Matthew Tkachuk or Mitchell Marner?

[The List Of Jericho]

Actually, if you listen to as much Flames radio as I'm almost ashamed to admit I do (clearly you don't). ..This kid's a complete throwback to being 'the kid' on a team; here's a quote from an interview he did with CBC:

And he credits his dad, former NHL star Keith Tkachuk, for instilling in him the importance of acting with class off the ice.

“I’m an 18-year-old kid playing with guys like Mark Giordano, Matt Stajan, Troy Brouwer guys that are almost 15 years older. The thing I was worried about coming in is ‘How am I going to fit in with the team?'” Tkachuk said. “I was pretty comfortable coming into a new locker room just from what I saw at a young age. I saw the way my dad treated people—the trainers, his teammates when he played. Talking with him a lot, he really stressed that to me.

“When I talk to him it’s the two things he always brings up: compete and be a good teammate. Treat everybody equal, whether it’s trainers, coaches, players, and that was one thing I really tried to emphasize when I came in last year.”

Every report is him being a good dude, and being a team-first dude. Even earlier in the season when Bieksa or Doughty lambaste him in the media, the guy doesn't say anything horrendous back. The guy respects the game and the respects the team pecking order.

His coach has called him out for crossing lines multiple times this season, there is a reason he gets lambasted by other players in the league. I've seen him slew foot guys quite a bit, don't make him sound like an angel.

 

[Tkachuky]

His coach has called him out for crossing lines multiple times this season, there is a reason he gets lambasted by other players in the league. I've seen him slew foot guys quite a bit, don't make him sound like an angel.

Pretty sure he hasn't done anything stupid in the past 30 games or so. I think he has learned his lesson.

 

[barrsdow]

Really? Wayne Simmonds is a very good power forward, a consistent 30 goal threat.

Yeah I dont think it would be close because this board has ridiculous recency bias.

 

[FerklundCGY]

I wouldn't have any problem with people saying Tkachuk is the most valuable player on the Flames over Gaudreau and Marner isn't even close to Gaudreau's level so I'll go with Chucky.

There's absolutely nothing he doesn't do. Draws way more penalties than any player in the NHL which is critical to success (even though the Flames PP sucks), gets buried defensively against opposing teams' top lines and absolutely obliterates who he's matched up against night in and night out, is an absolute possession MONSTER, is absolutely impossible to knock off the puck down low, is still incredibly effective even when he's not producing (although that's rarely the case), and is just as good a 5v5 producer as Marner, if not better.

Marner might end up the better point producer down the road but he's only got 3 more points in 3 more games than Tkachuk this season. Aside from skating, Tkachuk is much better than him in every other category.

 

[Lemontree]

I wouldn't have any problem with people saying Tkachuk is the most valuable player on the Flames over Gaudreau and Marner isn't even close to Gaudreau's level so I'll go with Chucky.

There's absolutely nothing he doesn't do. Draws way more penalties than any player in the NHL which is critical to success (even though the Flames PP sucks), gets buried defensively against opposing teams' top lines and absolutely obliterates who he's matched up against night in and night out, is an absolute possession MONSTER, is absolutely impossible to knock off the puck down low, is still incredibly effective even when he's not producing (although that's rarely the case), and is just as good a 5v5 producer as Marner, if not better.

Marner might end up the better point producer down the road but he's only got 3 more points in 3 more games than Tkachuk this season. Aside from skating, Tkachuk is much better than him in every other category.

You believe he is a better passer/vision than Marner?

 

[FerklundCGY]

You believe he is a better passer/vision than Marner?

Vision? Absolutely. Tkachuk far and away has the best vision on the Flames. They're even at worst.

Passing? Debatable but I don't mind giving Marner the edge. Tkachuk has just 1 less primary assist than Marner 5v5 since they entered the league and only 6 less assists total 5v5.

 

[Yamazaki]

I wouldn't have any problem with people saying Tkachuk is the most valuable player on the Flames over Gaudreau and Marner isn't even close to Gaudreau's level so I'll go with Chucky.

There's absolutely nothing he doesn't do. Draws way more penalties than any player in the NHL which is critical to success (even though the Flames PP sucks), gets buried defensively against opposing teams' top lines and absolutely obliterates who he's matched up against night in and night out, is an absolute possession MONSTER, is absolutely impossible to knock off the puck down low, is still incredibly effective even when he's not producing (although that's rarely the case), and is just as good a 5v5 producer as Marner, if not better.

Marner might end up the better point producer down the road but he's only got 3 more points in 3 more games than Tkachuk this season. Aside from skating, Tkachuk is much better than him in every other category.

