Speculation: Marner or Nylander?

[therealkoho]

Exactly, Matthews team was “where do I sign?”.

yeah for sure they were, it reminds me of when the Sexton and Leeder offered Daigle that idiotic deal before the agent even opened his mouth

 

[therealkoho]

This part is hilarious.

These posters think Dubas is the greatest gm but at the same time hate the marner deal.

Their favorite gm then goes on to call marner doubters "idiotic".

Its honestly priceless.

don't worry about it, it's just LeaFland

 

[Gallagbi]

This part is hilarious.

These posters think Dubas is the greatest gm but at the same time hate the marner deal.

Their favorite gm then goes on to call marner doubters "idiotic".

Its honestly priceless.

Imagine being able to judge the moves themselves instead of having to be "all-in" or "all-out" on every decision based on the person who made it.

Come over to the dark side, it's awesome, you get to use your brain and discuss what's happening going forward instead of having to back an agenda.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Imagine being able to judge the moves themselves instead of having to be "all-in" or "all-out" on every decision based on the person who made it.

Come over to the dark side, it's awesome, you get to use your brain and discuss what's happening going forward instead of having to back an agenda.

I honestly have no clue what your point is with this post.

 

[Calper]

There is a large disparity between Matthews and McDavid, and Matthews got a better deal than him. His real comparable was Eichel. Look, we won’t regret the Matthews deal unless he leaves, but Dubas butchered that one too. Got way too little term, gave him the best deal in the NHL, and didn’t use any of the leverage we had. Plus for some reason decided to wait until we had Willy done.

This is so wrong its not about comparable. The issue is the Leafs signed JT. This was a bad signing then and will be an even worse signing in the future. The JT signing threw the Leafs salary structure out of whack! Prior to JT they had Kadri at 5m, could have easily signed Nylander for 6, Marner for 8 and Austin for 10. Once they signed JT both Mitch and Austin knew they were in for huge raises. You can't pay JT 11 when you have 2 players better than him and they are expected to sign for less?? not happening, plus they didn't need JT at the time, they had the offence they needed defence then and now...... everyone is missing the real issue here, its not what Mitch and Austin got its how and why they got it. Plus in 3 years Kadri will be a way better second line centre than JT. He is the Av's best performer so far in round 1.

 

[stopclickbait]

I honestly have no clue what your point is with this post.

I don't know how young you are but its pretty simple.

You can hate a GM/Player/Coach and still praise them for their good moves.

Vice Versa

You can like a GM/Player/Coach and still call them out for their bad moves.

Its not that complicated.

Anyways hopefully Marners grows a back bone and isn't afraid of players like Wennberg and starts playing for the Crest on the jersey instead of the name on his back. Maybe he will find out what a corner is and how to take a NHL calibre shot in the offseason.

I wonder how long until he is taking pity donations from fans on Twitch.

 

[Gabriel426]

Even if Marner get 110pts, Willie Get 40goals and 80pts, or AM scoring 50goals and 50assists or JT with 45goals and 45 assists if the Leafs can’t win a round or two in the playoffs, none of them earn their contracts.
They are being paid to help Leafs win in the playoffs and not pad their own stats.
I could careless if they all have no more than 70pts in the regular season as long as they win in the playoffs.

On one hand , most of you are saying these guys need to play for the logo instead of their names and on the other, you guys are using their personal stats to justify they did their part and should not be blame....
It is not about finding a scapegoat, the whole team failed. They all needed to take note that they failed despite having great/good personal stats. Stop using the other goalie played great or the other team is better or the refs are not making calls.....as an excuse. This is a get it done league and not nice try League.
They didn’t even make it into the playoffs this year and it is a massive failure.
If the Leafs ever want to win the Cup, they are destined to run into teams with great defence or out of this World Goaltending or teams with better offensive weapons than them....The run to the Cup won’t be (using this season as a ref) Wings, Sens, Sabres and Ducks. It will be always be teams like Bruins, TB, Caps, Flyers, BJs, Canes....

 

[Stamkos4life]

I don't know how young you are but its pretty simple.

You can hate a GM/Player/Coach and still praise them for their good moves.

Vice Versa

You can like a GM/Player/Coach and still call them out for their bad moves.

Its not that complicated.

Anyways hopefully Marners grows a back bone and isn't afraid of players like Wennberg and starts playing for the Crest on the jersey instead of the name on his back. Maybe he will find out what a corner is and how to take a NHL calibre shot in the offseason.

I wonder how long until he is taking pity donations from fans on Twitch.

