Michael Dal Colle (C/LW)

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

If taking Reinhart was a waste, then either you think Barzal's a waste or you are continuing to ignore that picking Reinhart resulted in us getting Barzal.

Taking Reinhart was not a waste.

Taking Reinhart was a big mistake, as were a number of other high draft picks we made in that same era.

I would like it if our front office did not make big mistakes.

The fact that they later made a good move with Reinhart—that means their big mistake ultimately did not result in a "waste"—does not change the fact that I wish our front office didn't repeatedly make big mistakes with important draft picks.

 

[Seph]

Taking Reinhart was not a waste.

Taking Reinhart was a big mistake, as were a number of other high draft picks we made in that same era.

I would like it if our front office did not make big mistakes.

The fact that they later made a good move with Reinhart—that means their big mistake ultimately did not result in a "waste"—does not change the fact that I wish our front office didn't repeatedly make big mistakes with important draft picks.

Cool, I'd just rather have Barzal. If being angry about not having Rielly is more important to you, that's your prerogative. I just think having Barzal is more important is all.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

Cool, I'd just rather have Barzal. If being angry about not having Rielly is more important to you, that's your prerogative. I just think having Barzal is more important is all.

I agree that I'd rather have Barzal?

I don't know what you're getting out of trying to play word games to make me out to be a dumb-dumb on a hockey forum.

 

[Seph]

I agree that I'd rather have Barzal?

I don't know what you're getting out of trying to play word games to make me out to be a dumb-dumb on a hockey forum.

No word games. Just stating one man's opinion. I'm glad that we made the moves to get Barzal, as I think we're a better team having made those moves than if we hadn't, moves that lead to us being a better team are a good thing in my mind. You disagree on that, and that's cool too.

 

[enigmatic]

seph, you are being ridiculous--you can be upset with snows drafting and be happy that he pulled a rabbit out of his hat with the barzal trade at the same time--you are a smart poster--i think you totally get what barnaby is getting at...

 

[Seph]

I don't think it's at all ridiculous to be happy we have Barzal instead of Rielly, but again, that's just my opinion, you are welcome to differ on that.

 

[enigmatic]

I don't think it's at all ridiculous to be happy we have Barzal instead of Rielly, but again, that's just my opinion, you are welcome to differ on that.

whatever, im not going to argue with you--i dont think one person in this thread is saying we would rather have rielly--goodnight

 

[Seph]

whatever, im not going to argue with you--i dont think one person in this thread is saying we would rather have rielly--goodnight

Then why would your prefer we had made a move that would have resulted in us having Rielly instead of Barzal?

 

[BarBeauWahlDobLok]

Then why would your prefer we had made a move that would have resulted in us having Rielly instead of Barzal?

I have to agree with this.

If we still had G. Reinhart, yeah, I'd be wishing we had Morgan Reilly.

I'm not so sure we would have had the opportunity to pick Chiarelli's pocket if we had drafted Reilly.

No, I don't think Reinhart was drafted with the intentions of flipping him for what turned out to be 2 first round picks, but it's not the mistakes you make, it's how you fix them.

 

[Seph]

I have to agree with this.

If we still had G. Reinhart, yeah, I'd be wishing we had Morgan Reilly.

I'm not so sure we would have had the opportunity to pick Chiarelli's pocket if we had drafted Reilly.

No, I don't think Reinhart was drafted with the intentions of flipping him for what turned out to be 2 first round picks, but it's not the mistakes you make, it's how you fix them.

Yeah, I just don't get the anger.
My attitude is as simple as "moves that make us a better team make me happy as a fan." I'm not all that concerned with how smart we look along the way; any move that results in us a better team makes me happy.

This is a move that made us a better team, so I'm happy it was made. If people want to be upset about us being a better team simply because it didn't make us also look smart, then they sound a lot like the criticisms of Snow, frankly.

