TSN: Leafs in on Vatanen

[Jeypic]

Nice try but that's not what he said. He said Vatanen may go for a price greater than the Leafs are willing to pay. Nothing about that fits your narrative that Toronto can get Vatanen for peanuts, time to let it go.

Jvr isn't a peanut

 

[The Noot]

Jvr isn't a peanut

From another thread that involved JVR going to the Ducks:

Look, I don't want to sound condescending, but it has to be said after roughly 3567532684 proposals.

If your proposal includes both of the words "Anaheim" (also "ANH", "ANA", "Ducks" or the name of any Anaheim player) and "JVR"...

DON'T POST IT.

We don't want him Get over it.

 

[zeke]

I get that many Toronto fans don't think Vatanen is worth Kapanen or Brown.

Fine, but here's my question - if Toronto wants to upgrade its defense (which is what we're being told), how do they do that without giving up something valuable, like Kapanen or Brown? Even if its not for Vats, aren't Kapenen and Brown the most likely trade options? What else are you offering.

1. I suppose you can sign Shattenkirk - more more expensive and lots of term, that eventually creates cap issues when you need to resign your young players. If Kapanen or Brown are as good as claimed, can you keep them as well as the big 3 given the salary cap?

2. Trade JVR or Bozak? An option, but what do they bring back? Both are good players but with only one year left on their deals, what kind of d-men does they get in return? Maybe a guy with a similar deal? Is that type of deal consistent with Toronto's rebuild, or do they want a 25 year old dman with term (like Vats)? I don't think JVR/Bozak get you someone like Vats (a top 4 defensemen with a good contract for 3 more years). Kadri does but I'm assuming you want to keep him as part of your core (or at least value him more than Brown/Kapanen).

3. Wait for prospects in your pipeline? Not sure what you have - maybe that's an option. But that doesn't help you next year or probably the year after.

Bottom line - Toronto is the opposite of the Ducks. Ducks have lots of good young defenseman and Toronto has young top lelvel forwards. In a perfect world, the ducks would keep all of their defensemen but that's not an option (and likewise for Toronto with their forwards). Even if there were not an expansion draft, the ducks would have been looking to move defensemen (Vats, or if they couldn't sign him, fowler) to balance their roster and salary cap. Yes, the ducks have a more immediate need to make a move (due to expansion draft), but it boils down to trading something you value but have lots of for something you need.

Which brings me back to my original question - how does Toronto improve its D without giving up something of value (i.e., Kapanen or Brown)?

a) there's no rush. the leafs have time to wait for a good fit.
b) vatanen is a nice player, but isn't exactly a solution for the leafs. he improves them, but doesn't complete them.
c) the likes of kapanen and brown are definitely available for the right fit.
d) how many teams do you think the ducks could ask for the other team's top prospect for vatanen? PLUS?

 

[ponder]

I sincerely hope we're NOT in on Vatanen. He's a decent dman, but not what we need, at all. We've got a good 2nd pairing in Gards/Zaitsev, and one good top pairing dman in Rielly, we need a 2D that compliments Rielly. Rielly is at his best when he can take chances offensively, the right partner for him is strong defensively and a natural stay at home type, full stop. Talent wise, a good Rielly partner needs to be capable of playing on a top pairing, but doesn't have to be overly strong offensively, that's just a bonus.

Someone like Tanev fits our needs very well, but Vatanen does not. I'd rather give up more for a very good fit, like Tanev, than make a poor-fit trade for a guy like Vatanen.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Unless you protect four defencemen, as some teams with four really high quality defencemen might do.

Ducks aren't in that group.

Ducks are not protecting 4 defenseman because that means we have to protect Getzlaf,Perry,and Kesler and having 1 spot to protect either Rakell or Silfverberg. We don't want to lose Rakell or Silfverberg not only because they are good young players but also our forward group as a whole needs to improve we can't afford to weaken it by losing 1 of them to expansion. Also we have good defenseman prospects that can help us deal with the loss of a defenseman such as Vatanen.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Ducks are not protecting 4 defenseman because that means we have to protect Getzlaf,Perry,and Kesler and having 1 spot to protect either Rakell or Silfverberg. We don't want to lose Rakell or Silfverberg not only because they are good young players but also our forward group as a whole needs to improve we can't afford to weaken it by losing 1 of them to expansion. Also we have good defenseman prospects that can help us deal with the loss of a defenseman such as Vatanen.