Where did I say you can't hate a player/gm/coach but still praise them for their good moves or vice versa?

How does age come into this? Seriously?

Dubas is calling the fans who doubt marner "idiotic".

Many of these same fans think dubas is the greatest gm around.

I find it genuinely hilarious.

Like you said, its not complicated.

Also, the rest of your post shows you are just a troll. Get back under your bridge.

 

[Gallagbi]

I honestly have no clue what your point is with this post.

You're associating one move a GM made with how they have to be perceived overall.

I can hate a GM and say they made a good move or two. I can also do the opposite.

Your posts suggests you have to love all the moves if you're a fan of a GM, which is idiotic

 

[Stamkos4life]

You're associating one move a GM made with how they have to be perceived overall.

I can hate a GM and say they made a good move or two. I can also do the opposite.

Your posts suggests you have to love all the moves if you're a fan of a GM, which is idiotic

No where did I say any of this.

I'm simply pointing out that many of the marner detractors are also big Dubas fans.

Well dubas calls marner detractors "idiotic".

The last part is what I find hilarious.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Why is McDavid constantly ignored here? Matthews got a better contract than McDavid, and McDavid dramatically outplayed him on the ELC.

Matthews deal blows Eichel out of the water on every level. Only 1 UFA year to 4, cash is frontloaded, maximum lockout protection, higher cap-hit. You can argue Matthews is the better player, but not to that much of a difference in compensation. If two of the worst franchises can lock up there guys for 8, how the hell couldn't Dubas do it here, and if we were going to give them less than 8, why did he give them every concession? I fail to see one point of concession except maybe a UFA year Dubas got out of Matthews.

McDavid took a team friendly deal because he wanted to win. The guy is worth atleast 14M but took 12.5 for 8 (which would have looked real good in 4-5 years if Covid didn't happen). Matthews did not and wanted as much $$$ as he could get. I won't say he's wrong for doing that. Look at McDavid. Locked up in Edmonton doing as much as he can as a generational talent but Edmonton is a tire fire. The Leafs have been an abysmal franchise for the past 15 years. If you're going to be playing for a team like the Leafs I can understand wanting every penny you can get. The catch 22 is now it's harder to build a team around you. Especially when playmakers like Mitch are getting paid top dollars and you sign another UFA for the same amount. 30+M for 3 forwards is alot. Add in the next highest paid player is another forward in Nylander and you see where some of the troubles might lie.

You're absolutely right though. When I saw Matthews was only signed for 5 years I was disappointed.

 

[93LEAFS]

McDavid took a team friendly deal because he wanted to win. The guy is worth atleast 14M but took 12.5 for 8 (which would have looked real good in 4-5 years if Covid didn't happen). Matthews did not and wanted as much $$$ as he could get. I won't say he's wrong for doing that. Look at McDavid. Locked up in Edmonton doing as much as he can as a generational talent but Edmonton is a tire fire. The Leafs have been an abysmal franchise for the past 15 years. If you're going to be playing for a team like the Leafs I can understand wanting every penny you can get. The catch 22 is now it's harder to build a team around you. Especially when playmakers like Mitch are getting paid top dollars and you sign another UFA for the same amount. 30+M for 3 forwards is alot. Add in the next highest paid player is another forward in Nylander and you see where some of the troubles might lie.

You're absolutely right though. When I saw Matthews was only signed for 5 years I was disappointed.

McDavid set the upper benchmark. At max, Matthews should have been 8x12.5. Realistically closer to 11.5x8. His deal was completely out of proportion given the recent deals signed by young stars.

I'm not saying Matthews is wrong for it, what I am saying is the person who agreed to it on the teams side didn't use any of the leverage we had. He folded on everything. Term, frontloading the deal, full NMC, etc.

 

[Notsince67]

Imagine being able to judge the moves themselves instead of having to be "all-in" or "all-out" on every decision based on the person who made it.

Come over to the dark side, it's awesome, you get to use your brain and discuss what's happening going forward instead of having to back an agenda.

In your need to seem conciliatory, do you think your judgement of Marner has been clinical or has it been tainted. Either Marner was great, good or poor. You seem to be pushing a bit of a narrative of an unrealistic weighting of Marners culpability in the loss.
There might be agendas but truth shouldn't be sacrificed on the alter of diplomacy.

 

[Notsince67]

Even if Marner get 110pts, Willie Get 40goals and 80pts, or AM scoring 50goals and 50assists or JT with 45goals and 45 assists if the Leafs can’t win a round or two in the playoffs, none of them earn their contracts.
They are being paid to help Leafs win in the playoffs and not pad their own stats.
I could careless if they all have no more than 70pts in the regular season as long as they win in the playoffs.

