Lame Duck GM; How Much Power Should Holland Have? Should He Have Been Fired?

[Redder Winger]

Big deal. Half the league has ~2 million or less in cap space. Among those teams are other bad ones like Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver and Chicago. "Highest payroll" is a talking point that means very little in reality other than to show that we're a "rich" team and we're still paying some contracts that were signed during successful years.

Highest payroll.
Old.
Sucky.

What a great roster your man has built.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Highest payroll.
Old.
Sucky.

What a great roster your man has built.

"Your man" lol. When you get beyond petty grudges and the childish idea that you have to choose a side and stick with it, maybe you can take an honest look at reality and understand that no one stays on top forever.

But nah, only completely moronic GMs would ever end up with a less than great situation when core players get old and cap hits inflate with team success. I mean look at Chicago, they're clearly not getting old and sucky with a high payroll. Nah let's fire Holland because he didn't do twice what 99% of other GMs can't do once (rebuild a team on the fly without missing the playoffs).

 

[RedWingzz]

Big deal. Half the league has ~2 million or less in cap space. Among those teams are other bad ones like Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver and Chicago. "Highest payroll" is a talking point that means very little in reality other than to show that we're a "rich" team and we're still paying some contracts that were signed during successful years.

Bad Holland contracts:

-Jimmy Howard, 5.25 cap hit, signed April 16 2013, after the "successful years"
-Stephen Weiss, 4.9 cap hit, signed July 5th 2013, after the "successful years"
-Jonathan Ericsson, 4.25 cap hit, signed November 27th 2013, after the "successful years"
-Abdelkader, 4.25 cap hit, signed November 12th 2015, after the "successful years"
-Drew Miller, 1.35 cap hit, signed June 27th 2016, after the "successful years"
-Nielsen, 5.25 cap hit, signed July 1st 2016, after the "successful years"
-Helm, 3.85 cap hit, signed July 1st 2016, after the "successful years"
-Dekeyser, 5 cap hit, signed July 26th 2016, after the "successful years"
-Dan Cleary, signed to several extensions even though he was terrbile

The only current bad contract I will excuse is Kronwall, because that was a good deal at the time.

 

[Flowah]

But nah, only completely moronic GMs would ever end up with a less than great situation when core players get old and cap hits inflate with team success. I mean look at Chicago, they're clearly not getting old and sucky with a high payroll. Nah let's fire Holland because he didn't do twice what 99% of other GMs can't do once (rebuild a team on the fly without missing the playoffs).

We are a decade removed from a cup. They won 3 in a 6 year span and paid the stars, under 30, who did it for them.

We haven't advanced past the 2nd round in how long? Which stars did we pay? Which players are occupying the cap space on our roster?

Yes, we're both teams trending down with little cap space. But beyond that Chicago and Detroit's situations are not comparable. They got better results and their money is tied up in vastly superior, younger players.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We are a decade removed from a cup. They won 3 in a 6 year span and paid the stars, under 30, who did it for them.

We haven't advanced past the 2nd round in how long? Which stars did we pay? Which players are occupying the cap space on our roster?

Talking as if playoffs is 100% of what determines a player’s contract value. We had 100+ points in 14-15. Dekeyser was a ~30 point D under Babcock. Ericsson was solid on a top pairing. Z was a superstar (and still has a decent value contract), Kronwall was a #1D, Howard was right below Vezina tier and Mrazek looked poised for stardom. If you wanna make a big deal about our payroll you can’t ignore that we’re not that far removed from being a 25-year playoff team or a 100 point regular season team. Some inflated contracts are a given.

Chicago is close to where we were in the early 10’s. Keith and Seabrook won’t get younger. Toews won’t get less overpaid. The comparable is pretty simple : extended success leads to cap issues. Most of the teams that aren’t cap constrained haven’t had much success the last 10 years.

