Moritz Seider

[brakeyawself]

Nothing wrong with expecting a 20 year old rookie to be the best defensive player in the league right off the hop.

Normally, I would agree. But I don't think it's overhype suggesting he's the best Dman rookie since Makar, and the best complete rookie D since Ekblad. But in NHL terms, I think he will be better than both. Or at least, more complete than both. All though, Makar I expect will outscore him and most other NHL for the majority of his career.

Normally, I wouldn't want to suggest that pressure either. But, all signs so far point to, not an issue. Worst case, aside from some debilitating injury or something, he's peaked early and is just an A grade Dman instead of an A+. But I don't think that's the case.

 

[jaster]

He averages one bad play a game, but I wouldn't say he gives away the puck frequently..... he's got 27 giveaways so far, and like you said he touches the puck a lot.

I get more concerned when he leaves his partner covering a 2 on 1, either from pinching or overplaying his man in the D zone. That's happened a few times. I'm sorta expecting perfection on the defensive side.

If there is one counting stat I don't trust, it's giveaways/takeaways (I guess that's two). Seider has definitely given the puck away more than 27 times this season. Thing is, a lot of the time it's in lower-risk situations, and I think he knows this. He has a great feel for what direction the play is going, and how quickly the other team can turn it around. Sometimes his turnovers result in a change of possession, but don't necessarily lead to a scoring chance. What he needs to clean up, and what I think he will, is the giveaways in high-risk situations, like the play up the middle against Philly.

His IQ and feel for the game is elite-level, so there's just no worry here for me. In fact, there's no part of his game I worry about long-term. The only question for me is just how good he gets. Will he be a perennial Norris contender, or simply a clear-cut, dependable #1 D? Or something in between? He's already the 2nd best Red Wings defenseman of my lifetime at least (yes, I have him above Vlad and Kronner).

Fun fact: At his current scoring pace (which appears very sustainable), and assuming he stays relatively healthy, Mo Seider should be 4th all-time in Red Wings scoring among defensemen.... at age 25.

 

[jaster]

Nothing wrong with expecting a 20 year old rookie to be the best defensive player in the league right off the hop.

My expectation for Seider going into this season was lower than what he's actually given us. Perfection is certainly not my expectation.

Pointing out his flaws ≠ expecting perfection.

 

[jaster]

Normally, I would agree. But I don't think it's overhype suggesting he's the best Dman rookie since Makar, and the best complete rookie D since Ekblad. But in NHL terms, I think he will be better than both. Or at least, more complete than both. All though, Makar I expect will outscore him and most other NHL for the majority of his career.

Normally, I wouldn't want to suggest that pressure either. But, all signs so far point to, not an issue. Worst case, aside from some debilitating injury or something, he's peaked early and is just an A grade Dman instead of an A+. But I don't think that's the case.

Seider : Makar :: Doughty : Karlsson ?

 

[Gniwder]

Nothing wrong with expecting a 20 year old rookie to be the best defensive player in the league right off the hop.

Well he started off from such a high baseline defensively (which we all expected), and he's progressing at such a fast pace that perfection is the only logical next step. That is what Lidstrom strived for (read that in an article back in the days) and he got pretty damn close (as close as humanely possible anyways).

That's all I'm saying. I actually have lower expectations out of Edvinsson that most here, he's good but he's not Seider defensively. Maybe he'll surprise me.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Seider : Makar :: Doughty : Karlsson ?

Doughty may be the most overrated D of his generation. A solid #1 d on a team but I never thought of him as a top 5 guy in the league, even in his Norris year.

Honestly, the Pronger comparison is becoming more apt every game.

 

[golffuul]

Doughty may be the most overrated D of his generation. A solid #1 d on a team but I never thought of him as a top 5 guy in the league, even in his Norris year.

Honestly, the Pronger comparison is becoming more apt every game.

Yeah...Doughty, in most games I've seen him, doesn't look like a #1. I've seen him in a few games where he is everywhere and is a monster. But 90% of his games seem like he's more of a Ryan Suter type. Steady minute muncher with not a lot of flash.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Doughty may be the most overrated D of his generation. A solid #1 d on a team but I never thought of him as a top 5 guy in the league, even in his Norris year.

