Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

[TopShelfYzerman]

Lets show the whole story
Crosby 213 GP- 294 PTS = 1.38ppg average
Mc David 205 GP-251 PTS =1.22 ppg average.

Close but the edge goes to Crosby.

Except if we look at the more 'whole story' or time splits, we get these results:

Sidney Crosby first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3070 mins / 156 pts = 19.6 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 1196 mins/ 135 pts = 8.85 mins / point

McDavid first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3465 mins/ 186 pts = 18.62 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 612 mins / 59 = 10.37 mins / point

Looks like McDavid is the superior even strength player. Crosby had a better PP rate. Crosby likely benefited from a PP with a better supporting cast and having roughly twice the PP time as McDavid. Id argue McDavids numbers are more impressive especially taking into account McDavids weaker supporting cast illustrated by his teams standings.

 

[Habs10025]

Except if we look at the more 'whole story' or time splits, we get these results:

Sidney Crosby first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3070 mins / 156 pts = 19.6 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 1196 mins/ 135 pts = 8.85 mins / point
Crosby and since you like numbers don't forget to count the playoff stats for Crosby

McDavid first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3465 mins/ 186 pts = 18.62 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 612 mins / 59 = 10.37 mins / point

Looks like McDavid is the superior even strength player. Crosby had a better PP rate. Crosby likely benefited from a PP with a better supporting cast and having roughly twice the PP time as McDavid. Id argue McDavids numbers are more impressive especially taking into account supporting cast.

Reg season stats first 3 seasons Crosby 213 games - 99 goals - 195 assists = 294 points ( 1.38 ppg)
Playoff stats 25 games - 9 goals - 23 assists = 32 points ( 1.28 ppg)
2 Playoffs 1 Stanley Cup Final

Reg season stats first 3 seasons McDavid 205 games - 87 goals -164 assists = 251 points ( 1.22 ppg)
Playoff stats 13 games - 5 goals - 4 assists = 9 points ( 0.69 ppg)
1 Playoffs

Sidney Crosby had the more impressive first 3 seasons

 

[daver]

Except if we look at the more 'whole story' or time splits, we get these results:

Sidney Crosby first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3070 mins / 156 pts = 19.6 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 1196 mins/ 135 pts = 8.85 mins / point

McDavid first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3465 mins/ 186 pts = 18.62 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 612 mins / 59 = 10.37 mins / point

Looks like McDavid is the superior even strength player. Crosby had a better PP rate. Crosby likely benefited from a PP with a better supporting cast and having roughly twice the PP time as McDavid. Id argue McDavids numbers are more impressive especially taking into account McDavids weaker supporting cast illustrated by his teams standings.

Really? Having the 8th best point producer on your ES line > having the 18th best point producer on your PP unit

And the Oilers finished higher in the standings than the Pens in their first two seasons. Crosby's Hart season resulted in the Pens making the largest point jump in NHL history. Crosby's league leading playoff point total got the Pens within two wins of the Cup.

 

[OilCanada92]

There is nothing that works. This is all BS hypothetical speculation. If McDavid is as good as you make him out to be and that ES points are superior to PP points, that should play itself out in the next few seasons.

I haven't mentioned this yet in this thread but since you guys want to try to downplay Crosby's points due to them being on the PP, I would downplay McDavid's production this year after a certain time of the season as being meaningless since the Oilers were out of playoffs. I frankly am wondering why you guys aren't questioning where was this version of McDavid earlier in the season when it could have made a difference.

You mean earlier in the year when he was producing at a 95-100 point pace rather than the 2 points per game he's been at the last month? Yeah, he was really mailing it in back then. The fact that he isn't having a 160 point season really says something about his commitment to the game. He's clearly a player who only produces when the pressure is off.

 

[daver]

You mean earlier in the year when he was producing at a 95-100 point pace rather than the 2 points per game he's been at the last month? Yeah, he was really mailing it in back then. The fact that he isn't having a 160 point season really says something about his commitment to the game. He's clearly a player who only produces when the pressure is off.

I am happy to acknowledge he was a Top 5 scorer for most of the year. That's not quite as good as Crosby's pace in his 3rd year.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosbys first 4 seasons were pretty much story book.

05-06 worst team in the league. 18 year old Crosby scores 102 points.

06-07 pens go from 58 points to 105, one of the largest jumps in history. Crosby scores 120 points and wins art ross/hart. Youngest scoring champion in history at age 19. Pens lose in the first round.

07-08 pens win the division and end up losing to Detroit in the finals. Crosby leads the playoffs in scoring at age 20. Was leading the regular season until he got injured.