 

[Frk It]

Talking as if playoffs is 100% of what determines a player’s contract value. We had 100+ points in 14-15. Dekeyser was a ~30 point D under Babcock. Ericsson was solid on a top pairing. Z was a superstar (and still has a decent value contract), Kronwall was a #1D, Howard was right below Vezina tier and Mrazek looked poised for stardom. If you wanna make a big deal about our payroll you can’t ignore that we’re not that far removed from being a 25-year playoff team or a 100 point regular season team. Some inflated contracts are a given.

Chicago is close to where we were in the early 10’s. Keith and Seabrook won’t get younger. Toews won’t get less overpaid. The comparable is pretty simple : extended success leads to cap issues. Most of the teams that aren’t cap constrained haven’t had much success the last 10 years.

But I thought we were spending poorly now because we had no stars so we are just spending to get to the cap limit? It's almost like there is a responsible way to spend cap whether you are good or bad.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But I thought we were spending poorly now because we had no stars so we are just spending to get to the cap limit? It's almost like there is a responsible way to spend cap whether you are good or bad.

Witkowski, Daley, Booth etc are filler signings that we can do to maximize cap usage and potentially gain sellable assets.

I would agree about there being responsible ways to spend cap. If I owned the Wings I wouldn’t spend this much money on them. But if the Ilitches want to spend it, Holland would be a (fired) moron for not using that money. A couple of million in cap space does nothing for this team. 10-20 million in cap space just leads to questions about what the team could be if it used more money. At least by being a cap team we get a good idea of what we truly have.

 

[Frk It]

Witkowski, Daley, Booth etc are filler signings that we can do to maximize cap usage and potentially gain sellable assets.

I would agree about there being responsible ways to spend cap. If I owned the Wings I wouldn’t spend this much money on them. But if the Ilitches want to spend it, Holland would be a (fired) moron for not using that money. A couple of million in cap space does nothing for this team. 10-20 million in cap space just leads to questions about what the team could be if it used more money. At least by being a cap team we get a good idea of what we truly have.

Yeah, I don't have an issue with spending to the cap. Only if it results in having a large number of obstructed cap space. Guys with NTC's and/or negative trade value.

I guess ideally you would only spend to the cap in years where it makes sense to, some years the UFA crop might only have guys out there likely to have negative equity. But all that said, I don't consider the cap issues to be our biggest issue at the moment.

 

[Flowah]

I would agree about there being responsible ways to spend cap. If I owned the Wings I wouldn’t spend this much money on them. But if the Ilitches want to spend it, Holland would be a (fired) moron for not using that money.

Fine but you have to pick whether he's spending to the cap intelligently, or only doing so because his boss is forcing him to.

You're sort of trying to eat your cake and have it too

 

[ShelbyZ]

I listened to his interview with Ken Kal while dodging pot holes last night and he seemed to hit all the right notes. I found it surprising in some ways.

He did say that they probably won't be good next season, and that the focus is on building through the draft and young players, and that in the next couple of years they'll likely be moving veteran guys to keep bringing in draft picks and young players. Pointed out that they are inserting young guys into the line up and giving them big roles, etc. etc.

To me it seems like short of scorching the earth Arizona, Buffalo or Edmonton style, or inventing a time machine so he can go back an undo past trades/contracts or see how draft picks turn out, I don't see what another GM would do drastically different at this point.

For me, the entertainment value from people who meltdown and pan everything he does even down to his choice in words, or think he could do something because it works in NHL18 is enough for me to want him to stick around.

 

[Frk It]

I listened to his interview with Ken Kal while dodging pot holes last night and he seemed to hit all the right notes. I found it surprising in some ways.

He did say that they probably won't be good next season, and that the focus is on building through the draft and young players, and that in the next couple of years they'll likely be moving veteran guys to keep bringing in draft picks and young players. Pointed out that they are inserting young guys into the line up and giving them big roles, etc. etc.

To me it seems like short of scorching the earth Arizona, Buffalo or Edmonton style, or inventing a time machine so he can go back an undo past trades/contracts or see how draft picks turn out, I don't see what another GM would do drastically different at this point.

For me, the entertainment value from people who meltdown and pan everything he does even down to his choice in words, or think he could do something because it works in NHL18 is enough for me to want him to stick around.

