Lame Duck GM; How Much Power Should Holland Have? Should He Have Been Fired?

[Heaton]

Drafting and development is Holland’s MO, just because it eventually failed while drafting late I don’t think he’ll mess up drafting high and often. Another GM might.

It is? Can you explain the failure of drafting and developing defenseman over the past 20 years then?

 

[izlez]

For example:
Over-ripening.
Loyalty.

He didn't seem to understand that the only way to get through the cap was to cut loose non-essential vets, give icetime to cheap, entry-level kids.

So much wrong with so much of this, but I just really enjoy this.

We are a team made up of "kids" right now.
We are bad.
People STILL try to claim they were right that Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Athanasiou, Frk, Sproul, Ouellett, Jensen, Pulkinnen needed to be brought up FASTER....to help the team.


If they are bad now...how can you convince yourself that they weren't bad when they were younger? The tie never went to the veteran. These guys just aren't as good as you thought

 

[Heaton]

Yeah with the worst draft position in the league he eventually failed to strike gold. It happens. Add extra picks and significantly higher draft position and give it time. Right now we’re judging mainly based on 2005-2012 drafting.

When has he struck 'gold' in the 1st round? I think Holland's time is about up, he's been 'rebuilding' since Lidstrom retired.

 

[Pavels Dog]

When has he struck 'gold' in the 1st round? I think Holland's time is about up, he's been 'rebuilding' since Lidstrom retired.

Larkin imo. Kronwall too. But for a long time our 1sts were either nonexistant or close to 2nds in actual value.

 

[Heaton]

So much wrong with so much of this, but I just really enjoy this.

We are a team made up of "kids" right now.
We are bad.
People STILL try to claim they were right that Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Athanasiou, Frk, Sproul, Ouellett, Jensen, Pulkinnen needed to be brought up FASTER....to help the team.


If they are bad now...how can you convince yourself that they weren't bad when they were younger? The tie never went to the veteran. These guys just aren't as good as you thought

Not sure about the other guys, Tatar was brought up when people expected, same with Mantha. The one argument that made sense was Nyquist, he didn't crack the lineup until he was 24 and it was painfully obvious he was better than a handful of guys on the team.

As for your last sentence, that just further illustrates the fundamental lack of understanding this management team has at rebuilding a team.

 

[Heaton]

Relative failure perhaps. If it wasn’t failure at D it would have been forwards. Point is luck runs out. We found some D-men but not that #1D. If we had, we’d have 30+ year playoff streak. Law of averages kicked in.

Not a good excuse. Great drafting and developing GMs have found defenseman all over the draft board, Holland has never been good at drafting defenseman for his entirety of being a GM. I think the lack of standards that Detroit fans have in general (and it shows in all their teams) is really disturbing.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Relative failure perhaps. If it wasn’t failure at D it would have been forwards. Point is luck runs out. We found some D-men but not that #1D. If we had, we’d have 30+ year playoff streak. Law of averages kicked in.

Larkin imo. Kronwall too. But for a long time our 1sts were either nonexistant or close to 2nds in actual value.

Getting Mantha after trading down was great as well. Even if Mantha is a 2nd line guy

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not a good excuse. Great drafting and developing GMs have found defenseman all over the draft board, Holland has never been good at drafting defenseman for his entirety of being a GM. I think the lack of standards that Detroit fans have in general (and it shows in all their teams) is really disturbing.

Measuring 29 teams against 1. Most teams have had more and higher picks. Nashville made some bad picks but had multiples, increasing odds. We’re in the same situation now. What have Chicago and Pittsburgh found the last decade?

 

[Heaton]

Measuring 29 teams against 1. Most teams have had more and higher picks. Nashville made some bad picks but had multiples, increasing odds. We’re in the same situation now. What have Chicago and Pittsburgh found the last decade?