However, they also have good four defensemen to protect: Manson, Lindholm, Fowler, and Theodore. I'd protect Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, and Rakell, and move on from there.

 

[howkie]

However, they also have good four defensemen to protect: Manson, Lindholm, Fowler, and Theodore. I'd protect Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, and Rakell, and move on from there.

Theo doesnt need protection....

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Theo doesn't need protection....

Okay.

 

[Halla]

We're not the only team interested so if you're low balling the Ducks they will just trade him elsewhere

good. Brown + 1st is way too much for an offensive dman coming off his worst year (and curruently out 6 months)

Brown remains in TO for a long time. babs loves him, fans loves him, he is gonna be a perfect guy on our 2nd line. wait till he gets the PP time because his 17 ES goals outscored numerous all stars last year

 

[Ducks in a row]

However, they also have good four defensemen to protect: Manson, Lindholm, Fowler, and Theodore. I'd protect Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, and Rakell, and move on from there.

Theodore is expansion exempt. I get sick of people from other teams fans talking like they know what they are saying when they don't. Too many people want to screw or see the Ducks get screwed from expansion draft that they say things they don't know

 

[Markus078]

But what will TOR offer instead? The forum does not want to trade Kapanen and Brown. Basicly none of the other players will interest ANA - sure Marner or Matthews would but thats not in play.

Vatanen is far better than most think. He is an excelltent PK, good on the PP and a right shooting puck mover. That has a lot of value and it will be really interesting to see what happens.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

But what will TOR offer instead? The forum does not want to trade Kapanen and Brown. Basicly none of the other players will interest ANA - sure Marner or Matthews would but thats not in play.

Vatanen is far better than most think. He is an excelltent PK, good on the PP and a right shooting puck mover. That has a lot of value and it will be really interesting to see what happens.

The Leafs have a ton of forward prospects. Many are NHL ready or close. There's simply not enough room for all of them. Guys like Leivo,Leipsic,Rychel etc are ready(one will be taken by LV). I'm not saying that's what the Ducks will want, but those are the types of chips the Leafs will likely use. It won't net a top D but it should get us someone decent...hopefully. Obviously teams will ask for Kapanen or Brown first but the Leafs don't have to make a move this summer. We aren't a Vatanen away from a cup.

 

[FlyingLeafus]

The Leafs have a ton of forward prospects. Many are NHL ready or close. There's simply not enough room for all of them. Guys like Leivo,Leipsic,Rychel etc are ready(one will be taken by LV). I'm not saying that's what the Ducks will want, but those are the types of chips the Leafs will likely use. It won't net a top D but it should get us someone decent...hopefully. Obviously teams will ask for Kapanen or Brown first but the Leafs don't have to make a move this summer. We aren't a Vatanen away from a cup.

Not to mention that both Kap and Brown are more likely to increase their trade value for next off-season than decrease. Better to be patient and re-assess who will be available with stronger trade pieces than gamble away youth now. It was pleasant to see the youngsters propel them to the playoffs, but if we miss because we didn't acquire Vatanen for Brown/Kap + 1st I can live with it.

 

[Tripod]

I sincerely hope we're NOT in on Vatanen. He's a decent dman, but not what we need, at all. We've got a good 2nd pairing in Gards/Zaitsev, and one good top pairing dman in Rielly, we need a 2D that compliments Rielly. Rielly is at his best when he can take chances offensively, the right partner for him is strong defensively and a natural stay at home type, full stop. Talent wise, a good Rielly partner needs to be capable of playing on a top pairing, but doesn't have to be overly strong offensively, that's just a bonus.

Someone like Tanev fits our needs very well, but Vatanen does not. I'd rather give up more for a very good fit, like Tanev, than make a poor-fit trade for a guy like Vatanen.