 

[majormet]

How bad is MDC

10			Michael Dal Colle	LW	BRI	23	2	8	10	1	16	0	0	0.43	0.70	41	0	2	0	0.0
11			Ross Johnston	LW	BRI	23	1	6	7	-5	97	0	0	0.30	4.22	25	0	0	0	0.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That bad, not much better than Mr Johnston LOL

 

[Spybot]

Yeah, I just don't get the anger.
My attitude is as simple as "moves that make us a better team make me happy as a fan." I'm not all that concerned with how smart we look along the way; any move that results in us a better team makes me happy.

This is a move that made us a better team, so I'm happy it was made. If people want to be upset about us being a better team simply because it didn't make us also look smart, then they sound a lot like the criticisms of Snow, frankly.

Snow didn't draft Barzal instead of Rielly. Snow didn't draft Reinhart with the intention of trading him for Barzal. He gets bad marks for drafting Reinhart, good marks for salvaging the situation. These are two separate events. Impossible to know he wouldn't have been able to trade for Barzal without Reinhart either. I mean I could claim signing Brian Strait made us draft Barzal, because he was helping keep Reinhart out of the lineup and Edmonton couldn't figure out Reinhart would bust. You could virtually pick any bad decision Snow made in the past and call it good. I really don't see any controversy in being unhappy with Snow's drafting in general, but being happy that this one time he was able to make a great decision.

 

[enigmatic]

Snow didn't draft Barzal instead of Rielly. Snow didn't draft Reinhart with the intention of trading him for Barzal. He gets bad marks for drafting Reinhart, good marks for salvaging the situation. These are two separate events. Impossible to know he wouldn't have been able to trade for Barzal without Reinhart either. I mean I could claim signing Brian Strait made us draft Barzal, because he was helping keep Reinhart out of the lineup and Edmonton couldn't figure out Reinhart would bust. You could virtually pick any bad decision Snow made in the past and call it good. I really don't see any controversy in being unhappy with Snow's drafting in general, but being happy that this one time he was able to make a great decision.

this--i dont understand how it is hard to comprehend--it is very rare that a terrible draft choice will work out well and become a salvageable situation...you can be ecstatic with the trade and still be able to say that snow has had a horrendous drafting record in the 1st round---i think we need periferal to chime in here--i think he would be on our side..

 

[Seph]

Snow didn't draft Barzal instead of Rielly. Snow didn't draft Reinhart with the intention of trading him for Barzal. He gets bad marks for drafting Reinhart, good marks for salvaging the situation. These are two separate events. Impossible to know he wouldn't have been able to trade for Barzal without Reinhart either. I mean I could claim signing Brian Strait made us draft Barzal, because he was helping keep Reinhart out of the lineup and Edmonton couldn't figure out Reinhart would bust. You could virtually pick any bad decision Snow made in the past and call it good. I really don't see any controversy in being unhappy with Snow's drafting in general, but being happy that this one time he was able to make a great decision.

It's pretty obvious to me that acquiring Reinhart was absolutely necessary in order to trade for the Barzal pick in a way that acquiring Strait doesn't even come close to, but if you don't think so, then that's your prerogative, I suppose. But if you really do think that's true, then I suppose I'm glad we got Strait too, as that's absolutely worth Barzal as well.

It's not about intent, it's about results, and in this case the results of the move were good. Do you also get upset when we score a goal off a lucky bounce that wasn't intended? I just don't see why one would prefer we'd drafted Rielly knowing it means we almost certainly end up with the worse results of not having Barzal. Still waiting for someone to answer that question.

 

[burana800]

Sorry I thought this was the MDC thread. Carry on.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

It's pretty obvious to me that acquiring Reinhart was absolutely necessary in order to trade for the Barzal pick in a way that acquiring Strait doesn't even come close to, but if you don't think so, then that's your prerogative, I suppose. But if you really do think that's true, then I suppose I'm glad we got Strait too, as that's absolutely worth Barzal as well.

It's not about intent, it's about results, and in this case the results of the move were good. Do you also get upset when we score a goal off a lucky bounce that wasn't intended? I just don't see why one would prefer we'd drafted Rielly knowing it means we almost certainly end up with the worse results of not having Barzal. Still waiting for someone to answer that question.

If you say so!