I like what Holland has said recently better than what he was saying in the offseason. I like the Mrazek trade, and I like the trades that were made at the deadline last year. Stockpiling picks is critical for us, I give Holland props for doing a good job with that.

What could another GM do better? Make actual hockey trades and draft better. Especially defenseman. I think we are piss poor at evaluating defenseman. I don’t think we’re bad at drafting, but if you’re not going to burn it down you can’t just be good... you have to be great with your drafting. Don’t think we have that edge anymore.

 

[Dotter]

I like what Holland has said recently better than what he was saying in the offseason. I like the Mrazek trade, and I like the trades that were made at the deadline last year. Stockpiling picks is critical for us, I give Holland props for doing a good job with that.

What could another GM do better? Make actual hockey trades and draft better. Especially defenseman. I think we are piss poor at evaluating defenseman. I don’t think we’re bad at drafting, but if you’re not going to burn it down you can’t just be good... you have to be great with your drafting. Don’t think we have that edge anymore.

If the rumors are true that Kenny was pursuing Justin Faulk for AA, then that would been a world class hockey deal... for Detroit. Otherwise, I really don't know, with the assets we have, who or what would qualify for a actual hockey deal that makes sense. Rebuilding teams don't normally make hockey trades unless you're the Oilers trying to win with McDavid... and still failing.

As for drafting, how can you say draft better when the jury is still out on Tyler Wright (who drafted Larkin)? You could say fire Hakan Andersson since he hasn't done anything with his late picks recently.

Therefore, I disagree with the bolded comment. Example; CHI make actual hockey trades because they are trying to win before the window closes. Detroit is simply not there yet.

 

[Redder Winger]

A GM does the following things
Trades: F - Not a single roster player acquired by trade
Drafts: C+ - Wings have done a great job drafting guys in later rounds, but they've been so-so in the first round and terrible at drafting Dmen.
Free agents - C - The team has a number of players acquired by free agency. Nielsen. Green. Dekeyser.
Cap management - F - When you have to trade away a 25-year-old Center making $2M a year because you don't have the room to sign a 23 year old guy who just signed a $1.3M deal, and you better be a damn good hockey team. The Wings are not.

If you want to give Ken Holland an A+ from 98 to 09, go right ahead. I don't think many people will disagree.

But he's been sputtering since.

 

[Redder Winger]

If the rumors are true that Kenny was pursuing Justin Faulk for AA, then that would been a world class hockey deal... for Detroit.

??? You''re giving Holland credit for an imaginary deal? A deal that nobody anywhere talked about as a rumor, and was only speculated about after Friedman said he thought it might make sense.

 

[Dotter]

??? You''re giving Holland credit for an imaginary deal? A deal that nobody anywhere talked about as a rumor, and was only speculated about after Friedman said he thought it might make sense.

Nope. What I wrote that you clearly couldn't comprehend is that is an example of a hockey trade that would actually make sense. Try to keep up!

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

If the rumors are true that Kenny was pursuing Justin Faulk for AA, then that would been a world class hockey deal... for Detroit. Otherwise, I really don't know, with the assets we have, who or what would qualify for a actual hockey deal that makes sense. Rebuilding teams don't normally make hockey trades unless you're the Oilers trying to win with McDavid... and still failing.

As for drafting, how can you say draft better when the jury is still out on Tyler Wright (who drafted Larkin)? You could say fire Hakan Andersson since he hasn't done anything with his late picks recently.

Therefore, I disagree with the bolded comment. Example; CHI make actual hockey trades because they are trying to win before the window closes. Detroit is simply not there yet.

Faulk's numbers have been in steady decline for 4 years now and he's purported to be not very good defensively. I don't know if that would have been a world class deal.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

A GM does the following things
Trades: F - Not a single roster player acquired by trade
Drafts: C+ - Wings have done a great job drafting guys in later rounds, but they've been so-so in the first round and terrible at drafting Dmen.
Free agents - C - The team has a number of players acquired by free agency. Nielsen. Green. Dekeyser.
Cap management - F - When you have to trade away a 25-year-old Center making $2M a year because you don't have the room to sign a 23 year old guy who just signed a $1.3M deal, and you better be a damn good hockey team. The Wings are not.