On one hand , most of you are saying these guys need to play for the logo instead of their names and on the other, you guys are using their personal stats to justify they did their part and should not be blame....
It is not about finding a scapegoat, the whole team failed. They all needed to take note that they failed despite having great/good personal stats. Stop using the other goalie played great or the other team is better or the refs are not making calls.....as an excuse. This is a get it done league and not nice try League.
They didn’t even make it into the playoffs this year and it is a massive failure.
If the Leafs ever want to win the Cup, they are destined to run into teams with great defence or out of this World Goaltending or teams with better offensive weapons than them....The run to the Cup won’t be (using this season as a ref) Wings, Sens, Sabres and Ducks. It will be always be teams like Bruins, TB, Caps, Flyers, BJs, Canes....

This isnt a clinical analysis of what happened. Everyone can do better but there are degrees to this. What part of the team outplayed Columbus and what part of the team didn't and under what circumstances?. If you load up a line and they are dominating possessions and scoring chances, the resultant depletion of defensive skill deployment elsewhere from Columbus, should give more chances for other lines to multiply the scoring chances on the Leafs. The game has a probabilistic element to it but the shooting percentages are irrelevant if you arent getting shots relative to the other team. It is logical to treat gaping wounds before dealing with scrapes.

 

[Gallagbi]

In your need to seem conciliatory, do you think your judgement of Marner has been clinical or has it been tainted. Either Marner was great, good or poor. You seem to be pushing a bit of a narrative of an unrealistic weighting of Marners culpability in the loss.
There might be agendas but truth shouldn't be sacrificed on the alter of diplomacy.

It's not about avoiding all biases, it's about not tying every decision to the person who has made it.

As for Marner I think he's a good hockey player who is overpaid and based on those new expectations he isn't at the level he needs to be. He's had some incredible games this year and some less than incredible ones, I like to think I can highlight both even if I don't feel he's had enough of the incredible ones to justify the money he wanted.

 

[Coatsy79]

Unlikely senario, trade marner for a retained Doughty, trade relevant pieces to make room to sign Pie, Defense fixed if only

 

[paulhiggins]

Do you really want the guy who traded Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot handling a Marner or Nylander trade? GMs are salivating over their spare parts with the thought of that.

 

[Notsince67]

It's not about avoiding all biases, it's about not tying every decision to the person who has made it.

As for Marner I think he's a good hockey player who is overpaid and based on those new expectations he isn't at the level he needs to be. He's had some incredible games this year and some less than incredible ones, I like to think I can highlight both even if I don't feel he's had enough of the incredible ones to justify the money he wanted.

Finding a flea on a dog doesnt mean it is infested. No player is perfect. Saying you should expect more is a motherhood statement. Misrepresenting a performance as not living up to his contract when he was on a 93 point annualized pace in the regular season and led the team in possession in the playoffs is just disingenuous. It does little to advance a clinical diagnosis of the team's ills and feeds the Marner haters who grasp at any dumb thing to disparage the kid.

 

[Gallagbi]

Finding a flea on a dog doesnt mean it is infested. No player is perfect. Saying you should expect more is a motherhood statement. Misrepresenting a performance as not living up to his contract when he was on a 93 point annualized pace in the regular season and led the team in possession in the playoffs is just disingenuous. It does little to advance a clinical diagnosis of the team's ills and feeds the Marner haters who grasp at any dumb thing to disparage the kid.

So here's what I see with Marner

In my eyes, he wasn't worth the 11M/yr he signed for on the day it was signed. Debatable, sure, but he's in tough to match that deal off the bat. In the year after he signed, his overall production was steady, but his Goals per game dropped as did his primary assist rates. That's both all situations and ES if you're curious. Not marginally either, primary points in all situations were down 11 points over a full season, ES is 17.

When I watch, I see a guy who isn't driving the play like he did the year prior. He's more passive, not as active in the offensive zone and not pulling defenders out of position as much because of it. *Checks stats* that aligns with the production and how I interpret it. Let me know what I'm missing here in your eyes

In playoffs, it was much of the same. I expect good possession numbers, honestly, I expect his to be the best. He's the primary handler on the team and the only one of the big 3 who spent every game with at least 1 other $11M player. Given CBJ was quick to drop the line and largely played passive D, the loaded line (his) should generate the most shot opportunities. Seems like they did - which is good.

