Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

[Turin]

I suspect exactly that if McDavid ends up dominating the league way more than Crosby his competition will start being downplayed. Not like it's a new thing as Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin have all been downplayed due to supposedly having much easier competition than in the 90s. It will happen when the next great player enters the league as well because humans just enjoy nostalgizing the past.

Okay, but we’ll have to see I guess. It’s not a given that his competition will be better. It’s pretty clear that neither Laine or Matthews or Eichel are dominant offensive players like the previous big three. Maybe they’re on a different development curve, but for now it doesn’t look like it. Or maybe there will be a surprise player or two later on.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

LOL all i heard all offseason was oilers are going to the final or winning the cup, now those same people are saying his teammates suck

did somebody seriously call ryan whitney a great player? peter sykora in 2008 a great player?

 

[GreatGonzo]

LOL all i heard all offseason was oilers are going to the final or winning the cup, now those same people are saying his teammates suck

did somebody seriously call ryan whitney a great player? peter sykora in 2008 a great player?

Malkin alone is enough of an argument to make for the whole team success argument. He was the best player when they won the cup in ‘09.

I think Sykora and Whitney were better for the Pens than half the Oilers right now, but in the end Crosby had Malkin on the 2nd line(who can carry anyone), Staal on the 3rd(great defensive forward) with Letang on defense and Fleury in goal. Don’t forget Hossa being on Crosby’s wing.

Again, we can’t compare their teams. McDavid is the Oilers

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Malkin alone is enough of an argument to make for the whole team success argument. He was the best player when they won the cup in ‘09.

I think Sykora and Whitney were better for the Pens than half the Oilers right now, but in the end Crosby had Malkin on the 2nd line(who can carry anyone), Staal on the 3rd(great defensive forward) with Letang on defense and Fleury in goal. Don’t forget Hossa being on Crosby’s wing.

Again, we can’t compare their teams. McDavid is the Oilers

Letang?? Are you serious? Letang was far from being the dominant D he is in 2008.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Letang?? Are you serious? Letang was far from being the dominant D he is in 2008.

I was referring to 2009. He may not have come into his own fully, but he was still better than most the defensemen the oilers have.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I was referring to 2009. He may not have come into his own fully, but he was still better than most the defensemen the oilers have.

This poll is for the first 3 seasons, what does 2009 have to do with anything?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I was referring to 2009. He may not have come into his own fully, but he was still better than most the defensemen the oilers have.

On par with pre-injury Klefbom.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Malkin alone is enough of an argument to make for the whole team success argument. He was the best player when they won the cup in ‘09.

I think Sykora and Whitney were better for the Pens than half the Oilers right now, but in the end Crosby had Malkin on the 2nd line(who can carry anyone), Staal on the 3rd(great defensive forward) with Letang on defense and Fleury in goal. Don’t forget Hossa being on Crosby’s wing.

Again, we can’t compare their teams. McDavid is the Oilers

i thought drai was supposed to be an elite player, crosby was better than malkin in the first 2 series

sykora didn't dress for many playoff games, i don't even remember whitney on that 08 playoff run he was far from a difference maker he was just a guy

letang was a role player, the pens were a contender long before hossa showed up and he missed games with injury after the trade

if we can't compare their teams than why were so many people predicting the oilers to win the cup?

whether we can compare the teams or not, there is no debate crosby had the better first 3 seasons

 

[Future GOAT]

Malkin alone is enough of an argument to make for the whole team success argument. He was the best player when they won the cup in ‘09.

I think Sykora and Whitney were better for the Pens than half the Oilers right now, but in the end Crosby had Malkin on the 2nd line(who can carry anyone), Staal on the 3rd(great defensive forward) with Letang on defense and Fleury in goal. Don’t forget Hossa being on Crosby’s wing.