Judging by you username I don’t think you watch Marner play at all and for the record Marner is a better point producer throughout their careers.

Lol @ Tkachuk having better vision.

 

[jetsforever]

I'd pretty easily take Marner now
Might reconsider if Marner doesn't pick it up though

 

[glucker]

I remember when Marner was better than Gaudreau. Gaudreau could miss the rest of the season and still outscore Marner by 5-10 points.

Coin toss at this point, but I'll take Tkachuk based on how he's progressed this year.

I remember it like it’s still true.

ITT: a bunch of Flames fans snarkily talking about how Leafs fans don’t watch the Flames, while they clearly haven’t been watching the Leafs.

 

[FerklundCGY]

Judging by you username I don’t think you watch Marner play at all and for the record Marner is a better point producer throughout their careers.

Lol @ Tkachuk having better vision.

Tkachuk had 16 primary assists vs Marner's 13 primary assists in their rookie seasons despite being a year younger. He also produced the same amount of primary points per 60 minutes (Marner had 6 more goals) despite facing amongst the toughest competition in the league and being buried in defensive zone starts.

This season, Tkachuk has 5 primary assists vs Marner's 9 but has 5 more goals and produces more primary points per 60 minutes than Marner despite, once again, facing amongst the toughest competition in the league and being buried in defensive zone starts.

Not only is Tkachuk just as good an offensive producer as Marner 5v5, if not better, he's also better than Marner defensively (no contest), better at drawing penalties (no contest), has better advanced stats (no contest), a better overall game score (no contest), better at protecting the puck (no contest), better on board battles (no contest), etc..

Marner is a much, much better skater and arguably a better passer but there's absolutely no statistical evidence to suggest he's the better player

 

[93LEAFS]

Tkachuk had 16 primary assists vs Marner's 13 primary assists in their rookie seasons despite being a year younger. He also produced the same amount of primary points per 60 minutes (Marner had 6 more goals) despite facing amongst the toughest competition in the league and being buried in defensive zone starts.

This season, Tkachuk has 5 primary assists vs Marner's 9 but has 5 more goals and produces more primary points per 60 minutes than Marner despite, once again, facing amongst the toughest competition in the league and being buried in defensive zone starts.

Not only is Tkachuk just as good an offensive producer as Marner 5v5, if not better, he's also better than Marner defensively (no contest), better at drawing penalties (no contest), has better advanced stats (no contest), a better overall game score (no contest), better at protecting the puck (no contest), better on board battles (no contest), etc..

Marner is a much, much better skater and arguably a better passer but there's absolutely no statistical evidence to suggest he's the better player

It isn't a year, its 7 months. They are both 1997 birth years.

Marner is killing Tkachuk by xGF% and xGF rel. So, there are advanced stats to point to where Marner is superior. Until recently, Marner never played with strong possession or defensive players, whereas Tkachuk has mostly played with Backlund and Frolik who have always been strong possession players.

 

[FerklundCGY]

It isn't a year, its 7 months. They are both 1997 birth years.

Marner is killing Tkachuk by xGF% and xGF rel. So, there are advanced stats to point to where Marner is superior. Until recently, Marner never played with strong possession or defensive players, whereas Tkachuk has mostly played with Backlund and Frolik who have always been strong possession players.

xGF rel, yes, but I wouldn't consider a 2% difference in xGF% "killing" him.

However, his xGA is higher than Tkachuk's which points to him having a worse defensive year despite not facing nearly as difficult matchups as Tkachuk.

Overall, Tkachuk has a better xGF% and much better xGF rel throughout their respective careers.

While Marner's xGF is quite a bit higher than Tkachuk's, his xGA is much, much worse despite Tkachuk facing much tougher competition. Not to mention Tkachuk has easily kept pace with Marner 5v5 so far

 

[93LEAFS]

xGF rel, yes, but I wouldn't consider a 2% difference in xGF% "killing" him.

However, his xGA is higher than Tkachuk's which points to him having a worse defensive year despite not facing nearly as difficult matchups as Tkachuk.

Overall, Tkachuk has a better xGF% and much better xGF rel throughout their respective careers.

While Marner's xGF is quite a bit higher than Tkachuk's, his xGA is much, much worse despite Tkachuk facing much tougher competition. Not to mention Tkachuk has easily kept pace with Marner 5v5 so far

The issue with pointing too heavily to Tkachuk's advanced stats, is that we have such a limited sample size of him away from Backlund and Frolik, who are both very strong possession players and have been for the past 5 years (removed from each other and Tkachuk). He's only played 200 minutes without Backlund at 5v5 over 2 seasons. A bunch of which would be situations where you are trapped in your zone on a line change (skewing the numbers).