What I would like to see for playoffs is how many opportunities he created. What role did he play in generating chances for his C's because he wasn't strong generating his own this year as a whole (compared to the year prior) which was steady in the season and playoffs.

Now none of this says Marner is bad, that'd be crazy to suggest. The question I have is how good is he and how good are we paying him to be.

Happy to look at other factors that I haven't considered or you interpret differently.

 

[therealkoho]

Where did I say you can't hate a player/gm/coach but still praise them for their good moves or vice versa?

How does age come into this? Seriously?

Dubas is calling the fans who doubt marner "idiotic".

Many of these same fans think dubas is the greatest gm around.

I find it genuinely hilarious.

Like you said, its not complicated.

Also, the rest of your post shows you are just a troll. Get back under your bridge.

You're associating one move a GM made with how they have to be perceived overall.

I can hate a GM and say they made a good move or two. I can also do the opposite.

Your posts suggests you have to love all the moves if you're a fan of a GM, which is idiotic

seriously it's an ugly word and more seriously why hate anybody

 

[Gallagbi]

seriously it's an ugly word and more seriously why hate anybody

You're spot on and appreciate you flagging it

 

[Stamkos4life]

seriously it's an ugly word and more seriously why hate anybody

Talk to @Gallagbi

I never even used the word "hate" until they did.

 

[Gallagbi]

Talk to @Gallagbi

I never even used the word "hate" until they did.

He did, my response is above yours if you're curious.

 

[Notsince67]

So here's what I see with Marner

In my eyes, he wasn't worth the 11M/yr he signed for on the day it was signed. Debatable, sure, but he's in tough to match that deal off the bat. In the year after he signed, his overall production was steady, but his Goals per game dropped as did his primary assist rates. That's both all situations and ES if you're curious. Not marginally either, primary points in all situations were down 11 points over a full season, ES is 17.

When I watch, I see a guy who isn't driving the play like he did the year prior. He's more passive, not as active in the offensive zone and not pulling defenders out of position as much because of it. *Checks stats* that aligns with the production and how I interpret it. Let me know what I'm missing here in your eyes

In playoffs, it was much of the same. I expect good possession numbers, honestly, I expect his to be the best. He's the primary handler on the team and the only one of the big 3 who spent every game with at least 1 other $11M player. Given CBJ was quick to drop the line and largely played passive D, the loaded line (his) should generate the most shot opportunities. Seems like they did - which is good.

What I would like to see for playoffs is how many opportunities he created. What role did he play in generating chances for his C's because he wasn't strong generating his own this year as a whole (compared to the year prior) which was steady in the season and playoffs.

Now none of this says Marner is bad, that'd be crazy to suggest. The question I have is how good is he and how good are we paying him to be.

Happy to look at other factors that I haven't considered or you interpret differently.

So marner had 4 points in 5 games and average 3 shots per game. He handled the puck a lot.
Matthew's had 6 points in 5 games and averaged over 5 shots per game. On the other side of his line, Tavares had 3 points in 5 games while generating almost 5 shots per game. It seems to me that the issue was in finishing, not shot generation. It is pretty disingenuous to say that Marner wasn't contributing to chances given he was the main zone entry puck carrier. Why dont you try to dig up evidence that he didn't contribute. I saw nothing of the kind. That line generated a lot of chances yet couldn't finish.

 

[Gallagbi]

So marner had 4 points in 5 games and average 3 shots per game. He handled the puck a lot.
Matthew's had 6 points in 5 games and averaged over 5 shots per game. On the other side of his line, Tavares had 3 points in 5 games while generating almost 5 shots per game. It seems to me that the issue was in finishing, not shot generation. It is pretty disingenuous to say that Marner wasn't contributing to chances given he was the main zone entry puck carrier. Why dont you try to dig up evidence that he didn't contribute. I saw nothing of the kind. That line generated a lot of chances yet couldn't finish.

Good point on the big shooters getting looks, but I did expect more coming off Marners plays rather than other skaters. To clarify, it's not that Marner didn't contribute to chances, it's a question of whether he contributed to them in a similar quantity as JT/Matthews.

Game 3 was likely his best as a whole and he was jumping. That's what I wanted to see more of. In and out of traffic, disrupting the D and making great passes. That was the game he sets Willy up for his PPG, setup Matthews for a great onetimer just prior and I'm pretty sure Mitch hit a post.

Curious on your thoughts for the regular season numbers. Any of that surprising for you or do you consider the increase in secondary assist "equal value" to the primary points decrease we saw this year?

Edit - I'm not trying to be unreasonable and am open to the idea that my bias from his contract and negotiations are clouding my judgement