08-09 pens win the cup by avenging their loss to Detroit. At age 21 Crosby youngest captain in history to win a cup. Crosby scores 103 points in the reg season and 31 points in the playoffs. Only outdone by Ovechkin/Malkin in the reg season, and Malkin in the playoffs.

 

[OilCanada92]

I am happy to acknowledge he was a Top 5 scorer for most of the year. That's not quite as good as Crosby's pace in his 3rd year.

How big of you to acknowledge facts.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Crosbys first 4 seasons were pretty much story book.

05-06 worst team in the league. 18 year old Crosby scores 102 points.

06-07 pens go from 58 points to 105, one of the largest jumps in history. Crosby scores 120 points and wins art ross/hart. Youngest scoring champion in history at age 19. Pens lose in the first round.

07-08 pens win the division and end up losing to Detroit in the finals. Crosby leads the playoffs in scoring at age 20. Was leading the regular season until he got injured.

08-09 pens win the cup by avenging their loss to Detroit. At age 21 Crosby youngest captain in history to win a cup. Crosby scores 103 points in the reg season and 31 points in the playoffs. Only outdone by Ovechkin/Malkin in the reg season, and Malkin in the playoffs.

seriously why does anybody think mcdavid has topped this?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Mcdavid racking up points in garbage time is seriously not that impressive. Big whoop he has nothing else to play for.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

seriously why does anybody think mcdavid has topped this?

No denying Mcdavid has been super impressive, but there's no weight to what he's doing. Crosbys accomplishments that were just as if not more impressive from a pure numbers perspective, went hand in hand with meaningful milestones of a super young Pittsburgh team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Except if we look at the more 'whole story' or time splits, we get these results:

Sidney Crosby first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3070 mins / 156 pts = 19.6 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 1196 mins/ 135 pts = 8.85 mins / point

McDavid first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3465 mins/ 186 pts = 18.62 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 612 mins / 59 = 10.37 mins / point

Looks like McDavid is the superior even strength player. Crosby had a better PP rate. Crosby likely benefited from a PP with a better supporting cast and having roughly twice the PP time as McDavid. Id argue McDavids numbers are more impressive especially taking into account McDavids weaker supporting cast illustrated by his teams standings.

McDavid also has 9 3v3 OT points vs zero for Crosby, remove those and the numbers look pretty similar at ES.

And the bolded is a circular argument.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

McDavid also has 9 3v3 OT points vs zero for Crosby, remove those and the numbers look pretty similar at ES.

And the bolded is a circular argument.

About as dumb as an argument of "he's just scoring all these points in meaningless games"

 

[GodEmperor]

Crosbys first 4 seasons were pretty much story book.

05-06 worst team in the league. 18 year old Crosby scores 102 points.

06-07 pens go from 58 points to 105, one of the largest jumps in history. Crosby scores 120 points and wins art ross/hart. Youngest scoring champion in history at age 19. Pens lose in the first round.

07-08 pens win the division and end up losing to Detroit in the finals. Crosby leads the playoffs in scoring at age 20. Was leading the regular season until he got injured.

08-09 pens win the cup by avenging their loss to Detroit. At age 21 Crosby youngest captain in history to win a cup. Crosby scores 103 points in the reg season and 31 points in the playoffs. Only outdone by Ovechkin/Malkin in the reg season, and Malkin in the playoffs.

I don't have a dog in this fight and think they're honestly neck and neck, but I don't like this argument.

McDavid helped improve his team 35+ points on his own from his rookie year to his 2nd year meanwhile the Pens had TWO generational players AND Recchi, Gonchar, Whitney and Staal. McDavid's helpers don't come even close to that.

To me Crosby is already easily top 5, but not because of his team accolades, but due to his own play. He has Geno and Letang with him, who does McDavid have of compatible weight? Malkin>>>easily over Drai and Letang even early in his career is probably better than anything Edmonton have on D right now, never mind Gonchar or Whitney who were amazing during that time period in their own rights.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

McDavid also has 9 3v3 OT points vs zero for Crosby, remove those and the numbers look pretty similar at ES.

And the bolded is a circular argument.

So Crosby fans try to use the argument that McDavid gets his points in garbage time etc. Yet last season he had his most productive period during the most important games: the Oilers' playoff push, and now you guys want to remove points that are literally game winning? For the record Crosby had a bunch of 4v4 OT points too. Should we remove those too?

 

[GreatGonzo]

You can’t compare Crosby and McDavid when it comes to the playoffs...