Chicago and Pittsburgh have their lottery picks still, something Holland refuses to get. Everything I'm complaining about could be fixed by being bad for a few years. Instead, we're trying to be mediocre forever and ignore the formula that we used when we won cups.

 

[Eye of Ra]

he is the worst gm in the history of hockey.

 

[izlez]

As for your last sentence, that just further illustrates the fundamental lack of understanding this management team has at rebuilding a team.

Which is why I would LOVE to bash Holland, I just hate the arguments people make so I'm forced to defend him.

Guy is bad at drafting. He has drafted a handful of #6ish defenseman in 20 years. That is unacceptable.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Chicago and Pittsburgh have their lottery picks still, something Holland refuses to get. Everything I'm complaining about could be fixed by being bad for a few years. Instead, we're trying to be mediocre forever and ignore the formula that we used when we won cups.

What does it matter if we try to be mediocre when we end up sucking? I’m sure Arizona is trying to win the cup.

Bottom 6-7 isn’t mediocre in my book, but maybe my standards are higher.

 

[Red Stanley]

Chicago and Pittsburgh have their lottery picks still, something Holland refuses to get. Everything I'm complaining about could be fixed by being bad for a few years. Instead, we're trying to be mediocre forever and ignore the formula that we used when we won cups.

To be fair, we're not mediocre, just mediocre at being bad for a second year in row. That's mostly been due to our goalies stealing points. With Mrazek gone Coreau is likely to come in and remind us what crappy goaltending really looks like.

 

[Heaton]

What does it matter if we try to be mediocre when we end up sucking? I’m sure Arizona is trying to win the cup.

Arizona isn't a cap team.

Bottom 6-7 isn’t mediocre in my book, but maybe my standards are higher.

There's a big difference between being proactive and ending up being bad and maxing out your cap with veterans and being bad. I'm sure you understand that Toronto making the playoffs with a bunch of young kids and losing in the first round is completely different than making the playoffs with a bunch of veterans and losing in the first round. One is trending up, one is trending down.

Either way, I've actually come around a little bit on the idea that doing a full tank may not be the best thing, I do like the idea of maintaining some sort of winning culture and work ethic. But you need a GM willing to make tough decisions, I don't believe Holland is that guy, I've seen little evidence he's able to make hard choices.

 

[kliq]

Arizona isn't a cap team.



There's a big difference between being proactive and ending up being bad and maxing out your cap with veterans and being bad. I'm sure you understand that Toronto making the playoffs with a bunch of young kids and losing in the first round is completely different than making the playoffs with a bunch of veterans and losing in the first round. One is trending up, one is trending down.

Either way, I've actually come around a little bit on the idea that doing a full tank may not be the best thing, I do like the idea of maintaining some sort of winning culture and work ethic. But you need a GM willing to make tough decisions, I don't believe Holland is that guy, I've seen little evidence he's able to make hard choices.

I see what your saying prior to the bold, but I dont agree with the bold. What Holland did yesterday with Mrazek was definitely a hard choice. Moving a guy like that is going to get the ire of fans, and could come back to bite him in the ass. Moving Jimmy would have been the easy choice, not really many downsides to that one. Unless your definition of hard choices is just moving vets.

Remember, "hard choice" and "right choice" are not necessarily the same thing. They can be, but not always.

 

[Flowah]

What does it matter if we try to be mediocre when we end up sucking? I’m sure Arizona is trying to win the cup.

Bottom 6-7 isn’t mediocre in my book, but maybe my standards are higher.

Mediocre literally means average, middle of the road.

It can't be only teams that fit the exact average of the league that are mediocre. I'm willing to give a little leeway above and below average. We're mediocre. There's such little room between teams that maybe 15 teams fit in there with us. Then there's 3-5 true bottom feeders like Arizona, Buffalo. A few truly elite teams like the Lightning. Then some good, but not elite teams like Toronto. But we're in that mediocre pack above the bottom feeders yet.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Can people relax a little? Did anyone listen to Holland's interview today? I have no idea why the guy gets ripped apart. You guys just like to complain.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Mediocre literally means average, middle of the road.