 

[BarBeauWahlDobLok]

Snow didn't draft Barzal instead of Rielly. Snow didn't draft Reinhart with the intention of trading him for Barzal. He gets bad marks for drafting Reinhart, good marks for salvaging the situation. These are two separate events. Impossible to know he wouldn't have been able to trade for Barzal without Reinhart either. I mean I could claim signing Brian Strait made us draft Barzal, because he was helping keep Reinhart out of the lineup and Edmonton couldn't figure out Reinhart would bust. You could virtually pick any bad decision Snow made in the past and call it good. I really don't see any controversy in being unhappy with Snow's drafting in general, but being happy that this one time he was able to make a great decision.

I really think too much focal emphasis is put on off-ice matters. Yeah, there are a lot of duds on draft day, especially with the hype surrounding any first round pick.

When assessing Snow's first round picks, only Tavares and Barzal are worthy of their first round selections. Bailey, de Haan, Niedereitter, Nelon, Strome, Reinhart, Pulock, Michael Dal Colle, Josh Ho-Sang, and Anthony Beauvillier have all put forth performances of players who could have been taken in the 2nd round or later, in retrospect. But in fairness to all GMs and first round picks throughout the league, very rarely to first round picks turn out to play like first round picks.

Even the wonderful Bill Torrey had first round duds. His last good pick was Pat LaFontaine in 1983. After that, Duncan McPhearson suffered an injury and busted. Yes, he died in 1989, but his NHL career was long over by then. Then the dynamic duo of Derek King and Brad Dalgarno were drafted. Derek King had a nice few years, and Brad Dalgarno struggled to make any impact in the NHL. Tom Fitzergald was a nice player, but he wasn't a player who needed to be taken in the first round, in retrospect. Dean Chynoweth played like a mid round pick, certainly not a first rounder. Kevin Cheveldayoff never played an NHL game. David Chyzowski was a player the Islanders had high hopes for, but was arguably mishandled and saw his career fizzle. Scott Scissions is the consummate whipping boy for first round laughers. Scott LaChance was serviceable, though maligned. Darius Kasparaitis was first round worthy. So, he was Torrey's last good first round pick, but it took nine years for him to make another good one. And perhaps, that's being generous.

The draft is very stressful for GMs. Very rarely do redrafts work in their favor. Sometimes the pundits get it right, other times they get it wrong. Pierre Maguire went berserk when Robert Nilsson was taken over Zach Parise, but he also went berserk in similar fashion when the Montreal Canadiens took Carey Price with their fifth pick in 2005.

I'm not protecting Garth Snow or any GM, but to say, "He's an idiot for taking Griffin Reinhart in the first place" is purely playing the result of that draft. Good pick or bad pick, it worked out. Do you think Oiler fans are happy with the trade? Their GM traded for the guy who Snow is being for chastised for drafting. Yeah, I think Snow is heavily flawed, but I'm not going to dog him for drafting a guy who got us a potential franchise player and another guy who could turn out to be really good.

 

[Spybot]

It's pretty obvious to me that acquiring Reinhart was absolutely necessary in order to trade for the Barzal pick in a way that acquiring Strait doesn't even come close to, but if you don't think so, then that's your prerogative, I suppose. But if you really do think that's true, then I suppose I'm glad we got Strait too, as that's absolutely worth Barzal as well.

It's not very obvious to me. The Islanders weren't just offloading Reinhart to the highest bidder (and they happened to trade him for a 1st), they were actively trying to trade for Barzal (who they thought was a top 10 player if I remember correctly). Furthermore, there are numerous Oilers fans adamant that Chiarelli didn't like Barzal and would have drafted Svechnikov or Chabot. Did the Jets prefer Connor or Barzal? How far would he have fallen and how many teams would have been willing to trade their picks? I don't know. Being so sure that this is absolutely the only way the Islanders could have gotten Barzal is strange to me.

I just don't see why one would prefer we'd drafted Rielly knowing it means we almost certainly end up with the worse results of not having Barzal.