Honestly, the Pronger comparison is becoming more apt every game.

As someone who's watched a lot of Kings games, I strongly disagree. Being in LA he hasn't gotten as much attention as he should, especially in his prime. And when he did it was often more for running his mouth. He managed to consistently produce on a team that wasn't exactly offense first, he was often paired with weak partners, he can move the puck, plays physical and solid on D. My biggest criticism of Doughty was shot selection. And in his younger years some poor decision-making.

Depending on who you consider his peers, I can't say there's many d-men I would take over Doughty.

As for Seider I can see the Pronger comparison. He's not as physical as Pronger was but it's a different era. And I'm guessing he'll get more physical as he packs on some muscle.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Seider has about one bad turnover a game still. Some more egregious than others. Some that would get our other defensemen flamed for 3 pages in the GDT.

Probably because they don't do anything noticeable on the ice except for those bad turnovers.

Seider is getting a lot of hype these days so I know it's inevitable someone here would take a contrarian position. But even with the occasional mistake it's fairly clear to see his performance overall is a huge net positive for the team. Then factor in grading on a curve because he's a 20 year old playing his 49th NHL game. That's going to buy him a lot of slack with fans as opposed to say Oesterle.

 

[jaster]

Probably because they don't do anything noticeable on the ice except for those bad turnovers.

Seider is getting a lot of hype these days so I know it's inevitable someone here would take a contrarian position. But even with the occasional mistake it's fairly clear to see his performance overall is a huge net positive for the team. Then factor in grading on a curve because he's a 20 year old playing his 49th NHL game. That's going to buy him a lot of slack with fans as opposed to say Oesterle.

I think if you read all of my posts on the past couple pages, my total view of Seider is pretty clear, and you'll notice I'm not an actual contrarian (I make some of the same points you're making here). But I also don't think it's out of bounds to point out where the kid can improve either because, again, he's not perfect. We should hope there is room for improvement in fact.

Here's another take I have: Seider is in a tier of his own when it comes to the Calder to me. This constant discussion of Seider vs Raymond vs Zegras this season has been silly to me. Raymond and Zegras aren't even really close to what Seider is doing so far. And I really like both those players. It's....

1) Seider
.
.
.
.
.
.
2/3/4) Raymond/Zegras/(maybe)Lundell battling it out.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

What's lost a little bit in the Seider mistake department is that everybody makes mistakes, everybody gives the puck away and sometimes in really bad places at really bad times. The first year Hedman really got into the Norris conversation (third in 2016-17) he set a career high in points and a career-high in give-aways. The first year Datsyuk won the Selke, he led the Wings in give-aways. The best are always pushing the boundaries, the guys who have the puck most are also going to give it away a fair number of times. Considering how much time Seider has the puck on his stick, his mistakes with it are IMO few and far between. And when it happens, it's like a shock to the system.

 

[brakeyawself]

Seider : Makar :: Doughty : Karlsson ?

Maybe more.... Seider : Makar :: Hedman : Karlsson

Yea, I would say so. All though, I think Seider will be >> Doughty ultimately. Makar will likely, offensively be the best of them. Well, maybe Quinn Hughes will be up there, but he can't play a lick of defense, so i don't even count him as a dman, just a PP specialist lol. No but really, Seider is that good. He could have some competition from Luke Hughes, Power and Edvinsson eventually. But since Edvinsson also a Wing, well, they might end up being the best D duo in the league. I would take Seider. I honestly think Seider has the ability to at least come the closest to Hedman anyone has come. As far as overall play. Maybe he won't quite reach THAT level, but like not too far off.

 

[brakeyawself]

Well he started off from such a high baseline defensively (which we all expected), and he's progressing at such a fast pace that perfection is the only logical next step. That is what Lidstrom strived for (read that in an article back in the days) and he got pretty damn close (as close as humanely possible anyways).

That's all I'm saying. I actually have lower expectations out of Edvinsson that most here, he's good but he's not Seider defensively. Maybe he'll surprise me.

I doubt, any NHL D prospect, except perhaps Power, could be equated to Seider. Think Edvinsson will be terrific and a great 2nd Dman for the Wings, but Seider will be THE guy.