Now this is a post that makes 100% sense.

Until you look at a Tanev to Leafs thread and see what Leaf fans offer for that top pairing Dman. He then "becomes" a top 4 Dman in an attempt to lower his value and offer less.

Funny to watch.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

The Leafs have a ton of forward prospects. Many are NHL ready or close. There's simply not enough room for all of them. Guys like Leivo,Leipsic,Rychel etc are ready(one will be taken by LV). I'm not saying that's what the Ducks will want, but those are the types of chips the Leafs will likely use. It won't net a top D but it should get us someone decent...hopefully. Obviously teams will ask for Kapanen or Brown first but the Leafs don't have to make a move this summer. We aren't a Vatanen away from a cup.

Those pieces listed will get you a bottom pairing dmen... maybe someone of carricks skill level.

 

[thewave]

Those pieces listed will get you a bottom pairing dmen... maybe someone of carricks skill level.

The point is we havent evaluated them at the NHL. We know they have had a measure of AHL success. Leivo just keeps putting up points every time he is on the ice and could be better than brown. We also like Carrick and Lou said he was an A prospect. So are we going to get Vats off the ducks? The more this drags out the more it looks like the Leafs will just do its work in the FA and Drafts.

If the price is low I am sure the leafs will make a move regardless, just doubt we bother getting into a bidding war.

 

[AkiLumme]

Might be time to set up a Kapanen/Brown for a defenseman thread.

 

[The CyNick]

Kapanen and Sosh are fighting for one job at camp. They are lost likely to be traded. I would say Sosh is more likely, but obviously Kap will return the better player. I don't think either get Kapanen.

 

[Trapper]

If the Leafs are interested in Vatanen, I'm sure they will make a legit offer.
However, we aren't selling the farm, whatever people think that is.

Please stop setting the bar at Hall for Larsson as well, the desperation of 1 GM and an organization that hadn't made the playoffs for a decade, didn't care about the price. Someone (most likely Hall with Lucic being signed) was going regardless of win or return. Edmonton took a big risk but you can afford to do that with McDavid.
This isn't the bar for all your future returns otherwise Erat would still be getting you Forsberg.

Pittsburgh won the Cup with an adequate defense. The Leafs aren't desperate, they made the playoffs with the current squad. A UFA like Daley or whoever might be in order. Ducks should trade for all they can get. Doesn't mean we have to give them all they can take.

 

[thewave]

If the Leafs are interested in Vatanen, I'm sure they will make a legit offer.
However, we aren't selling the farm, whatever people think that is.

Please stop setting the bar at Hall for Larsson as well, the desperation of 1 GM and an organization that hadn't made the playoffs for a decade, didn't care about the price. Someone (most likely Hall with Lucic being signed) was going regardless of win or return. Edmonton took a big risk but you can afford to do that with McDavid.
This isn't the bar for all your future returns otherwise Erat would still be getting you Forsberg.

Pittsburgh won the Cup with an adequate defense. The Leafs aren't desperate, they made the playoffs with the current squad. A UFA like Daley or whoever might be in order. Ducks should trade for all they can get. Doesn't mean we have to give them all they can take.

Problem is they believe there will be an outrageous bidding war for a player most teams dont have a protection slot for.

How many teams actually legit have the 3rd slot available realistically and that will tell you all you need to know.

Leafs can trade for Vats pay Kappy as they say and then what? Lose our best D prospect?

 

[Curufinwe]

Theodore is expansion exempt. I get sick of people from other teams fans talking like they know what they are saying when they don't. Too many people want to screw or see the Ducks get screwed from expansion draft that they say things they don't know

I'm not even an Anaheim fan, but the Ducks-are-going-to-expose-Silfverberg crap has been driving me nuts.

 

[Trapper]

Problem is they believe there will be an outrageous bidding war for a player most teams dont have a protection slot for.

How many teams actually legit have the 3rd slot available realistically and that will tell you all you need to know.

Leafs can trade for Vats pay Kappy as they say and then what? Lose our best D prospect?