I don't know what the result would be today if we had drafted Reilly. I could just as well claim that drafting Rielly would have been more than enough to beat the caps in 2015 and the Islanders would have then won the cup. Is THAT worth not having Barzal? But again, nobody knows these things. These are the only things I know and I can evaluate -

Snow made an excellent choice when he traded up for Barzal.
Reinhart was a poor 4th overall and Snow was very wrong when he thought he would become a great NHL player.

I also should note that I think you're focusing more on the result of this one pick whereas posters like MatthewBarnabysTears were originally more focused on evaluating Snow in general. In this one case the result is good and nobody's disagreeing with that. However, if Snow was better at identifying talent, we wouldn't be discussing Barzal anyway as we'd have Ehlers, Rielly, Zibanejed etc. and we'd be content.

 

[Spybot]

Good pick or bad pick, it worked out. Do you think Oiler fans are happy with the trade? Their GM traded for the guy who Snow is being for chastised for drafting. Yeah, I think Snow is heavily flawed, but I'm not going to dog him for drafting a guy who got us a potential franchise player and another guy who could turn out to be really good.

You say "Good pick or bad pick, it worked out", I say "bad pick, but it worked out" Not much difference I suppose. All I'm saying here is Snow should be criticized for his drafting and praised for the Barzal trade. He didn't plan to trade Reinhart when he drafted him so he shouldn't get credit for the whole sequence as if he had planned it all along.

 

[BarBeauWahlDobLok]

You say "Good pick or bad pick, it worked out", I say "bad pick, but it worked out" Not much difference I suppose. All I'm saying here is Snow should be criticized for his drafting and praised for the Barzal trade. He didn't plan to trade Reinhart when he drafted him so he shouldn't get credit for the whole sequence as if he had planned it all along.

Yes, I said he didn't plan on trading for Barzal when he drafted Reinhart in an earlier post. It worked out, so does it really matter?

 

[Spybot]

Yes, I said he didn't plan on trading for Barzal when he drafted Reinhart in an earlier post. It worked out, so does it really matter?

Well it matters if you're trying to evaluate him as a GM. Here's where he went wrong, here's where he went right.

 

[BarBeauWahlDobLok]

Well it matters if you're trying to evaluate him as a GM. Here's where he went wrong, here's where he went right.

If you're evaluating him as a GM, he has to be given full marks for turning that pick into two NHL players. Being a GM isn't all about drafting, and GMs rely heavily on their scouts at the draft. GMs aren't the ones scouting draft eligibles, that's what scouts are for.

 

[steveat]

It's pretty obvious to me that acquiring Reinhart was absolutely necessary in order to trade for the Barzal pick in a way that acquiring Strait doesn't even come close to, but if you don't think so, then that's your prerogative, I suppose. But if you really do think that's true, then I suppose I'm glad we got Strait too, as that's absolutely worth Barzal as well.

It's not about intent, it's about results, and in this case the results of the move were good. Do you also get upset when we score a goal off a lucky bounce that wasn't intended? I just don't see why one would prefer we'd drafted Rielly knowing it means we almost certainly end up with the worse results of not having Barzal. Still waiting for someone to answer that question.

I agree too, but people forget and they only see the surface of the issue without diving in.

It's not only draft picks, but trades in general..the bad ones aren't that bad after all..a la the Vanek trade with Montreal which also helped to bring Ho-Sang into the club...so that wasn't a waste either AND the team saved money at the same time. Wang's business practices may seem immediately annoying and painful, but long term, they are actually very stable decisions.

 

[steveat]

I really think too much focal emphasis is put on off-ice matters. Yeah, there are a lot of duds on draft day, especially with the hype surrounding any first round pick.

When assessing Snow's first round picks, only Tavares and Barzal are worthy of their first round selections. Bailey, de Haan, Niedereitter, Nelon, Strome, Reinhart, Pulock, Michael Dal Colle, Josh Ho-Sang, and Anthony Beauvillier have all put forth performances of players who could have been taken in the 2nd round or later, in retrospect. But in fairness to all GMs and first round picks throughout the league, very rarely to first round picks turn out to play like first round picks.