I did think Dahlin would be what Seider is now, but he hasn't looked the part. So hopefully I am not wrong again. Not that I'm the only one that would be wrong, many thought Dahlin would be up there.

Some might think I am overhyping him, but as I stated above, I think Seider, and maybe Power will be the closest to Hedman that you can get without being Hedman.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I doubt, any NHL D prospect, except perhaps Power, could be equated to Seider. Think Edvinsson will be terrific and a great 2nd Dman for the Wings, but Seider will be THE guy.

I did think Dahlin would be what Seider is now, but he hasn't looked the part. So hopefully I am not wrong again. Not that I'm the only one that would be wrong, many thought Dahlin would be up there.

Some might think I am overhyping him, but as I stated above, I think Seider, and maybe Power will be the closest to Hedman that you can get without being Hedman.

I’m not sure why people are acting like Hedman is infallible. Guys an absolute beast but someone like Makar is a better defenseman currently. He is phenomenal defensively and people seem to assume he’s bad because he’s shorter and scores points.

I don’t really think Seider plays much like Hedman to be honest. He’s big and mobile and that’s similar, but he’s much more like Neidermayer mixed with Pronger than a copy of Hedman.

 

[brakeyawself]

I’m not sure why people are acting like Hedman is infallible. Guys an absolute beast but someone like Makar is a better defenseman currently. He is phenomenal defensively and people seem to assume he’s bad because he’s shorter and scores points.

I don’t really think Seider plays much like Hedman to be honest. He’s big and mobile and that’s similar, but he’s much more like Neidermayer mixed with Pronger than a copy of Hedman.

I never said Hedman is "infallible" but he's the best Dman of this generation. And no, Makar is not a better dman. No way. If I had to pick another Dman right now for his total game, not just offense, it would be Fox. But either way, Makar will get better, but I don't think he will ever be as good as Hedman at his peak.

Just because other players might have amazing stretches and just because Hedman might have slumping periods, doesn't mean they are "better" defenseman. It means they performed better for a limited period. No player is "infallible".

But if I am taking one Dman to start a team with, for a few seasons at least, discounting age, it's Hedman every single time. I don't even know how you can argue that with a straight face.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I never said Hedman is "infallible" but he's the best Dman of this generation. And no, Makar is not a better dman. No way. If I had to pick another Dman right now for his total game, not just offense, it would be Fox. But either way, Makar will get better, but I don't think he will ever be as good as Hedman at his peak.

Just because other players might have amazing stretches and just because Hedman might have slumping periods, doesn't mean they are "better" defenseman. It means they performed better for a limited period. No player is "infallible".

But if I am taking one Dman to start a team with, for a few seasons at least, discounting age, it's Hedman every single time. I don't even know how you can argue that with a straight face.

I mean, I’d argue Makar is right there with Hedman at his peak right now. What exactly does Hedman have that Makar doesn’t? Apart from size, because it’s not like Hedman uses it to throw crushing hits.

 

[newfy]

I mean, I’d argue Makar is right there with Hedman at his peak right now. What exactly does Hedman have that Makar doesn’t? Apart from size, because it’s not like Hedman uses it to throw crushing hits.

I actually think this season Makar is the best dman I've seen play in a decade. Better than Hedman and Karlsson at their best. Hes on pace for like 35 goals as a dman thats very legit in his own end.

 

[Gniwder]

I actually think this season Makar is the best dman I've seen play in a decade. Better than Hedman and Karlsson at their best. Hes on pace for like 35 goals as a dman thats very legit in his own end.

Guess who the last defenseman to score 30 goals was? Mike Green in 2008-2009, and Makar is way better defensively.

I got flamed for calling him generational earlier in this thread, here's NHL list of most goals in a season for defensemen, Makar is on pace to hit the top ten:
NHL Defensemen - Most Goals in a Single Season

 

[brakeyawself]

I mean, I’d argue Makar is right there with Hedman at his peak right now. What exactly does Hedman have that Makar doesn’t? Apart from size, because it’s not like Hedman uses it to throw crushing hits.