Again, we can’t compare their teams. McDavid is the Oilers

Well said.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

No matter how you try to break it down to favor a certain player the final results for those 3 season stand as,
Crosby 213 GP- 294 PTS = 1.38ppg average
Mc David 205 GP-251 PTS =1.22 ppg average.
The final stats put Crosby slightly ahead.

i thought drai was supposed to be an elite player, crosby was better than malkin in the first 2 series

sykora didn't dress for many playoff games, i don't even remember whitney on that 08 playoff run he was far from a difference maker he was just a guy

letang was a role player, the pens were a contender long before hossa showed up and he missed games with injury after the trade

if we can't compare their teams than why were so many people predicting the oilers to win the cup?

whether we can compare the teams or not, there is no debate crosby had the better first 3 seasons

Sure if you want to throw objectivity out the window. Heres more facts

05-07 Penguins = 750 goals for
15-17 Oilers = 663 goals for

Crosby games played (213) as a % of total games (246) in 3 yrs = .86
McDavid games played (205) as a % of total games (246) in 3 yrs = .83

Crosby points 294
McDavid points 251

Crosby offensive involvement, factoring in games played % = (294 pts /750 team goals)/.86 = 45.5
McDavid offensive involvement, factoring in games played % =(251 pts/663 team goals)/.83 = 45.6

Crosbys PP ice time as a % of total ice time 27%
McDavids PP ice time as a % of total ice time 14%

McDavid slight edge in total teams offensive involvement even when his ice time is not nearly as favorable as Crosbys.

Crosby with nearly double the PP time should really be providing more of his teams offense.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Malkin alone is enough of an argument to make for the whole team success argument. He was the best player when they won the cup in ‘09.

I think Sykora and Whitney were better for the Pens than half the Oilers right now, but in the end Crosby had Malkin on the 2nd line(who can carry anyone), Staal on the 3rd(great defensive forward) with Letang on defense and Fleury in goal. Don’t forget Hossa being on Crosby’s wing.

Again, we can’t compare their teams. McDavid is the Oilers

Why do guys like Draisaitl and RNH suddenly become complete garbage whenever they're brought up in relation to McDavid, yet I bet if I made a trade proposal on the Trade forum offering anything less than a premium package for either guy, Oilers fans would roast me for it?

And did you really include Hossa as part of Crosby's edge? The same Hossa who played like 12 regular season games? He had a huge impact on Crosby's first 3 seasons?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Why do guys like Draisaitl and RNH suddenly become complete garbage whenever they're brought up in relation to McDavid, yet I bet if I made a trade proposal on the Trade forum offering anything less than a premium package for either guy, Oilers fans would roast me for it?

And did you really include Hossa as part of Crosby's edge? The same Hossa who played like 12 regular season games? He had a huge impact on Crosby's first 3 seasons?

Yeah Hossa and Crosby played 4 games together in the RS. That poster is just throwing out names instead of looking at who he played with.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This poll is for the first 3 seasons, what does 2009 have to do with anything?

Because 09 has been getting brought up.....

i thought drai was supposed to be an elite player, crosby was better than malkin in the first 2 series

sykora didn't dress for many playoff games, i don't even remember whitney on that 08 playoff run he was far from a difference maker he was just a guy

letang was a role player, the pens were a contender long before hossa showed up and he missed games with injury after the trade

if we can't compare their teams than why were so many people predicting the oilers to win the cup?

whether we can compare the teams or not, there is no debate crosby had the better first 3 seasons

But he wasn’t was he? So in the end that point is dead and buried. Does it matter? He plays with a generational talent and one of the best playoff performers in the game today. It’s silly to try to suggest or dance around that, in the end, Malkin was just as impactful as Crosby his first 3 seasons, but Crosby doesn’t have any playoff success without him. Talk to me when McDavid gets that kind of support.

Sykora and Whitney were past their primes, but still decent. They weren’t wet behind the years when it came to the playoffs, my point was that they were still in many better than most of the Oilers team, and that says something.

Hossa was 2nd in points and first in goals in the 08 post season, and yes Letang didn’t started gaining ground as a player until later, but he was still a good defenseman in 09.

I think your over exaggerating the amount of people that really thought they would win. Because a lot of people were calling for a stanley cup right away with Crosby? I remember 07, they most definitely weren’t supposed to simply be bounced in the 1st round. In the end the Oilers over achieved and fell back to earth, the difference is that McDavid remained consistent, while the rest of the team didn’t.