If you want to give Ken Holland an A+ from 98 to 09, go right ahead. I don't think many people will disagree.

But he's been sputtering since.

I give them a little higher grade on the drafting. If their drafts were redone, Mantha and Larkin would probably be top 5 picks and most first rounders outside of the top 10 picks never become NHL regulars.
The NHL free agents they have signed have usually been terrible acquisitions but I like that they are aggressive signing late blooming undrafted free agents like Dekeyser, Hicketts, Machovsky, Sulak, Brunner, Glenny....
From 98-08 he had Bowman advising him, it's been all a shitshow since then. I don't know if it's all because of Bowman or if Kenny is developing Alzheimers (or a combination of both) but he has been consistently making ridiculously stupid decisions since Bowman left.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Faulk's numbers have been in steady decline for 4 years now and he's purported to be not very good defensively. I don't know if that would have been a world class deal.

Most people don’t know what good defense looks like.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

He should've taken the higher position when Yzerman was ready to take the reigns...

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Holland does not have a solid track record the last few years, but the lame-duck GM thing is just silly.
If he hasn't been fired yet (and he hasn't) then it looks like he still has the authority to wheel and deal on the team's behalf.
There are two likely scenarios here: Either those who own/run the team have not yet decided if Holland has a future as our GM or they have decided he will be let go, but they are keeping him in place through the duration of his contract.

If the first scenario is the case then obviously ownership is not going to handcuff their GM or stop him from making deals that he sees as being to the team's benefit, including jettisoning a younger goalie with good potential who simply doesn't fit in with the team anymore (according to management's assessment).
If the second scenario is the case then either Ilitch has given him carte blanche to run the team until he is gone or, more likely, every move he makes is being scrutinized and approved by the rest of the management team. There is no way that a GM who has already been given his walking papers would be operating without some sort of oversight - and even were he signed long-term, I highly doubt that any moves he makes would be done without running it by others in management and those who own the team.

There is no lame-duck GM running the team into the ground. It is a phantom scenario being promoted to try to lend more substance to certain opinions. If the team is being mismanaged it is being done collectively and our problems go much deeper than Ken Holland. I'm hoping we're able to stock pile some draft picks before Monday and keep building positively toward the future. This is not a free pass to Ken Holland, I will be very cool with the decision if he is not back next year, but if he is fired and we promote from within, I doubt that the team's current direction is going to change very much. I, personally, liked our last few drafts and I'm still undecided on whether our current direction is one that will yield success or not. I'm trying to be patient with the rebuilding process, but it's not always easy. Those of us who have been around for these last decades of good times and great hockey really, really have been spoiled; it makes these doldrums all the more painful, but there's nothing to do but be patient or burn it all down and start from scratch - and then be patient.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

He should've taken the higher position when Yzerman was ready to take the reigns...

He obviously wasn't ready to release the reigns. Mr. I should have forced his hand and nudged him into accepting another position; it's likely we would have lost him, but that is a likely outcome anyways and I agree with you, that the team likely would be better off had Stevie been given the controls back then. Spilled milk though

 

[Shaman464]

The way the FSD team was talking last night I would be very surprised if Holland wasn't GM next year.

 

[HIFE]

I can't remember who speculated the same thing but in his press conference Holland kept saying "I", "me", etc. referring to the next years. This is depressing. Where is Bin? I thought we were 99.99% sure Kenny was moving on???

 

[Nut Upstrom]

The way the FSD team was talking last night I would be very surprised if Holland wasn't GM next year.

I was doing a lot of paperwork during that game. I recall Mick's Indian rubber ball comment and that's about it.
Anything specific that was said that you could mention or is it just a general feeling you got?

 

[Frk It]

Any GM is going to comment like he’s going to be there for the future, til they’re not. Everything you do has future implications, you’d be dumb not to.

I could see it going both ways, we will see. Plus Holland could stay on as an advisor, in which case he would be around in the future, just in a different capacity.