Um, at Hedman's peak? He was way better than Makar is defensively. I'm not even sure Makar is the best D on his team right now the way Toews has been playing. And Byram wont be as good offensively, but defensively, I think he's better than Makar.

Look, Makar is one of the top 2 offensive Dmen in the NHL along with Hughes and probably Fox. I think right now Fox is the most complete of the 3. Hughes sucks at defense still, I would say he's still below average. When Makar came into the league as a rookie, his defense was ok. I would say slightly below average even. By his second season he had improved to average, maybe slightly above. And now he;s gotten a bit better. But I don't think he's defensively as good as Fox is right now, and I don't think either are as good as Hedman was at his peak. And since Hedman is/was also one of the best offensive D of his generation, to me he's the most complete D of this generation. With both elite level offense and elite level defense.

I get that the D position has changed in the NHL. But I still rate Dmen by their defense first and foremost. Then if they can add high end offense, great. And as I said, I think Makar is better offensively than all but perhaps Hughes. But he's still in that Erik Karlsson range for me because of his defense, which has improved a lot, will probably improve more, but in my estimation, is not yet at the level of Fox and is not yet at the level Hedman was at his peak. Or even like, last season.

This year, I would agree, Hedman hasn't looked at his best defensively. I am not sure why. But it might have to do with the Bolts team in general. Losing players like Goodrow has clearly impacted them. But right now, you really believe Makar is an elite defensive Dman?

 

[brakeyawself]

Guess who the last defenseman to score 30 goals was? Mike Green in 2008-2009, and Makar is way better defensively.

I got flamed for calling him generational earlier in this thread, here's NHL list of most goals in a season for defensemen, Makar is on pace to hit the top ten:
NHL Defensemen - Most Goals in a Single Season

Offense is great. But I don't just judge Dmen by their offense. Heck, I don't just judge forwards by their offense. But especially Dmen.

To me, an elite Dman, plays elite defense and provides high offense. I would rather have a defenseman that plays elite defense and scores 50 points, than just an above average defensive Dman that scores 70.

Which is why when Nucks fans say Hughes is one of the top 10 Dmen in the league I have to cringe. For me Hughes isn't even in the top 20 Dmen in the NHL right now and I honestly don't care how many points he scores. Until he could play defense, he's just not there. He's an elite fantasy Dman. He's an elite PP specialist/offensive specialist, but he's not a top NHL defenseman.

Makar is different, because he's as good as Hughes offensively but better defensively. He's just not yet at a level defensively where I would want him as my top Dman if I were contending for a cup. Maybe he will be eventually. But I don't think he is right now.

To me, Hedman has been most of his career, both offensively and defensively. Lidstrom was. Um, Pietrangelo is up there, not quite as high offensively. Doughty. Pronger was. Coffey, Bourque and Chelios were somewhere up there. If you can see a trend in the guys I am listing, they are generally complete Dmen. But even if their offense wasn't like Karlsson, Makar level, their defense was top notch for the most part. Because the position of defenseman is about defense first and foremost. Even in this era of the high octane offensive Dman. Even if some like to overlook it. Which is why as good as Karlsson was, I wouldn't want him over Pietrangelo or Doughty even in his prime. I would take Pietrangelo and Doughty any day of the week over a prime Karlsson, because Karlsson's defense wasn't quite as good as those guys generally speaking. Not that Karlsson was bad defensively. I just don't think he was like able to control a game defensively.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Um, at Hedman's peak? He was way better than Makar is defensively. I'm not even sure Makar is the best D on his team right now the way Toews has been playing. And Byram wont be as good offensively, but defensively, I think he's better than Makar.

Look, Makar is one of the top 2 offensive Dmen in the NHL along with Hughes and probably Fox. I think right now Fox is the most complete of the 3. Hughes sucks at defense still, I would say he's still below average. When Makar came into the league as a rookie, his defense was ok. I would say slightly below average even. By his second season he had improved to average, maybe slightly above. And now he;s gotten a bit better. But I don't think he's defensively as good as Fox is right now, and I don't think either are as good as Hedman was at his peak. And since Hedman is/was also one of the best offensive D of his generation, to me he's the most complete D of this generation. With both elite level offense and elite level defense.