Of course it’s a debate. The only reason why it wouldn’t be is due to better playoff success, which is directly due to him having a better supporting cast. Player to player, it’s close....and Crosby definitely doesn’t just walk away ahead. You can’t compare their playoff success to the individuals.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why do guys like Draisaitl and RNH suddenly become complete garbage whenever they're brought up in relation to McDavid, yet I bet if I made a trade proposal on the Trade forum offering anything less than a premium package for either guy, Oilers fans would roast me for it?

And did you really include Hossa as part of Crosby's edge? The same Hossa who played like 12 regular season games? He had a huge impact on Crosby's first 3 seasons?

You tell me. Do you honestly believe those guys have been playing at a level that was expected? I sure don’t. So ya compared to McDavid they have been...

Clearly context isn’t your strong suit. I was talking about his playoff run in 08, the same Hossa who had 12 goals and 26 points. Sort of like how Malkin had 10 goals and 22 points as well. Yet people want to ignore all this and act like Crosby was the soul reason for their newly playoff success.....was he a big part? Absolutely, but this isn’t basketball. One player doesn’t have that big of an impact. Crosby has had help, and more of it than McDavid.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You tell me. Do you honestly believe those guys have been playing at a level that was expected? I sure don’t. So ya compared to McDavid they have been...

What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here in response to me asking why Draisaitl and RNH are suddenly garbage in threads propping up McDavid.

Clearly context isn’t your strong suit. I was talking about his playoff run in 08, the same Hossa who had 12 goals and 26 points. Sort of like how Malkin had 10 goals and 22 points as well. Yet people want to ignore all this and act like Crosby was the soul reason for their newly playoff success.....was he a big part? Absolutely, but this isn’t basketball. One player doesn’t have that big of an impact. Crosby has had help, and more of it than McDavid.

You mean like Draisaitl scoring 16 points in 13 games last year? McDavid finished 3rd on his team in points last playoffs behind Draisaitl and Mark friggin' Letestu. Maybe if he produced more than 9 points in 13 games, they might have gotten further? Because Draisaitl certainly did his job, and more.

So why is it whenever Crosby actually holds up his end of the bargin (ie. producing like his team needs/requires of him to help them go deep), it's dismissed as "oh well, he had help. Doesn't count as an edge over McDavid"? If Crosby in 2008 produced as little as McDavid did last year in the playoffs, the Pens don't get to the finals regardless of how Malkin or Hossa plays.

 

[GreatGonzo]

What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here in response to me asking why Draisaitl and RNH are suddenly garbage in threads propping up McDavid.



You mean like Draisaitl scoring 16 points in 13 games last year? McDavid finished 3rd on his team in points last playoffs behind Draisaitl and Mark friggin' Letestu. Maybe if he produced more than 9 points in 13 games, they might have gotten further? Because Draisaitl certainly did his job, and more.

So why is it whenever Crosby actually holds up his end of the bargin (ie. producing like his team needs/requires of him to help them go deep), it's dismissed as "oh well, he had help. Doesn't count as an edge over McDavid"? If Crosby in 2008 produced as little as McDavid did last year in the playoffs, the Pens don't get to the finals regardless of how Malkin or Hossa plays.

They aren’t Garbage, they just aren’t the greatest supporting cast. Sort of like how many are giving Crosby the nod for having the better first 3 seasons because of playoff success, yet are totally delusional to the fact that he had the better supporting cast than McDavid.

That’s nice, but look where we are now. McDavid in the same place he was last season, while the team around him is a mess, what does that tell you? Hard to say, maybe they would, maybe the wouldn’t have. In the end, it was His first post season, I expect him to be a lot better next time around.

Because it’s a team sport and you should understand that saying he had help doesn’t take away anything from him as a player, just that he saw better days in the post season his first few years in the league BECAUSE he had the supporting cast. Crosby or McDavid can score 150 points in a season, if they don’t have that extra support, they aren’t winning anything come playoff time.

Crosby could have produced twice as much as he did that year, he still doesn’t see the finals without Malkin or Hossa. I mean through the first 2 rounds....