Crosby’s playoff push in 2008, he had Malkin, Fluery, Staal, Gonchar, with seasoned players in Sykora and Hossa. That alone is already twice as great as the supporting cast McDavid ever had. The following year, he had Malkin go beast mode to a Conn Smythe.

 

[daver]

I don't have a dog in this fight and think they're honestly neck and neck, but I don't like this argument.

McDavid helped improve his team 35+ points on his own from his rookie year to his 2nd year meanwhile the Pens had TWO generational players AND Recchi, Gonchar, Whitney and Staal. McDavid's helpers don't come even close to that.

To me Crosby is already easily top 5, but not because of his team accolades, but due to his own play. He has Geno and Letang with him, who does McDavid have of compatible weight? Malkin>>>easily over Drai and Letang even early in his career is probably better than anything Edmonton have on D right now, never mind Gonchar or Whitney who were amazing during that time period in their own rights.

Based on what? Drai finished 8th in scoring last year, Malkin was 18th in his rookie year.

The Oilers in McDavid's rookie year > Pens in 05/06

The Oilers last year > Pens in 06/07

 

[GodEmperor]

Based on what? Drai finished 8th in scoring last year, Malkin was 18th in his rookie year.

The Oilers in McDavid's rookie year > Pens in 05/06

The Oilers last year > Pens in 06/07

Malkin had more points in his rookie year than Drai has ever had....it's not even a contest which addition is bigger.

Hardly, there isn't much difference between 70 and 58 points, especially when you factor in OT and shootouts are really crapshoots. The Oilers cap if they magically won 100% of those games was 78 points, the Pens lost 14 games in OT/shootout meaning that their cap was 72 points and honestly they could've easily ended up in the mid 60s with slightly better luck. Even at the highest level 12 points isn't much as we've seen what "12 extra points" translates to with the Cap season dominance over the past decade.

That's debatable, especially in hindsight knowing how difficult it was for Talbot to sustain his play, it's really not debatable that Malkin and Crosby aka the two generational guys can sustain high level play every year.

 

[ole ole]

Except if we look at the more 'whole story' or time splits, we get these results:

Sidney Crosby first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3070 mins / 156 pts = 19.6 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 1196 mins/ 135 pts = 8.85 mins / point

McDavid first 3 seasons
Even Strength Time on Ice/ Pts : 3465 mins/ 186 pts = 18.62 mins / pt
PP Time on Ice / Pts : 612 mins / 59 = 10.37 mins / point

Looks like McDavid is the superior even strength player. Crosby had a better PP rate. Crosby likely benefited from a PP with a better supporting cast and having roughly twice the PP time as McDavid. Id argue McDavids numbers are more impressive especially taking into account McDavids weaker supporting cast illustrated by his teams standings.

No matter how you try to break it down to favor a certain player the final results for those 3 season stand as,
Crosby 213 GP- 294 PTS = 1.38ppg average
Mc David 205 GP-251 PTS =1.22 ppg average.
The final stats put Crosby slightly ahead.

 

[bathdog]

McDavid also has 9 3v3 OT points vs zero for Crosby, remove those and the numbers look pretty similar at ES.

And the bolded is a circular argument.

Before we dig deeper, it would be reasonable to apply a similar filter when comparing Crosby/McDavid for the time their careers have overlapped, right?

Since we already covered EN points to some degree, I'm sure you realize that over the past 3 years...

Crosby has 5th most EN goals.
McDavid has tied for 33th most EN goals.

Crosby has tied for 6th most 3v3 goals.
McDavid has tied for 16th most 3v3 goals.

Crosby has 2nd most EN + 3v3 goals.
McDavid has tied for 18th most for EN + 3v3 goals combined.

Surely, it doesn't appear at first glance, that this is going to be pretty after our obligatory deductions of points, assuming Crosby doesn't get preferential treatment?

So Crosby fans try to use the argument that McDavid gets his points in garbage time etc. Yet last season he had his most productive period during the most important games: the Oilers' playoff push, and now you guys want to remove points that are literally game winning? For the record Crosby had a bunch of 4v4 OT points too. Should we remove those too?

Wouldn't be the first time.

You can’t compare Crosby and McDavid when it comes to the playoffs...

Crosby’s playoff push in 2008, he had Malkin, Fluery, Staal, Gonchar, with seasoned players in Sykora and Hossa. That alone is already twice as great as the supporting cast McDavid ever had. The following year, he had Malkin go beast mode to a Conn Smythe.

Agree that it's somewhat hard, but it really has to count for something for Crosby.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Malkin had more points in his rookie year than Drai has ever had....it's not even a contest which addition is bigger.