I get that the D position has changed in the NHL. But I still rate Dmen by their defense first and foremost. Then if they can add high end offense, great. And as I said, I think Makar is better offensively than all but perhaps Hughes. But he's still in that Erik Karlsson range for me because of his defense, which has improved a lot, will probably improve more, but in my estimation, is not yet at the level of Fox and is not yet at the level Hedman was at his peak. Or even like, last season.

This year, I would agree, Hedman hasn't looked at his best defensively. I am not sure why. But it might have to do with the Bolts team in general. Losing players like Goodrow has clearly impacted them. But right now, you really believe Makar is an elite defensive Dman?

Yes, I do believe that. I’m not sure what games you’re watching where he isn’t. He doesn’t make any major mistakes, he’s great at defending on the rush, he’s extremely intelligent and does not succumb to forecheck pressure in his own zone. He’s not a shutdown defenseman per se in that he’s not 6’5” boxing forwards out from the front of the net, but every other element of his defensive game is fantastic.

I agree with the poster above in that Makar is the best defenseman of the last decade currently.

 

[brakeyawself]

Yes, I do believe that. I’m not sure what games you’re watching where he isn’t. He doesn’t make any major mistakes, he’s great at defending on the rush, he’s extremely intelligent and does not succumb to forecheck pressure in his own zone. He’s not a shutdown defenseman per se in that he’s not 6’5” boxing forwards out from the front of the net, but every other element of his defensive game is fantastic.

I agree with the poster above in that Makar is the best defenseman of the last decade currently.

Ok..... so he;s not elite defensively right? Can he control a game defensively? Is he as good as like Pietrangelo defensively?

And you do not need to be 6'5 to be an elite defensive dman.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Ok..... so he;s not elite defensively right? Can he control a game defensively? Is he as good as like Pietrangelo defensively?

Yeah I’d say he’s as good as Pietrangelo defensively and significantly better offensively. Again I still don’t get what issues you think he has defensively? If he was 6’2” would you have the same impression?

 

[brakeyawself]

Yeah I’d say he’s as good as Pietrangelo defensively and significantly better offensively. Again I still don’t get what issues you think he has defensively? If he was 6’2” would you have the same impression?

Wow. Well, then we will have to just disagree. I don't think he's near that level defensively yet. Sorry.

What issues? He cant shut down a team defensively.

Most of these other guys I've named could do that. Not every minute of every game. But often and often when it mattered. Maybe Makar will one day. But he;s not there yet.

And you don't need to be 6'5. It helps. But it's not a requirement.

And I think you are selling Pietrangelo's defense way short.

 

[brakeyawself]

Yeah I’d say he’s as good as Pietrangelo defensively and significantly better offensively. Again I still don’t get what issues you think he has defensively? If he was 6’2” would you have the same impression?

I'll put it like this. I love Brian Leetch. He might be my favorite player ever. But he's not the greatest Dman ever. He was one of the greatest offensive Dmen of his generation and above average defensively. Didn;t make a lot of mistakes etc...

And that's how I would compare Makar right now, more to Leetch. Or Erik Karlsson.

But he wasn't Lidstrom and he wasn't Pronger. And I think Hedman, maybe not quite Lidstrom or Pronger. Near that kind of player in his prime. At least for this generation, there weren;t a ton of guys that can compare. All though the Pronger -Lidstrom era might have really had some of the all time greatest, complete Dmen ever. So it might not be fair.

To me an elite Dman is a guy who can control the game from the back end, shut down teams, and be a top PP guy. Doesn't need to score 80 points. But like 50ish is good enough if you can provide shut down dominating D. And I think Seider has more of that in him than Makar.

I would rather have the guy who can shut down teams and control a game from the back end while putting up 50+ points a season, than the guy who cant shut down the game and control it from the back end, but puts up 80 points in a season. AND look at the top Dmen who have won cups over the years...... most had a dominating shut down guy. Karlsson never challenged really, Leetch won once and it was kind of a miracle. Well, plus he had some awesome D partners and Messier etc.. Um, Pietrangelo, Doughty can take their D game to that level when need be. Letang even. Keith could do it occasionally. And I think you usually need that to win a Cup. Which is the goal IMO. Not to just rack up points and not make mistakes.