Malkin: 9-6-8-14
Crosby: 9-2-12-14
Hossa: 9-5-5-10
Malone: 9-3-6-9

Rounds 3 and 4
Hossa: 11-7-9-16
Crosby: 11-4-9-13
Gonchar: 11-0-9-9
Malkin: 11-4-4-8

No one is debating how much Crosby helped his team Advance, and no one is saying that McDavid wasn’t underwhelming. But as you can clearly see, Malkin had 6 goals and 14 points through those first 2 rounds....even Hossa in the later Rounds went on a spree....isn’t it safe to say that if they don’t produce the way he did, they don’t advance as well?

All I’m saying is you can’t hold it against McDavid for his team lack of playoff success, much like you can’t give Crosby all the credit for his. Sure, Crosby played great when it mattered, but that doesn’t change the fact that he too had players play better than him, and that’s what it takes a lot of the time.

 

[daver]

Malkin had more points in his rookie year than Drai has ever had....it's not even a contest which addition is bigger.

By this thinking, Crosby had way more points than McDavid in a season so close its not even a contest.

 

[daver]

They aren’t Garbage, they just aren’t the greatest supporting cast. Sort of like how many are giving Crosby the nod for having the better first 3 seasons because of playoff success, yet are totally delusional to the fact that he had the better supporting cast than McDavid.

That’s nice, but look where we are now. McDavid in the same place he was last season, while the team around him is a mess, what does that tell you? Hard to say, maybe they would, maybe the wouldn’t have. In the end, it was His first post season, I expect him to be a lot better next time around.

Because it’s a team sport and you should understand that saying he had help doesn’t take away anything from him as a player, just that he saw better days in the post season his first few years in the league BECAUSE he had the supporting cast. Crosby or McDavid can score 150 points in a season, if they don’t have that extra support, they aren’t winning anything come playoff time.

Crosby could have produced twice as much as he did that year, he still doesn’t see the finals without Malkin or Hossa. I mean through the first 2 rounds....

Malkin: 9-6-8-14
Crosby: 9-2-12-14
Hossa: 9-5-5-10
Malone: 9-3-6-9

Rounds 3 and 4
Hossa: 11-7-9-16
Crosby: 11-4-9-13
Gonchar: 11-0-9-9
Malkin: 11-4-4-8

No one is debating how much Crosby helped his team Advance, and no one is saying that McDavid wasn’t underwhelming. But as you can clearly see, Malkin had 6 goals and 14 points through those first 2 rounds....even Hossa in the later Rounds went on a spree....isn’t it safe to say that if they don’t produce the way he did, they don’t advance as well?

All I’m saying is you can’t hold it against McDavid for his team lack of playoff success, much like you can’t give Crosby all the credit for his. Sure, Crosby played great when it mattered, but that doesn’t change the fact that he too had players play better than him, and that’s what it takes a lot of the time.

What does this have to do with Crosby being the better playoff performer because he lead his team in scoring in both of his playoff campaigns, and the league once, while McDavid was 3rd on his team, and 19th in the league in PPG (after 2 rounds).

It is inarguable that Crosby was the better playoff performer regardless of their respective supporting casts.

 

[daver]

[mod]

I suspect exactly that if McDavid ends up dominating the league way more than Crosby his competition will start being downplayed. Not like it's a new thing as Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin have all been downplayed due to supposedly having much easier competition than in the 90s. It will happen when the next great player enters the league as well because humans just enjoy nostalgizing the past.

That's quite the hypothetical strawman you have laid out for absolutely no reason.

 

[daver]

Basically your point is that Malkin's first year=Drai's 3rd year and I would say this is nonsense, Malkin was a better player at EVERY step of the way hence Crosby shouldn't get complete credit for the turnout nor is the turnout as drastic as it seems when you factor in that they lost 14 games in OT the previous year or when you compare it to the 35 point Oiler turnaround.

What are you basing this on? Statistically Drai was 8th in points vs. 18th for Malkin and Drai was the better playoff performer than Malkin in 07 and 08.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

What are you basing this on? Statistically Drai was 8th in points vs. 18th for Malkin and Drai was the better playoff performer than Malkin in 07 and 08.