Yes you might almost be better off letting Vegas pick their squad and making deals in that respect. Vegas will almost certainly require young forwards as they try to stock their team. The D available through expansion looks much greater than the forwards available. This is the first draft for Vegas, I'm sure they would also like some 20/21 year old prospects as well. Some players a little further along.
Vegas has to pick 9 D, they could end up with a collection of Methot,Dumba/Brodin,Vatanen,McQuaid/Miller,De haan/Pulock,etc. etc.

 

[Jeypic]

Ducks are not protecting 4 defenseman because that means we have to protect Getzlaf,Perry,and Kesler and having 1 spot to protect either Rakell or Silfverberg. We don't want to lose Rakell or Silfverberg not only because they are good young players but also our forward group as a whole needs to improve we can't afford to weaken it by losing 1 of them to expansion.Also we have good defenseman prospects that can help us deal with the loss of a defenseman such as Vatanen.

Every team you try to trade vatanen too will say the same thing to you about the player they now have to lose to get him. Your options are limited.

Problem is they believe there will be an outrageous bidding war for a player most teams dont have a protection slot for.

How many teams actually legit have the 3rd slot available realistically and that will tell you all you need to know.

Leafs can trade for Vats pay Kappy as they say and then what? Lose our best D prospect?

See? We even have to say it if we send you someone expansion exempt. And we are in a better spot then every other team pre expansion. (We could send you jvr or brown and not lose our best d by going 4 4 1, but that's cuz we got 89489596997757 rookies on our team that are all protected.)

 

[fahad203]

If the Leafs are interested in Vatanen, I'm sure they will make a legit offer.
However, we aren't selling the farm, whatever people think that is.

Please stop setting the bar at Hall for Larsson as well, the desperation of 1 GM and an organization that hadn't made the playoffs for a decade, didn't care about the price. Someone (most likely Hall with Lucic being signed) was going regardless of win or return. Edmonton took a big risk but you can afford to do that with McDavid.
This isn't the bar for all your future returns otherwise Erat would still be getting you Forsberg.

Pittsburgh won the Cup with an adequate defense. The Leafs aren't desperate, they made the playoffs with the current squad. A UFA like Daley or whoever might be in order. Ducks should trade for all they can get. Doesn't mean we have to give them all they can take.

I disagree respectfully. The Pens won the Stantly Cup without legit D but that doesn't mean they didn't plan for it. They had Letang part of the plan, it just happens he got injured and he managed to without him. Nashville outplayed Pitts in a lot of games, Pens had a lot of things just going for them. Even Pens fans will agree they cannot win with the same squad.

I am not suggesting Leafs are desperate. I think they should be. Considering what's available this summer. I think people think if we trade for Vantanen, we are trading the farm. Let's not forget, hes' 25 years old. He isn't some UFA who's 31+ and we are trading on the deadline. He's 25, has 3 more years of a solid contract, can skate and QB a PP. If you are not trading a Kapanen or a Brown for a D like that, who are you trading them for? Brown and Kapy aren't getting you a Karlsson

Too much is made on potentional. Brown can easily turn into a very good player who can score and play defensively. He can also turn into next Wojtek Wolski or Peter Mueller( Although he had concussion problems ). There were a lot of rookies scored 20 goals in their rookie season and only to disappear.

At least you know what you are getting with Vantanen

 

[ponder]

Now this is a post that makes 100% sense.

Until you look at a Tanev to Leafs thread and see what Leaf fans offer for that top pairing Dman. He then "becomes" a top 4 Dman in an attempt to lower his value and offer less.

Funny to watch.

Trade threads are always full of heavily biased posters, from any fanbase. Personally, I'd give up a fair bit for Tanev. Assuming the Nucks are looking to enter rebuild mode, and thus mostly want picks/prospects, my offer would be Kapanen and our 2017 1st (17th overall), which I think would be a very competitive offer if the Nucks are actually putting Tanev on the market.

I'd rather not be in on Vatanen at all, though, would far prefer to pay a higher price for a better fit.