Do you think Tkachuk is the primary reason his line is a strong possession line? Because most of the supporting evidence would point to it being driven by Backlund. The guy has multiple seasons above 5 corsi rel prior to Tkachuk even arriving. Now, I think Tkachuk contributes to making it a strong line similar to how Bergeron's wingers help him, but aren't the primary reason for the elite possession numbers.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Calgary would trade Tkachuck for Marner in a heartbeat, if they could.

But they can't. So forget it, Calgary!!

 

[FlamerForLife]

Calgary would trade Tkachuck for Marner in a heartbeat, if they could.

But they can't. So forget it, Calgary!!

No Calgary wouldn't. Tkachuk is one of the only untouchables on the team.

 

[Tkachuky]

N

Calgary would trade Tkachuck for Marner in a heartbeat, if they could.

But they can't. So forget it, Calgary!!

No way we would. Think about it.... We have Gaudreau.... Who FYI, despite Leaf fan belief, is better than Marner.

Chucky is a key part of the Flames and will be for many years.

 

[bionic]

Vision? Absolutely. Tkachuk far and away has the best vision on the Flames. They're even at worst.

Passing? Debatable but I don't mind giving Marner the edge. Tkachuk has just 1 less primary assist than Marner 5v5 since they entered the league and only 6 less assists total 5v5.

No. Marners vision is better. The ability this kid has to know where his teammates are at all times is uncanny.
I love Tkachuck, the kid is an absolute stud and going to be a star if he's not already but I go with Marner and his ability to control a game and drive his line. He's a leader when he's out on the ice.

 

[Volica]

The issue with pointing too heavily to Tkachuk's advanced stats, is that we have such a limited sample size of him away from Backlund and Frolik, who are both very strong possession players and have been for the past 5 years (removed from each other and Tkachuk). He's only played 200 minutes without Backlund at 5v5 over 2 seasons. A bunch of which would be situations where you are trapped in your zone on a line change (skewing the numbers).

Do you think Tkachuk is the primary reason his line is a strong possession line? Because most of the supporting evidence would point to it being driven by Backlund. The guy has multiple seasons above 5 corsi rel prior to Tkachuk even arriving. Now, I think Tkachuk contributes to making it a strong line similar to how Bergeron's wingers help him, but aren't the primary reason for the elite possession numbers.

Backlund is an elite possession player; but as you mention, Tkachuk isn't some scrub that's simply riding Backlund's coat tails. There's a reason Backlund had a career season playing alongside Matthew (in his rookie year). Matt Tkachuk himself is an excellent defensive player and possession beast (independent of how he plays with the other two, he's consistently the best of the three possession wise). You also have to factor in that he made Brouwer look like an actual top 9 NHL'er when he was played with them. Most of Brouwer's points actually came directly from Matt Tkachuk in which Backlund wasn't involved with the play.

I would say they compliment each other tremendously. Matt Tkachuk makes everyone around him better; the fact the powerplay has gone from dumpster fire to simply a garbage fire was him moving onto the top unit recently. My issue is if we simply disregard advanced stats, then we simply look at scoring numbers in which one is averaging 0.74 PPG and the other 0.722; those are negligible numbers in all reality.

More or less what Calgary Flames fans are being told in this thread:

• Mitch Marner is better, because his ceiling is significantly higher (intangible, there's no way of noting this, and there's no proof).
• Mitch Marner is a better offensive player (yet their point totals this year are equivalent, while Marner's in D+3 vs Matt's D+2)
• Mitch Marner's vision and passing are on a completely different level than Matt's (even though Primary assists are almost equivalent in their two seasons, 5v5).
• Drawing penalties, being a physical beast, board play, body positioning, defensive prowess and grit mean nothing.
• Possession numbers are ignorable because he plays with Backlund, except xGF/xGF.rel, because those stats aren't team related either.
• Matt Tkachuk is a dumb player, even though he's drawn more penalties than he's taken, by a significant amount.
• D+2 vs D+3 means nothing because it's only 7 months. It's not like having an NHL camp, expectations and guidance has ever helped anyone in this league. It's not like dealing with NHL level coaching staffs and trainers has ever benefitted a single player.

A lot of this thread is simply coming from people who haven't watched both players enough to make an assessment. I mean, I know the person I'm quoting specifically still uses London Knights arguments pro Marner. At this point of time, that shit is irrelevant.