It can't be only teams that fit the exact average of the league that are mediocre. I'm willing to give a little leeway above and below average. We're mediocre. There's such little room between teams that maybe 15 teams fit in there with us. Then there's 3-5 true bottom feeders like Arizona, Buffalo. A few truly elite teams like the Lightning. Then some good, but not elite teams like Toronto. But we're in that mediocre pack above the bottom feeders yet.

Why complicate things?
Bottom 10 = bad
Middle 10 = mediocre
Top 10 = good

Of course there’s seperation within tiers but this seems pretty simple and the way most people would break it down. That middle 10 mediocre tier is full of teams in the playoff battle. Top 10 is contenders or close to it. Bottom 10 is rebuilders, sellers and bottomfeeders.

I would hesitate to put us on the level of Philly, Anaheim or St. Louis. I think we’re much closer to Montreal, Vancouver and Ottawa. But that’s just me.

 

[Flowah]

Like many things it's a bell curve. There's more teams packed in the middle than there are elite teams or bottom feeders.

I think we're clearly distinct from the bottom feeders. We have literally more than 20 points in the standings on Arizona. That's an enormous gap. It's 1 point short of being as big as the gap between us and Tampa.

 

[Goalie guy]

So much wrong with so much of this, but I just really enjoy this.

We are a team made up of "kids" right now.
We are bad.
People STILL try to claim they were right that Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Athanasiou, Frk, Sproul, Ouellett, Jensen, Pulkinnen needed to be brought up FASTER....to help the team.


If they are bad now...how can you convince yourself that they weren't bad when they were younger? The tie never went to the veteran. These guys just aren't as good as you thought

Lol so what your saying is the guys Holland got really are not that good at hockey? And who is at fault for getting those guys?

 

[izlez]

Lol so what your saying is the guys Holland got really are not that good at hockey? And who is at fault for getting those guys?

It's Holland's fault.

I would love to talk about it sometime.

Instead, all we talk about is how Helm takes up too much cap space for all of the imaginary superstars that hit free agency.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It's Holland's fault.

I would love to talk about it sometime.

Instead, all we talk about is how Helm takes up too much cap space for all of the imaginary superstars that hit free agency.

Cap space can be used for trades and giving other teams cap relief in exchange for draft picks.

Also keeping someone like Helm long-term is not a good deal even if you have the money, and speaks to Holland's mentality if he isn't willing to let someone like him walk.

I don't know who argues that Helm kept us from signing elite free agents.

 

[izlez]

Cap space can be used for trades and giving other teams cap relief in exchange for draft picks.

Also keeping someone like Helm long-term is not a good deal even if you have the money, and speaks to Holland's mentality if he isn't willing to let someone like him walk.

I don't know who argues that Helm kept us from signing elite free agents.

I disagree with you. I think Helm is good at hockey.

but whyyyy are we so worried about this?

Cap space and draft picks are not good at hockey.

It's all irrelevant when Jonathan Ericsson is the best defenseman you've drafted in 20 years.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I disagree with you. I think Helm is good at hockey.

but whyyyy are we so worried about this?

Cap space and draft picks are not good at hockey.

It's all irrelevant when Jonathan Ericsson is the best defenseman you've drafted in 20 years.

I'm not "worried", I am commenting that it was a bad, unnecessary deal.

And cap space can lead to draft picks which lead to prospects which can lead to players who are good at hockey. They are important things to think about other than just who you have on your roster at any given moment. That's basic stuff you are just disregarding, here.

 

[Shaman464]

Can people relax a little? Did anyone listen to Holland's interview today? I have no idea why the guy gets ripped apart. You guys just like to complain.

Because if he were any other GM in the league he wouldn't get nearly as much benefit of the doubt as he has? Most GMs in any sport don't get to helm a team for a nearly a decade of decline.