Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

[21ByTorML12]

I feel like a lot has been said about this topic but the farm team has yet to be mentioned. A big part of why leafs fans feel this "rebuild" started when shanny came in is because he cleaned house in scouting and coaching throughout the organization. Including the hiring of keefe as head coach of the marlies. Torontos AHL squad is 1st in the league by a decent margin, with the best overall GA by 16 goals on the next best team. Not to mention an insane goal differential of +64. Proving that the system in place is focused on defense. If they hold out their position it would be the 2nd time in 3 years theyve finished tops in the league. We have to look at the big picture as to why the leafs have been successful. Yes theyve been lucky at the draft table but its the DEVELOPEMENT that has impressed me most.

 

[LeafFever]

I feel like a lot has been said about this topic but the farm team has yet to be mentioned. A big part of why leafs fans feel this "rebuild" started when shanny came in is because he cleaned house in scouting and coaching throughout the organization. Including the hiring of keefe as head coach of the marlies. Torontos AHL squad is 1st in the league by a decent margin, with the best overall GA by 16 goals on the next best team. Not to mention an insane goal differential of +64. Proving that the system in place is focused on defense. If they hold out their position it would be the 2nd time in 3 years theyve finished tops in the league. We have to look at the big picture as to why the leafs have been successful. Yes theyve been lucky at the draft table but its the DEVELOPEMENT that has impressed me most.

That Marlies D is unstoppable. That's why I don't get why people act like the Leafs can't get better on D. They have the prospects. In fact Dermott already came from that team and has helped immensely.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Yes but they can demand a pretty significant price?

So? The team and the player will be governed by the rules regarding salaries for RFAs. Didn't help Trouba at all when he refused (it was his right) the apparent long term offering from the Jets. He settled for much less.

 

[Torontonian]

The leafs are 1 top 4 d-man and a good #4C away from being an elite team

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

The leafs are 1 top 4 d-man and a good #4C away from being an elite team

LMAO!

 

[Gil Gunderson]

How come the Oilers and Sabres are a crap show then?

It’s right place at the right time thing too.

Then good drafting and development.

 

[Torontonian]

LMAO!

You can "LMAO" all you want... But the only joke here is Edmonton drafting a generational player and are sitting 8 points from last in the league. At least give me a reason why. Currently sitting tied for 5th in the NHL and 4 points from first, our defensive play has improved dramatically, we have great depth on forward with tons of speed and with the emergence of Dermott a d-core with Reilly-Hainsey Gardnier - A top 4 dman Zaitzev-Dermott the defense doesn't look that bad. Not to mention our goaltender is a beast.

 

[Egghead1999]

Matthews was a no-brainer.
Maybe Hanifin over Marner.
Maybe Ehlers over Nylander.
I can't remember 2012 much but know that Lindholm may have been portrayed as a reach at 6. Pretty sure Rielly was the standard pick.

I think their decisions were pretty easy based on where they drafted and how the drafts went.

Do you know who is Canucks 2014 6OA?

 

[Dempsey]

The difference between the Leafs and Oilers is that the Leafs didn't completely strip their team down to nothing and then rely on a fresh new first overall pick to save the day season after season. They still had JVR, Kadri, Bozak, etc., and then added the top prospects to that. As an Oilers fan that's my view on it.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

You can "LMAO" all you want... But the only joke here is Edmonton drafting a generational player and are sitting 8 points from last in the league. At least give me a reason why. Currently sitting tied for 5th in the NHL and 4 points from first, our defensive play has improved dramatically, we have great depth on forward with tons of speed and with the emergence of Dermott a d-core with Reilly-Hainsey Gardnier - A top 4 dman Zaitzev-Dermott the defense doesn't look that bad. Not to mention our goaltender is a beast.

Wrong again! I am not a Oilers fan at all...check my past posts.

I'll give you a hint; my team is only 7 points behind with 2 games in hand and also didn't humiliate themselves with a "tank" and embarrass themselves and their fans over and over again with high draft picks...

LMAO!

 

[nbwingsfan]

The leafs are 1 top 4 d-man and a good #4C away from being an elite team

Id say more a top 2D but other than that I agree.

Not popular among Leaf fans, but trading Nylander/Marner for McDonough (with extension) and resigning JVR would put them in cup contention for a while. VERY rarely do top pairing D become available, especially ones who are relatively young.

 

[Pookie]

We most definitely were aiming for one. What the hell does "There will be pain" mean to you? That first year or so was Shanahan evaluating the team while making minor moves.

Once Carlyle was fired and the tank began it was clear that a rebuild was occuring.