Disagree

 

[daver]

Disagree

Well, Malkin finished with the 5th best PPG (T6th for min. of ten games). Draisatl was first in PPG (min. of ten games). Malkin's PPG did drop considerably after the 2nd round though so I guess we can go with that they were close.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Draisaitl had 16 PTS in 13 GP after two rounds
Malkin had 14 PTS in 9 GP after two rounds. He had a bad final round (3 in 6 if I remember) It is also proven that scoring is harder in the last 2 rounds. (Malkin finished with 22 in 20)

Im not gonna go into details or any advanced stats, but it’s definitely arguable in my opinion.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Well, Malkin finished with the 5th best PPG (T6th for min. of ten games). Draisatl was first in PPG (min. of ten games). Malkin's PPG did drop considerably after the 2nd round though so I guess we can go with that they were close.

Post above, I forgot quoting

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They aren’t Garbage, they just aren’t the greatest supporting cast. Sort of like how many are giving Crosby the nod for having the better first 3 seasons because of playoff success, yet are totally delusional to the fact that he had the better supporting cast than McDavid.

Draisaitl is better than any player Crosby played with his first 3 seasons other than Malkin, and arguably Hossa. To continue to argue like Draisaitl is simply decent is to basically refuse to acknowledge how good he is.

That's also ignoring the fact that, coming into this season, HF collectively voted the Oilers as the 2nd favorite to win the Cup this year. Yet, now that they had a dreadful year and missed the playoffs, we're back to hearing how McDavid has no one to play with.

That’s nice, but look where we are now. McDavid in the same place he was last season, while the team around him is a mess, what does that tell you? Hard to say, maybe they would, maybe the wouldn’t have. In the end, it was His first post season, I expect him to be a lot better next time around.

Because it’s a team sport and you should understand that saying he had help doesn’t take away anything from him as a player, just that he saw better days in the post season his first few years in the league BECAUSE he had the supporting cast. Crosby or McDavid can score 150 points in a season, if they don’t have that extra support, they aren’t winning anything come playoff time.

Crosby could have produced twice as much as he did that year, he still doesn’t see the finals without Malkin or Hossa. I mean through the first 2 rounds....

Malkin: 9-6-8-14
Crosby: 9-2-12-14
Hossa: 9-5-5-10
Malone: 9-3-6-9

Rounds 3 and 4
Hossa: 11-7-9-16
Crosby: 11-4-9-13
Gonchar: 11-0-9-9
Malkin: 11-4-4-8

No one is debating how much Crosby helped his team Advance, and no one is saying that McDavid wasn’t underwhelming. But as you can clearly see, Malkin had 6 goals and 14 points through those first 2 rounds....even Hossa in the later Rounds went on a spree....isn’t it safe to say that if they don’t produce the way he did, they don’t advance as well?

All I’m saying is you can’t hold it against McDavid for his team lack of playoff success, much like you can’t give Crosby all the credit for his. Sure, Crosby played great when it mattered, but that doesn’t change the fact that he too had players play better than him, and that’s what it takes a lot of the time.

Saying Crosby has the edge when it comes to playoff performance those first 3 seasons doesn't mean I'm saying Crosby didn't have a good supporting cast or that he carried the team all by himself. It simply means that Crosby, as an individual, performed better than McDavid, as an individual.

And before you keep going back to "but McDavid's supporting cast sucks!", Leon Draisaitl had 16 points in 13 games on that exact same team. He almost DOUBLED McDavid's production last year. Mark Letestu finished with more points than McDavid. Never in Crosby's career has he finished with half the points of his team's leading scoring, nor has he finished below the likes of Mark Letestu.

So again, no one is saying Crosby didn't have a stronger supporting cast. But that also doesn't mean you should then completely ignore that Crosby performed better than McDavid did. That's like saying you can't say Wayne Gretzky was a better playoff performer than Dale Hawerchuk because Gretzky played on a stacked team and Hawerchuk didn't.