Even the wonderful Bill Torrey had first round duds. His last good pick was Pat LaFontaine in 1983. After that, Duncan McPhearson suffered an injury and busted. Yes, he died in 1989, but his NHL career was long over by then. Then the dynamic duo of Derek King and Brad Dalgarno were drafted. Derek King had a nice few years, and Brad Dalgarno struggled to make any impact in the NHL. Tom Fitzergald was a nice player, but he wasn't a player who needed to be taken in the first round, in retrospect. Dean Chynoweth played like a mid round pick, certainly not a first rounder. Kevin Cheveldayoff never played an NHL game. David Chyzowski was a player the Islanders had high hopes for, but was arguably mishandled and saw his career fizzle. Scott Scissions is the consummate whipping boy for first round laughers. Scott LaChance was serviceable, though maligned. Darius Kasparaitis was first round worthy. So, he was Torrey's last good first round pick, but it took nine years for him to make another good one. And perhaps, that's being generous.

The draft is very stressful for GMs. Very rarely do redrafts work in their favor. Sometimes the pundits get it right, other times they get it wrong. Pierre Maguire went berserk when Robert Nilsson was taken over Zach Parise, but he also went berserk in similar fashion when the Montreal Canadiens took Carey Price with their fifth pick in 2005.

I'm not protecting Garth Snow or any GM, but to say, "He's an idiot for taking Griffin Reinhart in the first place" is purely playing the result of that draft. Good pick or bad pick, it worked out. Do you think Oiler fans are happy with the trade? Their GM traded for the guy who Snow is being for chastised for drafting. Yeah, I think Snow is heavily flawed, but I'm not going to dog him for drafting a guy who got us a potential franchise player and another guy who could turn out to be really good.

Don't forget about Berard and Spezza

 

[Seph]

It's not very obvious to me. The Islanders weren't just offloading Reinhart to the highest bidder (and they happened to trade him for a 1st), they were actively trying to trade for Barzal (who they thought was a top 10 player if I remember correctly). Furthermore, there are numerous Oilers fans adamant that Chiarelli didn't like Barzal and would have drafted Svechnikov or Chabot. Did the Jets prefer Connor or Barzal? How far would he have fallen and how many teams would have been willing to trade their picks? I don't know. Being so sure that this is absolutely the only way the Islanders could have gotten Barzal is strange to me.

I don't know what the result would be today if we had drafted Reilly. I could just as well claim that drafting Rielly would have been more than enough to beat the caps in 2015 and the Islanders would have then won the cup. Is THAT worth not having Barzal? But again, nobody knows these things. These are the only things I know and I can evaluate -

If turning the pick directly into Barzal is not something we know and can evaluate, then I don't even know how we can have opinions about any of Snow's moves, frankly. If you have no opinion on what would've happened had we not made the moves we did, in what way can we even discuss what moves would've been better? And if we can't say a move would be better, then how can we call any move horrible?

Snow made an excellent choice when he traded up for Barzal.
Reinhart was a poor 4th overall and Snow was very wrong when he thought he would become a great NHL player.

I also should note that I think you're focusing more on the result of this one pick whereas posters like MatthewBarnabysTears were originally more focused on evaluating Snow in general. In this one case the result is good and nobody's disagreeing with that. However, if Snow was better at identifying talent, we wouldn't be discussing Barzal anyway as we'd have Ehlers, Rielly, Zibanejed etc. and we'd be content.

I tend to judge most things on results. I don't see why one would be upset about anything they feel impacted them preferably. I'm focused on this particular pick because the post I responded to was saying it's nuts to be OK with this particular pick, and I disagree with that.

If you'd prefer switch to evaluating Snow as a GM as a whole, I would also do that based on his results rather than looking at individual moves. Instead of Ehlers, Rielly, Zibanejad we have Barzal, Beauvillier and Eberle, which also doesn't piss me off. It may not be perfect, but I don't know of any GM who is perfect at the draft either, so it's close enough for me to be content. Moreover, I'm currently pretty happy with the team, so I'm more positive on Snow than usual, but moving forward I also recognize that a ton of that hinges on what happens this spring and even more on what happens this summer, and I have no real predictions on those right now, so things are also up in the air a bit.