Oh dear Lord. This entire thread has been spent talking about how you can't directly compare Crosby's 120 points and 102 points to McDavid's point totals in his first two years because of the higher scoring those years, yet now someone's talking about how Malkin scored more points back then than Draisaitl scored last year?

HF, can we please stick to one standard? If Crosby's RAW totals being superior to McDavid's raw totals can't be used without factoring in league wide scoring levels and "relative to peer", then can we at least apply the same to the other players around them?

 

[GodEmperor]

Oh dear Lord. This entire thread has been spent talking about how you can't directly compare Crosby's 120 points and 102 points to McDavid's point totals in his first two years because of the higher scoring those years, yet now someone's talking about how Malkin scored more points back then than Draisaitl scored last year?

HF, can we please stick to one standard? If Crosby's RAW totals being superior to McDavid's raw totals can't be used without factoring in league wide scoring levels and "relative to peer", then can we at least apply the same to the other players around them?

Oh sorry, I didn't realize that I spoke for ALL Oilers fans and ALL of HF, I will consult them to formulate my opinion.

The fact that you cherry pick this shows you don't want to deal with the real brunt of the argument which was:

1.The assertion of the Penguins amazing season to season transformation from 05-06

2.The explanation of why it happened and how the two first years of McD and Sid are not that much different at least team wise

Basically your point is that Malkin's first year=Drai's 3rd year and I would say this is nonsense, Malkin was a better player at EVERY step of the way hence Crosby shouldn't get complete credit for the turnout nor is the turnout as drastic as it seems when you factor in that they lost 14 games in OT the previous year or when you compare it to the 35 point Oiler turnaround.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize that I spoke for ALL Oilers fans and ALL of HF, I will consult them to formulate my opinion.

The fact that you cherry pick this shows you don't want to deal with the real brunt of the argument which was:

1.The assertion of the Penguins amazing season to season transformation from 05-06

2.The explanation of why it happened and how the two first years of McD and Sid are not that much different at least team wise

Basically your point is that Malkin's first year=Drai's 3rd year and I would say this is nonsense, Malkin was a better player at EVERY step of the way hence Crosby shouldn't get complete credit for the turnout nor is the turnout as drastic as it seems when you factor in that they lost 14 games in OT the previous year or when you compare it to the 35 point Oiler turnaround.

I don't remember making any mention of Malkin, Draisaitl, or who is responsible for what team's turnarounds anywhere other than to comment on how raw production seems to be ignored when it favors Crosby, but then brought up when it favors McDavid.

I just thought it was funny that this thread, and pretty much EVERY McDavid/Crosby thread, people against Crosby keep dismissing raw totals as being a good way to compare them. So when you come in and talk about how Malkin scored more points in his rookie year than Draisaitl has ever scored, it made me chuckle how suddenly raw points is the be-all in determining how good a season a player had.

I'd just like to know once and for all whether we're going by a player's raw production or not since it seems like people flip flop depending on whether it suits their player.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Based on what? Drai finished 8th in scoring last year, Malkin was 18th in his rookie year.

The Oilers in McDavid's rookie year > Pens in 05/06

The Oilers last year > Pens in 06/07

No, if its a Mcdavid thread..."Drai sucks.RNH sucks..etc...Mcdavid has nobody". If you bring up any of those players in another thread , saying Drai is overpaid.. people are crazy for thinking that. "Hes a great player".

 

[Turin]

I don't remember making any mention of Malkin, Draisaitl, or who is responsible for what team's turnarounds anywhere other than to comment on how raw production seems to be ignored when it favors Crosby, but then brought up when it favors McDavid.

I just thought it was funny that this thread, and pretty much EVERY McDavid/Crosby thread, people against Crosby keep dismissing raw totals as being a good way to compare them. So when you come in and talk about how Malkin scored more points in his rookie year than Draisaitl has ever scored, it made me chuckle how suddenly raw points is the be-all in determining how good a season a player had.

I'd just like to know once and for all whether we're going by a player's raw production or not since it seems like people flip flop depending on whether it suits their player.

The hierarchy of HF merit is:

1. Raw ES Points unless it’s about Crosby
2. Success Relative to Peers Ignoring Compitition
3. PPG average unless it’s Crosby
4. Raw Total Points
5. Age unless it’s Crosby
6. Playoff Success unless it’s Crosby

 

[Laineux]

[mod]

I suspect exactly that if McDavid ends up dominating the league way more than Crosby his competition will start being downplayed. Not like it's a new thing as Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin have all been downplayed due to supposedly having much easier competition than in the 90s. It will happen when the next great player enters the league as well because humans just enjoy nostalgizing the past.