lidstrom.
Third, if he scores 30 goals, he's going to do it over the course of an entire season. Which is completely irrelevant in terms of each and every game. Meaning, elite defenders win you games. They don't rack up stats doing it, they perform IN the game and win single games. You are conflating that with cumulative counting stats. Which are nice, but that doesn't say much about game by game performance. He might score 5 hat tricks, and then when it comes to other games score nothing. So counting stats do not directly correlate with total wins, nor do they correlate with playoff and final wins. Not to mention, he's not going to dominate every playoff game or series. The beauty of an elite defender as that they play elite defense game in game out. Which can win you way more games over the course of the season and playoffs than counting stats, where many of those stats will occur in single games. So your logic here, in what you are insinuating is completely fallacious. Elite defenders can impact every game equally. Counting stats do not. This is also why McDavid and Matthews are yet to win a cup, no matter how many points they accumulate over the regular season. Hell, McDavid, the best player in the game, has on his team, arguably the second best offensive player in the game in Draisatl and they still can't even make it to a Cup finals. In fact, they've only MADE the playoffs twice since McDavid joined the team. And in those two playoff appearances they have won a total of ONE series. Having arguably the two best offensive players on their team. With a guy like Nurse on defense, who's not half bad. Now of course there are other reasons that have held them back as well. But Matthews hasn't fared a whole lot better. Ovi, won ONE Cup. Offense can win you games, especially during the regular season, but defense wins championships. It's not just a cliche, it's fact. Defense helps get you to the playoffs and wins you playoff rounds. You can get to the playoffs with great offense. But teams with great offense who lack defense, the kind of defense we are discussing here, simply do not win playoff series often let alone win Championships.
But also, that's kind of a disingenuous way to compare Makar and Seider. Because Seider will still be capable of scoring 60-80 points possibly while providing that kind of defense. So sure, Makar may score more goals. Josi might score more goals, but it's not like Seider or Hedman aren't contributing offensively. The goal difference might be bigger, but the point difference won't be. And again, Makar will still improve, but the rate of that improvement will decline quick, it's already starting to. He's all ready done most of his developing, Seider is JUST starting. So Makar is going to top off at a certain point, likely under 100 points per season. Most likely he will be a PPG-90ish point player most years, or at least his best years. And well, let's see if Makar gets to 30 goals this season. It would certainly be a feat and he's on pace. But he might still fall short. Plus, teams are going to learn to adjust. They are going to learn to pressure him more and try to shut him down as much as possible. It's not always going to be as easy for him to rack up such points. And he might not always have a partner as good as Toews or Byram eventually because it's going to be difficult to pay all of these guys under the cap structure. Right now teams really depend on entry level contracts and bridge deals to be able to stack talent on the ice. But that doesn't always work out because prospects and young guys won't always "hit", they won't always be so lucky having high end talent on entry level or bridge deals. Or even just "good contracts". I mean, Toews now, if he keeps this up is going to want to get paid eventually. Byram, if he develops like I think he will, is going to need to get paid eventually.
Look at the Rangers. Right now their D is Lindgren-Fox, Miller-Trouba, and Nemeth-Schneider. Likely soon enough Jones will come up permanently and replace Nemeth, either pairing with Schneider or pushing Miller down to 3rd pair and Jones pairing with Trouba. And then they still have Lundkvist to fit in somehow. All thought at this point, I am starting to think Lundkvist will be the one that gets traded at some point because of how good Schneider and Jones have looked. But anyway, having 3 guys on entry level contracts, 4 if you count Lundkvist, in your defense, allows you to have more talent for a limited period of time. And that has a big impact on depth and who your best players can be paired with.
Now as far as Makar's 12 playoff games...... he's been dominant in the playoffs? He's shut down the opposition? So that's why he's only played 12 playoff games on one of the most gifted offensive teams in the league, with a stud like MacKinnon? You prove my point with what you say. If Makar wants to play more playoff games, win more series, he's not going to do it just with offense. He won't be able to do it unless he or Byram or Toews step up and become defensively dominant during that playoff run. And Makar's playoff performance, so far, has been good, but nothing special.
Anyway, I think I've made my point, destroyed your silly dream, knocked your presumptions off a cliff and hopefully given you some perspective on what you think you know. Seriously.....
If I am "out to lunch", then you are on an entirely different planet.
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Oddbob
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2016
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Is your goal to write a book with every post? Man alive!
No, my goal is to clearly, accurately and fully express my thoughts, knowledge and opinions on the topic at hand. Plus, I am a writer. So it honestly only takes me about 10 minutes to write something like that. A bit less to read it. Not saying that to brag or anything. I just honestly sometimes don't even realize how much I have written until it's written. It's kind of not wholly conscious at this point. I am sorry. I know I write too much often hahaha. I honestly can't help it. It just comes out however it comes out. Plus I'm usually pretty high. Like too much probably haha.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
So basically during the All-star break Seider decided to quit worrying about the Calder and go for the Norris?
I like your posts, it's rare to find someone on the hfboards that knows what they are talking about when it comes to defenseman. I would agree with most of what you have been saying. I believe that all around defenseman are and will continue to be more valuable than offensive defenseman, especially in the playoffs. But points are always more exciting.
Anyways it will be interesting to see how well Makar does defensively in this year's playoffs.
And Detroit has a real gem in Seider.
newfy
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2010
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Relax JRR Tolkien.
If you cant see it thats fine, but youre out to lunch if you think Makar cant defend
ArGarBarGar
What do we want!? Unfair!
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OgeeOgelthorpe
Sparkplug
- Feb 29, 2020
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Those numbers are realgud. And those names were also pretty good with Detroit.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
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lhsgolf19
Registered User
ESPN now has him as the Calder Front Runner
NHL Awards Watch: Auston Matthews gains on MVP, rookie of the year stunner
NHL Awards Watch: Auston Matthews gains on MVP, rookie of the year stunner
Ricelund
̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Eh, Sergei Fedorov honestly wasn't much of a d-man so I don't know how much this says about Seider.
Gniwder
Registered User
I laughed, but he was pretty damn good as D. How many forwards can even play D at the NHL level?
Feds could skate backwards faster than half of this current team can skate forwards.
Actually Bowman thought that Fedorov would have made a very good defenceman and played him there for awhile where he proved to be quite effective and productive. Fedorov wanted to go back to being a forward so after their defenceman became healthy that is where he returned to.
sepster
Gerard Gallant is my Spirit Animal
I believe Bowman first moved Fedorov to defense in the spring of '97 and that he moved back to forward when Murphy was acquired.
Scotty Bowman said, "He was the best defenseman in the league for a six-week period."
Henkka
Registered User
Yeah, I've have had a lot of discussion about this lately with my hockey friends.
Final conclusion was that Fedorov played defence like Erik Karlsson played defence in his prime. Heavy puck control game and only weakness was defending the net-front + board battles.
ShelbyZ
Registered User
- Apr 8, 2015
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I made a huge post in the HOH forum about this that can be found here: Sergei Fedorov in the RS
It looked like the earliest Bowman dressed Fedorov on D was a small handful of games in January 1996. Then after the Wings acquired Murphy the next season, Fedorov finished the regular season and started the playoffs on D.
Later on in his career, he dressed on D here and there for Hitchcock with the Jackets and Boudreau with the Caps.
I generally don't ad hominem. But if you read the post I was replying to, you'll see why. It was only in response to what was said to me.
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