Here is a great article figuring out 'when' it began.

APRIL 12, 2015 – THE LEAFS FIRE *takes a deep breath* GM DAVE NONIS, HEAD COACH PETER HORACHEK, ASSISTANT COACHES STEVE SPOTT AND CHRIS DENNIS, GOALIE COACH RICK ST. CROIX, CHIEF PRO SCOUT STEVE KASPER, DIRECTOR OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT JIM HUGHES, AND 18 SCOUTS

Is prob the true start of it. That was almost a year to the day of Shanahan being hired and right as the season ended. Signifying a rebuilding of not just the players, but the organization.

Look, we weren’t aiming for a rebuild and there are a couple of indisputable facts that point to it.

1. When he was hired, he proclaimed “this is not a gut job”. His boss felt they were close to the playoffs.

2. The team proceed to make moves that were inconsistent with “tanking”... resigning Carlyle. Firing him when he was losing a grip on a playoff spot (if the goal is a tank you don’t fire a coach on a losing streak). Bringing in role players in exchange for draft picks. Etc.

3. Perhaps most telling is that he had to go to the Board.... in February... for permission to ALTER the direction of the team. Which means a DIFFERENT direction from which they started the season. That’s when “Scorched Earth” was approved.

We got a rebuild but it didn’t start out that way.

 

[BruinLVGA]

The Leafs are stacked. They have 10 30 point players. Better than anyone.

Ah, points totals... The usual "let's not look at how many games we played more than other teams and how many games other players have missed in order to make a misleading point" spiel.

Here then...
Those ten 30 points Leafs producers in relation to games played... 387 points in 600 games = 0.64 ppg.

Boston, top 10 points producers vs games played... 374 points in 510 games = 0.73 ppg.

Winnipeg, same exercise... 401 points in 551 games = 0.72 ppg.

Tampa, same exercise... 465 points in 578 games = 0.80 ppg.
Note: they too have at least ten players who have at least 30 points, regardless of games played.

Vegas, same exercise... 411 points in 579 games = 0.71 ppg.

Leafs are also tied with Nashville at 0.64 ppg.

So, that "better than anyone", when put in context, truly doesn't mean that. It just means "played more games & been healthier than the others".

 

[bionic]

I feel like a lot has been said about this topic but the farm team has yet to be mentioned. A big part of why leafs fans feel this "rebuild" started when shanny came in is because he cleaned house in scouting and coaching throughout the organization. Including the hiring of keefe as head coach of the marlies. Torontos AHL squad is 1st in the league by a decent margin, with the best overall GA by 16 goals on the next best team. Not to mention an insane goal differential of +64. Proving that the system in place is focused on defense. If they hold out their position it would be the 2nd time in 3 years theyve finished tops in the league. We have to look at the big picture as to why the leafs have been successful. Yes theyve been lucky at the draft table but its the DEVELOPEMENT that has impressed me most.

This is a great point that a lot of people overlook. The rebuild also included rebuilding the Marlies and putting a development system in place where any player that get called up can jump right in without having to learn the system. That's a real good pool of young players to call on when need be.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I feel like a lot has been said about this topic but the farm team has yet to be mentioned. A big part of why leafs fans feel this "rebuild" started when shanny came in is because he cleaned house in scouting and coaching throughout the organization. Including the hiring of keefe as head coach of the marlies. Torontos AHL squad is 1st in the league by a decent margin, with the best overall GA by 16 goals on the next best team. Not to mention an insane goal differential of +64. Proving that the system in place is focused on defense. If they hold out their position it would be the 2nd time in 3 years theyve finished tops in the league. We have to look at the big picture as to why the leafs have been successful. Yes theyve been lucky at the draft table but its the DEVELOPEMENT that has impressed me most.

I like the fact that when the Leafs assign a player to the AHL these days, they actually develop and the ones that are supposed to do well, actually do well. It wasn't that long ago they'd send a young player down, they would languish in the AHL with mediocre numbers then the team would give up on them. Feels a lot different now.

 

[LeafFever]

Ah, points totals... The usual "let's not look at how many games we played more than other teams and how many games other players have missed in order to make a misleading point" spiel.

Here then...
Those ten 30 points Leafs producers in relation to games played... 387 points in 600 games = 0.64 ppg.

Boston, top 10 points producers vs games played... 374 points in 510 games = 0.73 ppg.

Winnipeg, same exercise... 401 points in 551 games = 0.72 ppg.

Tampa, same exercise... 465 points in 578 games = 0.80 ppg.
Note: they too have at least ten players who have at least 30 points, regardless of games played.