 

[93LEAFS]

Backlund is an elite possession player; but as you mention, Tkachuk isn't some scrub that's simply riding Backlund's coat tails. There's a reason Backlund had a career season playing alongside Matthew (in his rookie year). Matt Tkachuk himself is an excellent defensive player and possession beast (independent of how he plays with the other two, he's consistently the best of the three possession wise). You also have to factor in that he made Brouwer look like an actual top 9 NHL'er when he was played with them. Most of Brouwer's points actually came directly from Matt Tkachuk in which Backlund wasn't involved with the play.

I would say they compliment each other tremendously. Matt Tkachuk makes everyone around him better; the fact the powerplay has gone from dumpster fire to simply a garbage fire was him moving onto the top unit recently. My issue is if we simply disregard advanced stats, then we simply look at scoring numbers in which one is averaging 0.74 PPG and the other 0.722; those are negligible numbers in all reality.

More or less what Calgary Flames fans are being told in this thread:

• Mitch Marner is better, because his ceiling is significantly higher (intangible, there's no way of noting this, and there's no proof).
• Mitch Marner is a better offensive player (yet their point totals this year are equivalent, while Marner's in D+3 vs Matt's D+2)
• Mitch Marner's vision and passing are on a completely different level than Matt's (even though Primary assists are almost equivalent in their two seasons, 5v5).
• Drawing penalties, being a physical beast, board play, body positioning, defensive prowess and grit mean nothing.
• Possession numbers are ignorable because he plays with Backlund, except xGF/xGF.rel, because those stats aren't team related either.
• Matt Tkachuk is a dumb player, even though he's drawn more penalties than he's taken, by a significant amount.
• D+2 vs D+3 means nothing because it's only 7 months. It's not like having an NHL camp, expectations and guidance has ever helped anyone in this league. It's not like dealing with NHL level coaching staffs and trainers has ever benefitted a single player.

A lot of this thread is simply coming from people who haven't watched both players enough to make an assessment. I mean, I know the person I'm quoting specifically still uses London Knights arguments pro Marner. At this point of time, that **** is irrelevant.

I haven't said anything about the Knights in ages.

I also never said that advanced stats should be ignored, but Tkachuk is attached to Backlund which makes it hard to tell how much he is really driving possession. Without Backlund he's a sub-50% possession player. Now, I know that is primarily caused by factors that are unfair with a bunch being due to disjointed changes. But, while he currently has the best relative numbers, Frolik and Backlund have a much stronger supporting history of success away from Tkachuk.

xGF and xGF rel are absolutely team related and who you spend time on the ice with.

I think you are overstating the extra season. D+1 and birth year has a lot of grey area between the two on which is more important. I mean, you are talking about a son of an NHLer, with multiple cousins in the league. Tkachuk has always had access to high-level personal trainers and such.

 

[AvroArrow]

Tkachuk is a dirty POS, talented player but such a scumbag. I go with Marner

 

[Marner]

I'd pretty easily take Marner now
Might reconsider if Marner doesn't pick it up though

He already has
7g 5a last 11gp

 

[eviohh26]

I'd take Tkachuk. He is the kind of player you want in the playoffs.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

Not sure if it has been brought up yet but if we are discussing production i think its worth noting that Tkachuk plays over a minute more per game than Marner (neither player sees the ice during the PK) and Tkachuk is shooting at 14% right now (not sure if that is sustainable for him?) Compared to Marner who is only at 9%.
Not sure what both players overall on ice shooting % is though?

 

[leafsfuture]

Leafs fan here.

The thing with Marner that makes him special is that most of us believe he is underachieving with his point totals both this year and last year.
Last year he was on pace to match Matthews scoring, then got hurt and when he came back was not the same. This year his start was brutal.

But his ability to affect a game like the last couple is amazing. His competitiveness combined with his skating and hockey IQ make him special. If he improves his finishing ability and gets more comfortable being shoot first (aka more like Nylander in that regard) he could win a scoring title.... like thats not out of the realm of possibility. Im not sure you can say the same for Tkachuk,

 

[barrsdow]

Leafs fan here.

The thing with Marner that makes him special is that most of us believe he is underachieving with his point totals both this year and last year.
Last year he was on pace to match Matthews scoring, then got hurt and when he came back was not the same. This year his start was brutal.

But his ability to affect a game like the last couple is amazing. His competitiveness combined with his skating and hockey IQ make him special. If he improves his finishing ability and gets more comfortable being shoot first (aka more like Nylander in that regard) he could win a scoring title.... like thats not out of the realm of possibility. Im not sure you can say the same for Tkachuk,

Wait @leafsfuture you're a leafs fan?