Vegas, same exercise... 411 points in 579 games = 0.71 ppg.

Leafs are also tied with Nashville at 0.64 ppg.

So, that "better than anyone", when put in context, truly doesn't mean that. It just means "played more games & been healthier than the others".

How is stating they have more 30 point players than anyone misleading? They do. They also have guys getting that production with relatively small ice-time. If you want to break it down more you should include TOI with those GP.
That goes with my laughed at point I made in the Barzal thread about how impressive Marner's point totals actually are, and how much closer he'd be without 50 games in a bottom 6 role.
You'll find taht many players PPG decreases with more games played BTW. It's an advantage to play less games.

 

[LeafFever]

Wrong again! I am not a Oilers fan at all...check my past posts.

I'll give you a hint; my team is only 7 points behind with 2 games in hand and also didn't humiliate themselves with a "tank" and embarrass themselves and their fans over and over again with high draft picks...

LMAO!

What's ironic is the Leafs are only 5 points back from having the best record in the entire NHL. You know, it's the Leafs, the team you believe is so far from cup contention...
You scoffed at the Leafs being 1 good Dman away from being an elite contender. Please advise how many players they are away then.

 

[LeafFever]

The difference between the Leafs and Oilers is that the Leafs didn't completely strip their team down to nothing and then rely on a fresh new first overall pick to save the day season after season. They still had JVR, Kadri, Bozak, etc., and then added the top prospects to that. As an Oilers fan that's my view on it.

And the Oilers hired a horrific GM that stripped all their depth down once they got it.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Every rebuilding team should just get a Matthews, obviously.




It's the same story. Draft smart, draft often.

Even the best drafting teams need a certain amount of luck on their side. This is mitigated by spending money on good scouts and management, which is probably the first step.

Either way, we shouldn't count our chickens yet. We have had some good (high) picks and luck has been on our side as well, but there's still work to be done.

 

[BruinLVGA]

How is stating they have more 30 point players than anyone misleading? They do. They also have guys getting that production with relatively small ice-time. If you want to break it down more you should include TOI with those GP.
That goes with my laughed at point I made in the Barzal thread about how impressive Marner's point totals actually are, and how much closer he'd be without 50 games in a bottom 6 role.
You'll find taht many players PPG decreases with more games played BTW. It's an advantage to play less games.

Saying that the Leafs have ten 30 points players isn't misleading. Saying that it's "better than anyone" is.

That is because:
1. It is not factual, as Tampa also has ten 30 points players.

But most of all because

2. By disregarding games played by the other teams and games played by each team's top 10 points producers, that achievement ("ten 30 points players") is devoid of the meaning ("better than anyone") you were trying to attribute to it.

I showed you that there's a bunch of teams whose top 10 points producers are performing at a much higher ppg than the Leafs' top 10 points producers.
I mean... In that, the Leafs are tied with Nashville (which is great, even though Nashville is mostly known for its great D rather than offense, but still...), but Vegas, Boston, Tampa, and Winnipeg's top 10 points producers are putting up points at a 11% to 25% better clip than Toronto. Hardly a "better than anyone" for Toronto, no?

As I already said, it's just (significantly) more games for Toronto and its top 10 points producers than anybody else.
Look for example the Bruins: the 10 points producers are averaging 37.4 points and 51 games played. The Leafs top 10 points producers are averaging 38.7 points and 60 games played. Are you telling me that these numbers tell you that the Leafs players are doing better ("better than anyone", even)? And you can use all those other teams' numbers and the look is the same.

I also happen to think that the TOI argument is not of much importance here. We are talking about 10 players vs 10 players for each team. I am sure that TOI essentially would be similar. I could see this argument if it was 1 or 2 players vs another 1 or 2 players, but not 10 vs 10.

 

[BruinLVGA]

What's ironic is the Leafs are only 5 points back from having the best record in the entire NHL. You know, it's the Leafs, the team you believe is so far from cup contention...
You scoffed at the Leafs being 1 good Dman away from being an elite contender. Please advise how many players they are away then.

Again, misleading. Because of games played. Everyone ahead of the Leafs has anywhere between 2 and 4 games in hand. Those 5 points aren't 5 points anymore unless you think that the 5 teams ahead of you would lose all their games in hand. Highly unlikely.

You can't keep disregarding this stuff if you want to make a serious argument.

 

[nobody]

Saying that the Leafs have ten 30 points players isn't misleading. Saying that it's "better than anyone" is.

That is because:
1. It is not factual, as Tampa also has ten 30 points players.

But most of all because

2. By disregarding games played by the other teams and games played by each team's top 10 points producers, that achievement ("ten 30 points players") is devoid of the meaning ("better than anyone") you were trying to attribute to it.

I showed you that there's a bunch of teams whose top 10 points producers are performing at a much higher ppg than the Leafs' top 10 points producers.
I mean... In that, the Leafs are tied with Nashville (which is great, even though Nashville is mostly known for its great D rather than offense, but still...), but Vegas, Boston, Tampa, and Winnipeg's top 10 points producers are putting up points at a 11% to 25% better clip than Toronto. Hardly a "better than anyone" for Toronto, no?

As I already said, it's just (significantly) more games for Toronto and its top 10 points producers than anybody else.
Look for example the Bruins: the 10 points producers are averaging 37.4 points and 51 games played. The Leafs top 10 points producers are averaging 38.7 points and 60 games played. Are you telling me that these numbers tell you that the Leafs players are doing better ("better than anyone", even)? And you can use all those other teams' numbers and the look is the same.

I also happen to think that the TOI argument is not of much importance here. We are talking about 10 players vs 10 players for each team. I am sure that TOI essentially would be similar. I could see this argument if it was 1 or 2 players vs another 1 or 2 players, but not 10 vs 10.

You really love to argue for the sake of arguing. His statement wasn't wrong. We're not talking point paces. We're talking actual points produced. Is it the Leafs players fault they've played 1-5 more games than other teams around the league?

 

[Blowfish]

Ah, points totals... The usual "let's not look at how many games we played more than other teams and how many games other players have missed in order to make a misleading point" spiel.

Here then...
Those ten 30 points Leafs producers in relation to games played... 387 points in 600 games = 0.64 ppg.

Boston, top 10 points producers vs games played... 374 points in 510 games = 0.73 ppg.

Winnipeg, same exercise... 401 points in 551 games = 0.72 ppg.

Tampa, same exercise... 465 points in 578 games = 0.80 ppg.
Note: they too have at least ten players who have at least 30 points, regardless of games played.

Vegas, same exercise... 411 points in 579 games = 0.71 ppg.

Leafs are also tied with Nashville at 0.64 ppg.

So, that "better than anyone", when put in context, truly doesn't mean that. It just means "played more games & been healthier than the others".

Thanks for this...it's unbelievable how many games lost bruins have experienced not to mention how many games on hand they hold over the entire NHL. Hope we can revisit this end of year before playoffs start.

 

[Saidin]

Saying that the Leafs have ten 30 points players isn't misleading. Saying that it's "better than anyone" is.

That is because:
1. It is not factual, as Tampa also has ten 30 points players.

But most of all because

2. By disregarding games played by the other teams and games played by each team's top 10 points producers, that achievement ("ten 30 points players") is devoid of the meaning ("better than anyone") you were trying to attribute to it.

I showed you that there's a bunch of teams whose top 10 points producers are performing at a much higher ppg than the Leafs' top 10 points producers.
I mean... In that, the Leafs are tied with Nashville (which is great, even though Nashville is mostly known for its great D rather than offense, but still...), but Vegas, Boston, Tampa, and Winnipeg's top 10 points producers are putting up points at a 11% to 25% better clip than Toronto. Hardly a "better than anyone" for Toronto, no?

As I already said, it's just (significantly) more games for Toronto and its top 10 points producers than anybody else.
Look for example the Bruins: the 10 points producers are averaging 37.4 points and 51 games played. The Leafs top 10 points producers are averaging 38.7 points and 60 games played. Are you telling me that these numbers tell you that the Leafs players are doing better ("better than anyone", even)? And you can use all those other teams' numbers and the look is the same.

I also happen to think that the TOI argument is not of much importance here. We are talking about 10 players vs 10 players for each team. I am sure that TOI essentially would be similar. I could see this argument if it was 1 or 2 players vs another 1 or 2 players, but not 10 vs 10.

#LeafLogic - Whatever spin they use to make themselves look better... Keep up the good fight!

 

[bionic]

Again, misleading. Because of games played. Everyone ahead of the Leafs has anywhere between 2 and 4 games in hand. Those 5 points aren't 5 points anymore unless you think that the 5 teams ahead of you would lose all their games in hand. Highly unlikely.

You can't keep disregarding this stuff if you want to make a serious argument.

You do understand that the reason the Leafs have played so many games is because of a crazy schedule they have had up to this point. When you constantly play 3 games in 4 nights and back to back games it's harder to win the games on the back end. It's one of the reasons that Babcock has not been playing his stars big minutes. Yet despite the hectic and cramped schedule the leafs have still continued to win.